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#41 MJH

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 12:04 PM

Of course. But the only difference between Warrior/Sherri and Warrior/Heenan is that Bobby was male and Sherri female. Hell, Sherri was actually presented as a wrestler - as much as being a woman's wrestler means anything in the States. There's a big difference between hitting Sherri, who'd interfere constantly and kick guys when they were down, and beating up a woman for the sake of beating up a woman. You missed the Richard Dawkins inspired atheist, by the way. ;)

#42 El-P

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 12:26 PM

There is a difference, and that's why it was "acceptable". But still, I have an issue with a 270 pds male babyface doing anything physical to a woman. I did not have a problem with Sunny getting slopped. That's basic comedy stuff, and that was a great payoff. Sherri getting bullied, well, even when Terry Funk does it, I don't like that very much. Of course she was so good she would make it fun to watch thanks to her bumping and selling. But in strict kayfaybe sense, I didn't like it, it felt wrong. The valet is interfering ? Fuck up her guy. Make her look stupid.

#43 MJH

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 01:15 PM

I understood what you meant, and that's fair enough, everyone has their individual level of where their lines of acceptance lie. I haven't got a problem myself with a guy hitting a woman if he'd hit a guy for doing the same thing. Maybe I'm alone in that. I don't know if I could do so personally (and I've had girl friends stare all hell at me for saying so) but I'm not going to disagree with them, either, when they say "anytime you treat women as weaker than men you're being sexist". I've certainly no problem admitting I know a fair amount of girls who - even if I were to try and fight them - could handily kick my ass. There was a match in ARSION some time, I forget when or where, only I'm pretty sure it involved Apache, Hidaka I think, and maybe Mika Akino. Presumably the other girl was one of the Apache girls, and as far as I recall, they didn't play up the gender thing. Apache wasn't doing his surprise kisses or anything; they just did their match as if it were 4 guys or 4 girls, and I thought it was great that they did.

#44 El-P

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 01:45 PM

I don't know if I could do so personally (and I've had girl friends stare all hell at me for saying so) but I'm not going to disagree with them, either, when they say "anytime you treat women as weaker than men you're being sexist".


That's PC feminism bullshit. Women are physiologically weaker than men. Of course women who do combat sports or who are though girl could kick my weak ass in a snap, but on average, women are smaller and weaker than men, it's just a fact. Thousands of women die every year because they are beat down by men. Sometimes you just can't argue against nature.

And I know what I'm talking about.:( I've slapped my girlfriend under the influence of alcohol (both of us drunk). She didn't mind, because she's that kind of girl, but still, makes you feel like a complete and utter shitbag.
I've also been in the situation where a hysterical woman under the influence can drive you crazy to the point of you wanting to beat the crap out of her just so she would calm the fuck down and shut up. The only reasonnable thing a man should do is punch the wall, hurt your fist and get the fuck out of the room. Or if you're able to control yourself, physically hold her down without hurting her until she cools off, which usually isn't easy, and results in you getting hit multiple times.

You don't hit a woman, period.

There was a match in ARSION some time, I forget when or where, only I'm pretty sure it involved Apache, Hidaka I think, and maybe Mika Akino. Presumably the other girl was one of the Apache girls, and as far as I recall, they didn't play up the gender thing. Apache wasn't doing his surprise kisses or anything; they just did their match as if it were 4 guys or 4 girls, and I thought it was great that they did.


I don't have an issue with those kind of serious intergender matches because they are treated like just an athletic contest, and if done right, especially when you work a lighter lucha influenced style, it can work fine. Those ARSION matches with Apache were lot of fun. I loved him working with his daughters too.

#45 Kronos

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 01:29 PM

Mark Henry vs The Rock, Judgment Day: In Your House 10/18/98

Henry opens with a terrible promo dedicated to Chyna, including a poem expressing his desire to have children with her. One thing Henry had going for him then -- and he sometimes still does today -- is that when he's not being a badass angryface, he often has an expression that seems to say that he can't believe he's getting to do this.

Rocky comes out guns blazing. He looks thicker here than in his chiseled later years. Henry doesn't know many moves, as JR and King repeatedly point out. It's not a squash match -- if only because he gets the pinfall following interference by D-Lo -- but Henry does essentially get beaten up for 6 min.

Mark Henry vs Undertaker, SD! 2/10/06

Solid TV match. Henry shows himself to be a monster early on, particularly in a great shoulder block spot that puts 'Taker on his ass. They try to trade hiptosses, but Taker can't lift Henry. It takes Henry to slip up and crash to the floor, which leaves him dazed enough for Taker to get the momentum (watch for a gorgeous kick to Henry's head). Henry does a great job of selling the shots to the head, stumbling around the ring. He gets a few good shots in, but eventually Taker has enough momentum that he gets a pinfall after a chokeslam. It's a bit weird that he can't do a hiptoss early, but he can do a chokeslam? That's Taker for ya, though.

There's a chaotic run-in from MNM. It's amusing how much smaller Nitro and Mercury are compared to Taker. Davari gets chokeslammed from about 7 feet in the air. And then Angle comes into the ring and german suplexes everyone. A silly ending, apart from Davari getting slammed. But Henry looked really good in this match. He felt a bit like Vader, selling well for his opponent but still coming across as a Supertough Big Guy.

Mark Henry vs Undertaker, Unforgiven 9/16/17

I am not sure of the story here. I guess Henry put Taker out of action for several months? (the recap is clipped on the video I am watching) This match is Taker's big return. Start s out strong, with Henry backing down from the faceoff and getting punched like a heavybag in the corner. Henry kick's Taker in the face and is rewarded with a serious look which screams "shoot pissed off". Taker doesn't look as fluid here as he did in the Feb 06 match. The momentum is off. Things wake up towards the end when Taker starts to hit his signature spots leading to a nearfall. I like Taker breaking out of the bearhug by choking Henry. Very nice modified Last Ride for the win.

It's not a sloppy match, but it's a bit of a boring one for a PPV Main Event.

Aside: I love JBL on commentary. The crowd is pretty quiet, and he sells it like a sign of respect. "They are just sitting here watching." Normally, I enjoy him for his insults, but that was some good broadcasting right there.

Aside Two: Undertaker has perhaps the most epic entrance in rasslin history. And it takes frakkin forever. I always fast forward it these days.

Mark Henry vs Batista, SD! 1/18/08

I like Batista a lot more than I used to do, though this match isn't anything special. Some pretty basic back and forth. Batista does this bizarre shoulder attack in the corner where he kicks his leg back behind him first. It looks like a knee strike, but the announcers call it a shoulder strike (and I am inclined to agree). There's a good spot where Dave goes for the pin after a spear, and Henry doesn't just kick out; he throws Batista off of him.

Throwaway 6 min match, but the crowd is lively. BTW, what is with Henry squeezing his eyes shut tightly to show he's angry?

Mark Henry vs HHH, RAW 6/23/08

Apparently, Henry is only good for 5-6 min on free TV, because that's all he keeps getting. This match is basically Haitch's babyface formula of getting beaten up for awhile and then coming back to win at the last moment. But it works, keeping the crowd involved. Henry throws a Vader Bomb and goes for the pin with that goofy smile I mentioned above.

I like how much Henry is willing to sell for his opponents. Watching these matches, I don't think it ever makes him look weak. And it allows a bit of drama.

Mark Henry vs Rey Mysterio, SD! 4/29/11

Crazy Heel Henry is pretty awesome, and modern Rey is a good punching bag to get a heel over (see also: Batista last year). Fun squash that builds on the story of Henry's heel turn and then feeds into the Cody story as Rey is stopped from his comeback by a run-in.

Terrific energy from Henry.

#46 Kronos

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Posted 13 November 2011 - 07:21 PM

Unforgiven 1999
Really solid PPV almost top to bottom. And Vince has got to dream of crowds that blazing hot. King's juvenile commentary got annoying at times. Also random: D-X were really obsessed with dicks and gayness. From X-Pac's bronco buster to "suck it" to Road Dogg acting like he was gonna buttfuck Edge. Very weird.
Val Venis vs Steve Blackman - fairly forgettable opener.
Mark Henry vs D-Lo - I was shocked at how good this one turned out to be. Henry moves like a guy half his size, and it's really the first time I've ever liked Brown.
Chyna vs Jarrett - JJ obviously carried the match. But he bumped really well for Chyna, and I had always heard how he refused to make her look good. Fun ending, especially with Mae and Moolah "suplexing" Jeff. I am not comfortable with Chyna beating up the ref afterwards. It's not a good guy thing to do, and she was definitely the face in the match.
Acolytes vs Dudley - acceptable but dull tag match. I have never been a Dudley fan, except in their feud with Beer Money.
Ivory vs Luna - hardcore match took place backstage. Physical and more vicious than some IWA-MS matches I've seen.
NAO vs Edge + Christian - great fun, and I can't believe how OVER Road Dogg was. E&C were actually a bit bland here.
Bossman vs Al Snow - dog kennel from hell. DUD. Easily the most boring match of the night.
Jericho vs X-PAC - nice fast paced cruiserweight exhibition.
6Pack Challenge - insanely great! Edge of your seat excitement and great performances from everyone. Even a bit of payoff with the refs on strike angle they ran all night. It never ceases to amaze me how well Kane and Show moved in those days. And again, Vince should be so lucky to get crowds half that excited these days.
Interesting that Taker was on the poster. Did he get hurt, and then not come back until BikerTaker after the first if the year? I know they lost Austin not long after this. Hard times for them.

#47 artDDP

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Posted 13 November 2011 - 09:43 PM

Yeah, Bulldog was a late scratch for 'Taker from what I remember. Similarly, wasn't X-Pac a late scratch for Ken Shamrock, who I think just quit the promotion a week before that match? I remember Wade's review of that match for some reason. He was upset that X-Pac audibly called a spot and Jim Ross brushed it off as "talking trash". He said in this day and age the announcers should just say that the wrestlers are calling spots.

#48 Kronos

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Posted 13 November 2011 - 09:57 PM

Yeah, Bulldog was a late scratch for 'Taker from what I remember.

Similarly, wasn't X-Pac a late scratch for Ken Shamrock, who I think just quit the promotion a week before that match?

I remember Wade's review of that match for some reason. He was upset that X-Pac audibly called a spot and Jim Ross brushed it off as "talking trash". He said in this day and age the announcers should just say that the wrestlers are calling spots.


They sold it as Shamrock being injured. I can't possibly imagine Shamrock would have had a better match with Jericho than Waltman did, so it's for the best. I didn't notice the spot being called. But your brain does become tired 2+ hrs into a show.

#49 Ricky Jackson

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 12:35 AM

What the hell, I'll fire this puppy back up with:

Bob Backlund vs Harley Race, WWF title vs NWA title, 9/22 1980 MSG

Just watched this for the first time. Really good match. I'm surprised it doesn't get pimped more often as one of Backlund's better MSG matches. Great crowd heat, no commentary, both guys juice, and yes the finish is weak, but its WWF title vs NWA title, so you know it's not going to end decisively. And for whatever it's worth, nobody could work a headlock spot like Bob. Definitely track this one down if you're a fan of Backlund and/or Race.

#50 NintendoLogic

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 01:26 AM

Jake Roberts vs. Ricky Steamboat, MSG 5/19/86
Jake Roberts vs. Ricky Steamboat, Spectrum 5/31/86


I forgot that Steamboat's original WWF theme was Sirius. That's such a kick-ass theme for the intro to a grudge match. Steamboat looks AWESOME waiting for Roberts in MSG. These are essentially the same match with the same ref spots and the same finish. The Spectrum match is a bit longer for no other reason than it's slower than the MSG match, but the brawling looks a thousand times better than MSG because of the camera set-ups. One of the things I noticed when we did the WWF poll over at Smarkschoice was how shitty the MSG camera work was, but here it makes Steamboat look like a woman. Everybody knows that you have to shoot punches and most other contact in wrestling from an angle that hides the daylight, but it seems as though the MSG guys didn't know how to shoot wrestling. It's a shame really because MSG usually had better heat than Philly. Neither match is great, but fun in a continuation of the feud kind of way. They have a pull apart at the end where they keep doing Lou Thesz press takedowns and punching each other while midcard acts coming running out to separate them. That reminds me of how excited I used to be when people came running out to help. There was always that anticipation of "Who's it gonna be? Who's it gonna be?"


Have you seen their 8/9/86 Boston Garden match? The last time I saw it, it blew me away. I'd rate it as a top 20 match in company history, possiibly top 10.

#51 goc

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 07:41 AM

Yeah, Bulldog was a late scratch for 'Taker from what I remember.

Similarly, wasn't X-Pac a late scratch for Ken Shamrock, who I think just quit the promotion a week before that match?

I remember Wade's review of that match for some reason. He was upset that X-Pac audibly called a spot and Jim Ross brushed it off as "talking trash". He said in this day and age the announcers should just say that the wrestlers are calling spots.

That's retarded. Why the hell would you want the announcer to say "I think we're about to see Jericho DDT X-Pac here since we just heard him call that spot" Sorry that shit only works for JCW

#52 ohtani's jacket

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 02:47 AM

Ricky Steamboat vs. Brutus Beefcake, 5/26/85 I've been meaning to watch this for a while as Beefcake had a shocking decent run in 1985, but this was dreck from Steamboat. There are some guys who can go through the motions and still be reasonably entertaining but not Steamboat. His schtick was so heavily built on fired up babyface selling that if they're not working at a certain speed and adding fuel to the fire his shit looks hokey. We'll call it the Tito Santana conundrum, in that Tito needed to be fired up for his matches to be good, but unlike Steamboat, Tito's selling wasn't goofy looking when the match was tepid.

#53 goc

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 05:17 AM

Ricky Steamboat vs. Brutus Beefcake, 5/26/85

I've been meaning to watch this for a while as Beefcake had a shocking decent run in 1985, but this was dreck from Steamboat. There are some guys who can go through the motions and still be reasonably entertaining but not Steamboat. His schtick was so heavily built on fired up babyface selling that if they're not working at a certain speed and adding fuel to the fire his shit looks hokey. We'll call it the Tito Santana conundrum, in that Tito needed to be fired up for his matches to be good, but unlike Steamboat, Tito's selling wasn't goofy looking when the match was tepid.


This post makes me think a discussion about guys who were really only good at working one pace or style would be an interesting topic.

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 08:38 AM

Roddy Piper vs. Randy Savage, Hamilton, Ontario 12/13/86 Man, was Piper over as a babyface or what? Super fun houseshow match between these two. It was wrestled pretty much perfectly for a houseshow audience with a lot of big, easy to follow action. A little on the short side, but plenty of intensity. Crowd got what they wanted even if Piper didn't win the belt.

#55 ohtani's jacket

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 09:49 PM

The Piper/Orndorff feud Roddy Piper vs. Paul Orndorff, MSG 7/13/85 Roddy Piper vs. Paul Orndorff, Capital Centre 7/20/85 Roddy Piper vs. Paul Orndorff, Philadelphia 7/27/85 Roddy Piper vs. Paul Orndorff, Boston 8/3/85 Roddy Piper vs. Paul Orndorff, Philadelphia 8/24/85 Roddy Piper vs. Paul Orndorff, SNME 10/5/85 This was a heck of a feud. The mic work from Orndorff to set up his face turn was incredibly lame, but from New York to Washington through to Philly and Boston this feud was hot. What impressed me most was that while all the matches were short, intense, violent brawls and they all followed the same basic match structure there was very little in the way of repetition of spots. It was only really by the time they got to Boston that they started rehashing some of their earlier stuff. The first three matches from July are fabulous. The MSG match is probably the most complete of the three in terms of a full match, but the Cap Centre and Philly matches do a great job of continuing where the MSG match left off. The only real fault in the three match run is that the finish to the Cap Centre match is a bit awkward, but they make up for it with some wild post-match antics. The second Philly match is basically the set-up for a Piper/Orton vs. Orndorff/Sammartino program that I wasn't interested in watching and the SNME match rather than delivering a payoff is a truncated version of their houseshow circuit. I guess the lack of a blowoff match is fairly typical with 80s WWF, but it would've been nice to see a decisive outcome before Orndorff moved on to his Hogan program.

#56 ohtani's jacket

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 01:52 AM

The Piper/Snuka feud Jimmy Snuka vs. Roddy Piper, St. Louis 5/5/84 Jimmy Snuka vs. Roddy Piper, Philadelphia 7/7/84 Jimmy Snuka vs. Roddy Piper, MSG 8/25/84 Jimmy Snuka vs. Roddy Piper, Boston 3/2/85 Jimmy Snuka vs. Roddy Piper, Philadelphia 3/17/85 This stood in sharp contrast to the Piper/Orndorff feud in that it began with a classic angle but the matches were piss weak. The problem here was two-fold. Firstly, no matter how over or popular Snuka was, he didn't have the charisma or acting skills to get across his anger. The stone cold stare he gives Piper before their MSG match is kind of cool, but it doesn't translate into an electrifying match. It was almost like he was taking a cool, calm, calculated approach, but would end up getting his ass kicked by Piper. Orndorff was awful on the mic and his acting seemed forced or unnatural at times, but he at least got across that he was full of rage and that he wouldn't let anyone collect the bounty on his head no matter how fucked up he was at the end of the match. The other problem was that Piper was in full on stooge mode for most of the matches. Instead of the violent brawls he had with Orndorff, you'd get stereotypical heel/face schtick. The feud should have been bloodier and more intense than Piper/Ordnorff, but it was painfully run of the mill. The angle at the end of the MSG match is well done and makes Piper seem like a maniac, but that's about the only highlight from this feud.

#57 Jingus

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:42 AM

The other problem was that Piper was in full on stooge mode for most of the matches. Instead of the violent brawls he had with Orndorff, you'd get stereotypical heel/face schtick. The feud should have been bloodier and more intense than Piper/Ordnorff, but it was painfully run of the mill. The angle at the end of the MSG match is well done and makes Piper seem like a maniac, but that's about the only highlight from this feud.

Check out the tag match from MSG with Piper/Schultz vs Snuka/Andre for something more along the lines of what you wished for.

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:46 AM

Roddy Piper vs. Bob Orton Jr., Philadelphia 11/8/86 Roddy Piper vs. Bob Orton Jr., SNME 11/29/86 These were pretty disappointing considering their break-up was a pretty big deal. The Philly match has its moments when they're brawling and with some of the offense Orton brings, but I wasn't feeling the Piper as face and Orton as heel dynamic, and Piper ran through him fair too easily. The SNME was the usual five minute nonsense. Roddy Piper vs. Adrian Adonis, Buffalo, NY 12/27/86 Roddy Piper vs. Adrian Adonis, Toronto 2/15/87 The Buffalo match was again pretty much a perfect houseshow match. Roddy started out like a house on fire until Hart managed to turn the tables. Piper then sold for some time while the crowd screamed for him to make a comeback and Adonis bumped big for the finish. Simple stuff, but well done. The Toronto match had a whole bunch of interference from Hart, Roddy being blinded by Adrian's perfume and a whole bunch of other carry on. It was the kind of match that made me a fan of wrestling as a kid as the action was simple to follow and the heels and face were so clearly delineated. Not a great match or anything, but a lot of fun and better than most Adonis matches from this era or Piper matches for that matter. Roddy Piper vs. Randy Savage, Miami 1/22/90 Pretty typical Macho King Randy Savage match. Roddy's physique looked different during this comeback. I couldn't figure out whether he was out of shape or it was some kind of side effect on being on the gas. The long hair look didn't really suit him, I thought. Piper got his hands on Sherri towards the end of the match and the camera man gave us a super close-up of her thong. Amazingly, both Mooney and Lord Alfred Hayes refrained from commenting on it. Panty shot was probably the highlight of the match. Roddy Piper vs. Don Muraco, Boston 11/1/86 Roddy Piper vs. Don Muraco, Maple Leaf Gardens 11/16/86 Man, this Muraco matches were the worst. Fucking Don Muraco. Everytime you think it's going to the one Don Muraco match from the mid 80s where he doesn't suck ass and everytime he's awful.

#59 ohtani's jacket

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:47 AM

The other problem was that Piper was in full on stooge mode for most of the matches. Instead of the violent brawls he had with Orndorff, you'd get stereotypical heel/face schtick. The feud should have been bloodier and more intense than Piper/Ordnorff, but it was painfully run of the mill. The angle at the end of the MSG match is well done and makes Piper seem like a maniac, but that's about the only highlight from this feud.

Check out the tag match from MSG with Piper/Schultz vs Snuka/Andre for something more along the lines of what you wished for.


All right, I will. I've been mostly concentrating on Piper singles matches, but if there are any good tags fire away.

#60 ohtani's jacket

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 05:18 AM

I didn't buy Piper and Schultz doing that to Andre. I did like the Piper/Orton vs. Snuka/Tongan Kid tag, however. Roddy Piper vs. Bruno Sammartino, Boston 12/7/85 Roddy Piper vs. Bruno Sammartino, cage match, Boston 2/8/86 These were better than they had a right to be. It was basically the same sort of stooging performance from the Piper/Snuka series, but Bruno was a lot more believable dishing out a beating to Piper and the matches were pretty fun. Roddy Piper vs. Rick Rude, MSG 9/30/89 This had the same kind of problems as the Toronto match I talked about earlier in this thread. Piper vs. Rude was a good idea for a feud, but instead of doing the short, frenetic brawls that have been entertaining me over the past few days, they'd start out going hammer and tongs, then Rude would take control of the match and do all of his restholds. Piper would fight back, the match would be thrown out in inspid fashion, they'd brawl about ringside a bit and nothing would be settled. Only the first few matches are worth watching, unless you're a glutton for Rude's camel clutch.




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