WON 2010

[jdw]

Plus it's arguable that he was the best worker in AAA during the hot period of 93-95.

He wasn't. I'm not sure anyone makes that argument.

 

John

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

It's time for the 2010 election for the Wrestling Observer Newsletter Hall of Fame. This ballot is being sent out to major wrestling stars, past and present, major management figures in the industry, writers and historians.

Under which of these categories does Vince Verhei fall?

[Bix]

I would guess "writer" alongside such esteemed voters as Todd Martin, Dan Wahlers, and a bunch of people who write newspaper wrestling columns or are wrestling fans who happen to write for newspapers (like Houston Mitchell, and I have nothing against him but he clearly has a ballot because he's a legitimate sportswriter who happens to be a wrestling fan).

 

If he's considered a wrestler for the purpose of getting a ballot then I really want HOF voter "Hangman" Bruce Pobanz.

[Dan]

Does Babbysack vote?

[kjh]

That Jericho v. Sting comparison is interesting though I think Sting's year of not appearing int he ring is sort of slighted there since he appeared on multiple Nitros and the whole focus of many of the top rated and drawing shows of the year was "when will Sting show up?" Also I think Sting was a better in ring performer both career v. career and peak v. peak than Jericho. Largely irrelevant though because Jericho will go in as Dave actively campaigns for him every year.

The key difference between Sting and Jericho is a different career narrative, which the HOF voters aren't going to question much. Sting's narrative is largely "overpushed muscle man who never lived up to his potential, because he wasn't quite good enough", while Jericho's narrative is largely "ultra charismatic and talented all round performer held back by politics time and time again". Of course, at his peak Sting was hotter than Jericho ever was and got screwed worse at Starrcade '97 than he ever did, but that tends to be ignored because it doesn't fit the overarching narrative. Jericho's benefited a ton in the last couple of years from fitting the traditional Observer mold "Wrestler Of The Year", while the voters have ignored that the business has changed and the same template doesn't fit anymore. Sting's hurt a ton by his return being in a completely incompetent national promotion that no-one seriously pays attention to, so anything good he's done over the last 5 years will go completely ignored.

[rovert]

Just noticed Kent Walton, sweet. Isnt it his first time on the ballot?

[Bix]

I think so.

[kjh]

I'm amused by Steve Yohe's comments over at The OtherArena, where he admitted voting for Henri Deglane and Johnny Saint, while not knowing who Kent Walton was.

[tomk]

There's also the arguments about him changing the lucha libre style that I've read Kevin Cook make before that I'm not informed enough to let be made again, but the way he always described it was that Rey's time in Mexico alone qualified him for the HOF. I see a guy who has had great matches everywhere. If he has history as an international draw, even better.

 

The Cook argument (as I remember ) wasn't that his time in Mexico changed Mexican wrestling.

 

Rather that Rey's time in the U.S. has changed international wrestling. That when you watch contemporary Japanese wrestling, Rey's influence is strong. For better or worse you souldn't be talking about lucha-resu anymore but rather Americanizedlucha ( a U.S. style with lucha roots that is far more Rey than Juvi based)-resu as predominant style. And his U.S. run has been really influential in Mexico as well. [Cook made all these arguments pre-Jamie Noble reteaches Shawn Michaels how to work a "contemporary" "epic" main event and I could see someone making the argument that what was contemporary was AJ as processed through Rey v Juve. I wouldn't make that argument at all but...]

 

I don't care for Mistico, Marafuji or Tanahashi so maybe not historical influence in a "positive manner". But that was the crux of Cook argument.

 

Honestly, for great in ring performer and historical influence on the mainstream contemporary style I'd really like to see Hamada go in.

Although part of me thinks that Steve Williams getting in is the only way we might finally get that bio.

[Ditch]

pre-Jamie Noble reteaches Shawn Michaels how to work a "contemporary" "epic" main event

Wait, what?

[Bix]

Noble teaching Michaels his reverse figure four among other things.

[tomk]

There was a point where Noble started working with Shawn to make him more contemporary and was Pat Pattersoning some of his matches.

[Cox]

They can comment but it doesn't affect anything as far as I know.

Thanks.

 

If there are comments, are they included in the HOF issue when talking about that particular person? Or does Dave do an issue in effect saying "These guys are in; here's a short bio of their careers?"

 

 

He does a capsule of the guys that make it, sometimes he gets a little more involved if they were from a long ago era or that guy who was basically the El Santo of Argentina.

 

Or, if they're Konnan, he lets them write their own bio where they were responsible for every good thing that ever happened to the world up to and including the polio vaccine.

[jdw]

I'm amused by Steve Yohe's comments over at The OtherArena, where he admitted voting for Henri Deglane and Johnny Saint, while not knowing who Kent Walton was.

I think it points to what was an obvious flaw in how Dave counts votes, and one several of us have pointed out in the past:

 

People who don't know much about a "region" are allowed to vote in it.

 

Steve would cop to not knowing much if anything about Euro wrestling.

 

He does:

 

* like the Johnny Saint he's watched over the years

 

* know what's generally known by US historians about Deglane

 

But neither of those are that much. Watching a Johnny Saint tape or two doesn't really give you a good understanding of where Saint fit into British wrestling. And I don't know if there's a really strong Deglane bio out there giving a good enough overview on him to make a final thumbs up/down choice on him.

 

That's not saying that Saint or Deglane aren't worthy of going in. But I'd prefer to here from the "historians" of British wrestling on Saint, and who warrants being infront of him in the line. If Saint is the #5 candidate, then we really should make sure we get most of the 1-4 guys in first.

 

Dave is letting people determine whether they're knowledgeable enough to vote in a region. And that's just nuts. Ross and Heyman and Gabe really don't know dick about Japan or Mexico or British wrestling where they should be voting in it (pretending for a second that they have ballots). But Dave is allowing them to vote in it if they see someon they feel like voting for.

 

Dave is the one handing out ballots. He must know something about the people he's giving ballots to, and what they're knowledgable about. He should be telling them what they qualify for.

 

John

[Bix]

At least he made the regional stuff (theoretically) more clear on this year's ballot. Last year was...awkward. I presume that the new layout means that we don't get any bizarre situations like some Marc Rocco votes being counted for him as a Japanese star.

[jdw]

I actually believe that what he's doing this year is the *exact* same thing he did in counting votes last year. He's just being open about how he categoriez wrestlers.

 

I don't think he counted any of Rocco's votes as "Japan". We went around in circles last year trying to figure out how he was counting, and the problem was Dave Speak: he wasn't being clear at all.

 

John

[Bix]

I looked over last year's threads and it sure seemed like he was saying any potential "dual region" candidates could work that way.

[jdw]

I think when dropping things into a spreadsheet, it was pretty clear that everyone fell into a specific category.

[Al]

Quick thoughts on the candidates from a non-voter fan. I'm just hoping to start and stir discussion so please don't rip my head off.

 

Gene & Ole Anderson - The only tag teams in the WON Hall right now are the Road Warriors, the Freebirds, the Midnight Express and the Kangaroos. I just don't see the Andersons on that level. There are better teams who could go in first.

 

Carlos Colon - Gut reaction says no. Did he have a strong impact outside Puerto Rico?

 

Edge - No. I wouldn't dismiss him, but it's really too early to say.

 

Owen Hart - No. Despite the tragic death, really didn't have the body of work to merit induction.

 

Curt Hennig - No. Perhaps a strong candidate in some areas but his peak was awfully short.

 

Chris Jericho - Forced to say yes or no, I'd say yes. Jericho is a guy who ideally I'd wait a couple years on yet. You can always put him in later, but if you put him in prematurely you can't take him back.

 

Ivan Koloff - Tough call. Koloff could be anywhere from a non-Hall of Famer to perhaps the best candidate on this list. I'm thinking no but could be convinced otherwise.

 

Fabulous Moolah - I'd say yes on Moolah, which I know is controversial. My way of thinking is that she is a hugely influential trainer. A lot of people criticize her style of wrestling. It's not the most crowd pleasing. But with so many wrestlers who worked the Japanese style running into serious health problems, I can't fully criticize someone who trained a safer working style.

 

Pedro Morales - No.

 

Dick Murdoch - No. Not to dismiss Murdoch who was certainly a terrific wrestler. But he seems to me the kind of wrestler who defines the edge of the HOF line.

 

Rey Mysterio - Definite yes.

 

Rock & Roll Express - With the Midnight Express in, I wouldn't argue against the Rock 'n' Rolls.

 

Sabu - No. Influential and a hot act for a while, but his matches in retrospect haven't aged well at all. Beyond that, he was too much of a promotion jumper and never seemed to gain any solid momentum.

 

Sgt. Slaughter - I lean yes on Slaughter. Besides being a somewhat famous figure, he was a legitimately good worker in his prime and an underrated bump man even beyond his prime.

 

Jimmy Snuka - No. Very big star in 1982-84, but his value plummeted FAST.

 

Sting - Yes, and I'm biased. WCW in the mid to late 90s was a big deal. It seems to me that some of those guys from that promotion really should go in.

 

Mr. Wrestling II (Johnny Walker) - No.

[Dylan Waco]

Why did Colon need to make an impact outside of Puerto Rico? I'm not saying he's a guy that absolutely has to be in, but I'd vote for him for sure. Too many good gates.

[EricR]

I'm confused on that as well. Why are luchadors judged only on Mexico, and guys like Big Daddy judged only on UK, but Colon gets faulted because he was only successful on his home island? Isn't his kind of longevity even more impressive considering he never went anywhere to come back to PR "refreshed".

[Al]

I can go back and forth on Colon and he wouldn't be a bad entry. Maybe I was hasty on that one.

[S.L.L.]

Not directing this at Al, but with the HOF voters in general, it seems the one big sticking point with Colon was that he helped cover up Brody's murder. Benoit was voted to stay in the HOF after committing a double homicide, so really, there's no longer an excuse to keep Colon out. He's a star belonging strictly to one territory, but I'm not sure that any single-territority star approaches his level of significance. One of the few who does is Lawler, who was inducted in the first class. Honestly, I don't see the argument that keeps him out at this point.

[kjh]

From the file marked "boy is Chris Jericho completely overrated as a Hall of Fame candidate today":

 

--Which of these wrestlers do you see as the strongest Hall of Fame candidate?

Chris Jericho 58.2%

John Cena 22.5%

Mistico 5.4%

Bryan Danielson 4.7%

Edge 3.6%

Samoa Joe 3.2%

Yuji Nagata 1.9%

Hiroshi Tanahashi 0.4%

[Cox]

Also, LOL at Danielson ranking higher than Edge, not because I think Edge should make it (because I don't, fucker should be barely hanging onto the ballot) but because Dave has been pushing for Edge in the WON for much of the last year and so far he's received no traction whatsoever from his crew of fanboys, giving me hope he'll never be elected.