WON 2010

[tomk]

The population of Puerto Rico is close to 4 million, while there are about 20 million folks in Mexico City alone.

 

I think Colon belongs in but the comparison of Puerto Rico to Mexico is a bad one.

[tomk]

Also, LOL at Danielson ranking higher than Edge, not because I think Edge should make it (because I don't, fucker should be barely hanging onto the ballot) but because Dave has been pushing for Edge in the WON for much of the last year and so far he's received no traction whatsoever from his crew of fanboys, giving me hope he'll never be elected.

I don't put much value in the online polls at the Observer page.

 

That said there is some ridiculous disingenuous stuff in current Observer pushing for current guys.

 

The Hall of Fame is a hotly debatable topic because for most people, the past always seems better than the present, larger than the present and more real than the present. I always look back at the early 70s AWA, which was a very good promotion, but they probably carried less than two dozen full-time workers, and yet from that era, in the Hall of Fame we’ve got Nick Bockwinkel, Bobby Heenan, Verne Gagne, Superstar Graham, Wahoo McDaniel, Ray Stevens, Billy Robinson and The Crusher as regulars and people like Dick the Bruiser and Dick Beyer (as Dr. X) were also in during that era. Red Bastien, also from that period, is a strong candidate. But the point is, you’ve got nine guys from one promotion in that era as Hall of Famers. Sure, the company was successful, but it was by no means close to the most booming or hottest wrestling company of all-time, or even of its time. And when you look at the list of those nine, the only one you can even possibly say wasn’t a slam dunk pick is McDaniel. Today’s WWE is the only show in town on a major league level, not one of two or three dozen shows in different towns, is bigger than the AWA ever was, draws bigger, (now it’s not bigger culturally or on television in the same markets AWA was big in) and has tons more wrestlers under contract and tons more competition for the top spots. But I seriously doubt that many wrestlers from the current WWE roster will ever get in.

Jericho, as an example, tied for third with multiple world titles would be in the spot of a Flair or Kawada of the 90s and probably a Tsuruta or Choshu in the 80s, and probably a Bockwinkel or Jack Brisco in the 70s, and all those guys were no-brainers. It’s a hell of an argument.

 

But even from my perspective, having lived through the three decades you don’t get the feel of him as the same level of dominant superstar because of the way people are booked like the aforementioned people who were all complete no-brainers at the same stage of all of their careers. The even-Steven booking doesn’t give people the aura or feeling of being as big a stars as their predecessors, nor does the decrease in emphasis of the live shows in major cities. But the big difference that hurts modern candidates is the marketing of the promotion as the draw instead of the match and the stars.

 

Yet, in a flourishing business, and make no mistake about it, WWE today for a variety of reasons is more successful than almost any promotion of the past, you’d think the guys who have at the top of the totem poll for a decade no matter what the era in a company that hot should be considered.

The problem becomes at what point do you consider people? Waiting until they retire means in many cases you have to wait until guys are in their 50s or 60s, or until they pass away. It would mean Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan and even 69-year-old Dory Funk Jr., 71-year old Mil Mascaras and Abdullah the Butcher would still be ineligible.

Among other things:

 

Is the AWA run a big part of Beyer, Graham, Stevens, or Wahoo's candidacy? How much did it influence Heenan's? I mean Michaels was in the AWA too, I don't think it lead to any HOF votes.

 

You don't need to wait until retirement, but what exactly is the danger in waiting longer?

There is nothing that I can imagine Hogan, Flair, Dory, Terry , Mil or Abby doing know that would make them weaker HOF candidates.

Great Kojika, Gypsy Joe. Porkchop Cash, and Brett Wayne Sawyer are all still wrestling too. I imagine Dennis Stamp will take a booking too. I doubt anything they will do after they turned 50 will make them HOF worthy (outside of training).

 

I don't understand the urgency to get Edge into HOF. Why no urgency to get Bearcat Wright, or Enrique Torres?

[Bix]

That AWA bit is one of the weirdest things I've ever seen from Dave. It was the second biggest money territory in the US for a long time and was on fire during the period he mentioned.

[Loss]

I think his point is that WWE the past few years is hotter than early 70s AWA ever was, so why are so many guys from that era in and so few from this one being considered? What he missed and what Bix pointed out is that most of the names he listed had successful runs in other places as well. How central was the AWA run to their candidacy?

 

That's not to say that guys like Jericho and Edge wouldn't benefit dramatically from being able to work different territories and probably would have been very successful in the old system, but the HOF isn't about righting wrongs.

[KrisZ]

I think what Dave was meaning was that the wrestlers made the AWA back then but now it's the WWE name that is the draw.

[khawk20]

That AWA bit is one of the weirdest things I've ever seen from Dave. It was the second biggest money territory in the US for a long time and was on fire during the period he mentioned.

Dave always hated the AWA. He never understood how the AWA style stayed so popular for so long. It likely skews even how he looks at the greats that came out of the AWA before his time.

 

Anytime he mentions the AWA in any context, the facts vs. his opinion should be checked thoroughly before accepting the argument...if the argument seems to make sense to you to begin with.

[Wahoos Leg]

Wait, wait, wait, we're all ignoring the biggest revelation in these past few posts.

 

PORKCHOP CASH still wrestles?!?!

[kjh]

I think 2010 is a bit early to be complaining that not enough WWE stars from the past decade are in. It doesn't really jive with the facts either. Already in are:

 

Ric Flair

Hulk Hogan

Vince McMahon

Jim Ross

Steve Austin

Mick Foley

Chris Benoit

Shawn Michaels

Kurt Angle

The Undertaker

Paul Heyman

Triple H

Eddie Guerrero

The Rock

 

Certain to get in eventually:

 

John Cena

Randy Orton

Rey Mysterio

Chris Jericho

 

Should get in eventually:

 

Edge

Jeff Hardy

Batista

 

Will get in if Dave is stupid enough to put him on the ballot:

 

Brock Lesnar

 

I mean who else would Dave possibly want in. <_>

[Dylan Waco]

Is Jeff Hardy a better candidate on his own or with Matt? I can't really see voting for either I'm just curious what the consensus on that would be.

 

Orton and Batista will be interesting arguments when we get to that point. I doubt Dave will ever get in.

[Cox]

I'd have to think Orton and Edge are similar candidates. Orton is a better performer than Edge, though Edge has a better pedigree with the Observer crowd since he has fared better in the year end awards. Neither have any real qualifications for the Hall at this point other than "have been at or near the top of the card for a long period of time." Certainly, neither has really stood out that much as being anything other than a good foil for Cena. It's certainly way too early to tell in Orton's case, but he would have to seriously beef up his resume beyond "being a top guy in a company where that matters less and less" to deserve induction, but he probably has a better shot at deserving it than Edge, if only because he figures to be at or near the top for a really long time unless he goes batshit crazy (not impossible, of course).

 

Batista and Hardy...man, I am not seeing any real argument for either. Hardy's reign as a top guy was short, as was his reign as a top worker, and his forays into TNA make him look like a total product of the WWE machine since he can't be bothered to care or put on good performances outside of WWE. A year ago, he was arguably the #2 babyface in the business, ahead of Misterio and behind Cena, and now he's almost a total nothing guy on TNA, which is at least partly because he's wrestling for TNA but still. Batista won't have a lot of length as a top guy, and is considered to be a poor worker (not entirely deserved, IMO, he's at the very least very carryable) and plus the guy just seems to rub people the wrong way. If Dave ever puts him on the ballot, I can see him immediately falling off.

[Loss]

I mean who else would Dave possibly want in. <_>

Daniel Puder.

[Loss]

Is Jeff Hardy a better candidate on his own or with Matt? I can't really see voting for either I'm just curious what the consensus on that would be.

 

Orton and Batista will be interesting arguments when we get to that point. I doubt Dave will ever get in.

Matt and Jeff as a team definitely have a stronger case than Jeff by himself, and even the tag team argument is a little weak. Yes, they're probably the most over tag team in the history of the company, and yes they drew money, but WWE is a company that de-emphasizes tag teams and they did burn out quickly.

[Dylan Waco]

Biggest plus for Batista is that at various points he's been presented as the top star of a particular brand. Since the end of the attitude era only four guys can really say that - HHH, Taker and Cena - and they are all in or definitely will be in. With the exception of Cena,Batista is the guy most people think of when they think of this era. Not saying he should get in,but perception plays a role.

 

I actually think the argument for the Hardyz as a unit may be better than the argument for Batista. Sold lots of merch, were a huge part of the WWE boom period (maybe the biggest non-main eventers?), had a ton of good matches during their various comeback tours, et. Jeff on his own has those same plusses plus his 07-09 run which was positive in a variety of ways, but he's also got the huge negatives of the TNA runs.

 

Another interesting guy is the Big Show. Could any WWE guy have drawn as well opposite Mayweather? I've seen that argued but I don't believe it. I wouldn't vote for him for HoF, but I think he's a better candidate than Jericho is.

[Loss]

Yes, Matt's a nutcase and Jeff has drug problems, but I think the bigger issue with them fizzling out so fast was that I'm not sure how long tag teams can stay fresh when they aren't headlining. The Austin/HHH feud was actually a good idea, as they were popular and in theory Austin beating them up would draw great heat, but I don't think they were ready to be at that level yet, and HHH's Jeff Hardy burial at the time didn't help at all. They tried multiple times, but there was no money in a breakup feud because people liked them as a team. Had WCW still been strong when they peaked, they probably could have jumped there around early '02 when they had the falling out and were sent to OVW and had a good run, because they would be in a new environment and would be fresh.

 

The reunion in 2006-2007 should have been pushed much harder than it was. It worked, but they should have been headlining shows against Edge and Orton at the time, who were the top heels and were teaming, and maybe even working six-mans with Cena in PPV main events. But WWE is a company overly focused on singles matches on top, for better or worse, so it's not something that really fits their vision unless HHH is teaming with Michaels.

 

But really, and maybe I'm wrong here but I don't think I am, the Hardy Boys reunion in '06 could have had every bit the traction the DX reunion did had they been given the same opportunity and put in a headlining spot. But one problem at that time was that the pendulum swung so far in the babyface direction, and there weren't very many strong heels in the company (which just further puzzles me why DX vs MNM was never tried, but that's another thread).

[kjh]

Regarding Batista and Jeff Hardy, I think the dearth of high quality modern day HOF candidates, means that they've got a good shot of eventually getting in, as the bar for induction consequently drops.

[Dylan Waco]

The bar has already plummeted. The inclusion of Angle (and Ultimo) seemed to coincide with a massive reduction of IWC interest in the HoF. Part of that was the absence of a grand debate figure (Michaels being the most obvious example), but I think a bigger part was the fact that Angle was so obviously a weak candidate in the eyes of so many people that the HoF became an overnight joke. Think about it - how much effort would it really take to come up with fifty wrestlers/wrestling personalities more "worthy" of being in the HoF than Angle? Not very. Hardy (or the Hardyz take your pick) and Batista would both be on that list.

 

On the Hardy Boys reunion, I think it easily could have had the same traction as DX. The MNM matches were good, they came across as big stars, they certainly sold a shit load of merch and got massive reactions. They were an act that probably never realized their full potential as draws.

[Matt D]

Neither here nor there, but coming back to watching wrestling last year, I was floored by how over Jeff was in the late spring/early summer.

[rovert]

Neither here nor there, but coming back to watching wrestling last year, I was floored by how over Jeff was in the late spring/early summer.

He was the most popular wrestler by far going on internet trending so there you go.

[tomk]

The bar has already plummeted. The inclusion of Angle (and Ultimo) seemed to coincide with a massive reduction of IWC interest in the HoF.

I think the Benoit murders may have balanced things out the other way. As I get the sense that the U.S. voting is getting stricter (who is so important that even if he killed a six year old and a woman, you still couldn't have a wrestling hall of fame without him). If Hogan slaughters his family and a Jewish community center, you still can't have a HOF without him. That's a tougher standard. Get the seense that it is too tough for Meltzer's taste...but still.

[tomk]

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v32/n15/steven-shapin...last-cream-puff

 

Neat recent review from the London Review of Books on French cuisine and how the cooking world has changed in last decade or so. I don't know if anyone here other than jdw's is interested in this type of thing.

 

But I think the discussion of dog shows and horse races is worht thinking about in the context of wrestling HOF. I see it as a horse race, it's not clear to me if that's the way it's currently understood.

[jdw]

Cool...

[S.L.L.]

But I think the discussion of dog shows and horse races is worht thinking about in the context of wrestling HOF. I see it as a horse race, it's not clear to me if that's the way it's currently understood.

How so? I think I agree with you, but there are a few different ways that could be read.

[kjh]

The winner of a horse race is the fastest animal, but in a dog show the best of breed isn’t the fastest, or the biggest, or the hairiest, but the truest to type. The top beagle is reckoned to be the essence of beagleness, and the best dog in show is the animal that is more true to its type than any other is to its.

I interpreted it as "The winner of a horse race is the fastest animal, but in the Observer HOF dog show the best candidate to voters isn’t necessarily the best worker, or the biggest draw, or the most charismatic, but the truest to type". Take Chris Jericho, for example, who was only taken seriously as a HOF candidate after he started playing modern day Nick Bockwinkel. I mean he's had a decent return run where he's reinvented his character, but he's nowhere near as hot a star as he was at the peaks of his previous run.

[Sean Liska]

Really? He's been a consistent main event figure over the past two years, which he really wasn't before he left in 05. He used to be a guy that was kept mostly at the IC title level with the occasional main event spot thrown in, like his title run in 01-02. Since turning heel in 08, he had the feud with HBK, main event PPV programs with Batista and Cena, the Smackdown Mania title match with Edge this year, and now he's in the middle of the SummerSlam main event hype. I think he's a much stronger candidate than before he left.

[kjh]

He's been a semi-consistent main event figure in a close to rock bottom period for PPV business. He's not a big house show or merchandise draw like Cena or Rey either. The feud with HBK is certainly a feather in his cap, but his main event PPV programs with Batista and Cena did pretty poor business, which led to him being shuffled back into a supporting upper mid card level role. Being in the fourth biggest match at Mania and playing second wheel to John Cena in a fourteen man tag aren't really achievements that dwarf what he did before he left in 05 either.