Loss Posted February 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 I like the idea of giving the people what they want. They'll probably never do it again because they overlearned the ending of WM X-7, but the show ending with Cena laying Rock out when Rock offers a show of respect would be a great way to launch a big money heel Cena run, and if they wanted to, they could build to a Cena/Rock match at WM 28. If not, it would still work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditch Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 I like the idea of giving the people what they want. They'll probably never do it again because they overlearned the ending of WM X-7, but the show ending with Cena laying Rock out when Rock offers a show of respect would be a great way to launch a big money heel Cena run, and if they wanted to, they could build to a Cena/Rock match at WM 28. If not, it would still work. Or build to Cena vs Taker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 By the way, does talking about Wrestlemania 27 make anyone else feel old? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomk Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 I like the idea of giving the people what they want. They'll probably never do it again because they overlearned the ending of WM X-7, but the show ending with Cena laying Rock out when Rock offers a show of respect would be a great way to launch a big money heel Cena run, and if they wanted to, they could build to a Cena/Rock match at WM 28. If not, it would still work. People keep on talking about this big money Cena heel run, but who is the "money" face they have to chase after him. Orton? A returning HHH? Both of those are pretty shitty options. Steve Yohe: I agree that booking is a lost art. As someone who followed wrestling in the early 60's, it's strange how many fans think "turning" wrestlers should be a major part of all storylines. To me it's a major weakness if you keep using "turning a wrestler" every time you run out of ideas. It's been done too much, and has no meaning... I don't believe in changing major faces. They are too important and hard to find. I would never do it. No one turned Gagne, Watson, Robert, Carpentier, or Sammartino. Guys like that were the back bone of the sport. And once you do turn them, you can not turn them back & get the same trust from the fans. It will be gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 There are a lot of holdover feuds they could do while they build someone up. Cena vs Lawler, Cena vs Rey, Cena vs Bourne, Cena vs Morrison, Cena vs Undertaker and Cena vs Orton is a year's worth of programs alone. (I'm not crazy about the last two either, but they would fill time just fine.) I just know that WWE is a company that for whatever reason likes to push wrestlers the opposite of crowd response. Punk was getting huge cheers a few months ago, then they brought him back as a heel. And I like Punk in that role and think he's well suited for it, but it's another example of how the company puts guys in the roles opposite of what the fans want to see them in. Punk is good enough to overcome that, but not everyone is. But building up Punk as the big babyface to knock off Cena would work. I liked the divided Cena crowd reaction in 2006-2007. It was clearly working. Business was good, his merchandise sold well and his matches had genuine heat. In 2011, business has dropped a lot. How much of that can be pointed to Cena turning fans off? Yes, he's still their biggest draw, but for a historical comparison, Ric Flair in 1988 was the NWA's biggest draw. That doesn't mean that Flair's portrayal wasn't actively turning people off of the promotion. I think Flair in '88 and Cena in '11 is an apt comparison. It's not that either guy has worn out his usefulness on top. It's that he's cast in the wrong role. I agree with Yohe's general point, but I don't think it applies to Cena. If Cena was getting more universal response and business wasn't dropping every year, I would agree. But he's not an iconic, once-in-a lifetime babyface. He is, though, a special wrestler who people genuinely care about who people will pay to see if he's portrayed properly. Just like Flair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditch Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Were those old-school guys on TV for a good 20-30 minutes every week? It's *really* hard for a gimmick/character to stay fresh/interesting in the modern era. I think a Cena turn could be used to elevate a younger star, or several. Plus, as I just said, Cena vs Taker, which is just about the only matchup anyone will really buy as putting Taker's streak in peril. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 I will also flip the question: With Cena continuing as he currently is, what money matches are in his future? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawren Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 I seriously doubt a Cena turn will ever happen. They chickened out of even hinting that he might do a few bad things when he was forced to join Nexus and they wouldn`t even let him disappear off TV (he could still be mentioned by commentary and video packages but they wouldn`t even go that far) for one week. He`s not turning. Re: money matches. Cena vs Taker if Taker can do it. Cena vs Punk would be good if they could build to it. The main problem here really is the booking, not Cena - if they had the guts to have Cena get beat down for a couple of weeks without beating up everyone every week without trouble he`d have a ton of money matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomk Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 So I really liked the Cena v Khali/Umaga period. And yes in the world of “wellness” it is harder to do main event face v disposable monster. As without drugs it is harder to build a monster. Plus without blading it is harder to sell the power of a monster. Still it is the WWE, what they do best is Hogan v Heenan and stable of disposable heels or Austin v Vince and his stable of disposable heels. I mean we talked about transition from Mcmahon to Helmsley earlier, and it is possible that they currently have no one who knows how to do WWF style main event booking. But it is a formula with a good track record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 So I really liked the Cena v Khali/Umaga period. And yes in the world of “wellness” it is harder to do main event face v disposable monster. As without drugs it is harder to build a monster. Plus without blading it is harder to sell the power of a monster. Still it is the WWE, what they do best is Hogan v Heenan and stable of disposable heels or Austin v Vince and his stable of disposable heels. I mean we talked about transition from Mcmahon to Helmsley earlier, and it is possible that they currently have no one who knows how to do WWF style main event booking. But it is a formula with a good track record. Well the the problem becomes a reluctance to use managers, no? 2011 could be centered around Cena vs Cole and his stable of disposable heels, but I feel like they'll never pull the trigger on that and take him out of the booth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Why use Cole in that role when Vickie is right there and is easily the most over heel in wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 I tend to see her more with one guy than with a whole stable (Though I know she was with Chavo, Edge, Ryder/Hawkins at one point but did she actually come out with the Edgeheads for their matches?). I also think Cole would be somehow fresher and it'd get him out of the booth which is desperately needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 I just know that WWE is a company that for whatever reason likes to push wrestlers the opposite of crowd response. well they did listen to crowd response to Orton and it's backfired as he's lost a lot of momentum. They just should have left him playing the same character like they did with Cena in 06/07 It's tricky for promoters because it's not always good for business to listen to crowd pops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rzombie1988 Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Cena's big match problem is the same as every other wrestlers in the company. Every big match has been done on RAW for FREE and for what? .1's. Re: Monsters - They don't have to be steroided up. Bundy, Andre, Kamala, Earthquake and a whole host of others were monsters that probably never touched a steroid their whole time there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Evans Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 I will also flip the question: With Cena continuing as he currently is, what money matches are in his future? Cena/Del Rio, Cena/Taker? Besides Rock/Cena, that is probably the only money match left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 By the way, does talking about Wrestlemania 27 make anyone else feel old? Yes it does. First WM I saw was WM 8. I didn't miss one until 15. Then I was gone and only watched WM from the mid-late 00's. Time flies. And really, WM doesn't seem that special anymore despite the settings being much more spectacular than when I used to watch it (the dreaded 90's). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Re: Monsters - They don't have to be steroided up. Bundy, Andre, Kamala, Earthquake and a whole host of others were monsters that probably never touched a steroid their whole time there. That would take getting some fat guys with actual characters and not cookie cutter well built guys with short tights and crew cuts. It won't happen in the current environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 I liked the divided Cena crowd reaction in 2006-2007. It was clearly working. Business was good, his merchandise sold well and his matches had genuine heat. In 2011, business has dropped a lot. How much of that can be pointed to Cena turning fans off? Yes, he's still their biggest draw, but for a historical comparison, Ric Flair in 1988 was the NWA's biggest draw. That doesn't mean that Flair's portrayal wasn't actively turning people off of the promotion. I think Flair in '88 and Cena in '11 is an apt comparison. It's not that either guy has worn out his usefulness on top. It's that he's cast in the wrong role. I agree with Yohe's general point, but I don't think it applies to Cena. If Cena was getting more universal response and business wasn't dropping every year, I would agree. But he's not an iconic, once-in-a lifetime babyface. He is, though, a special wrestler who people genuinely care about who people will pay to see if he's portrayed properly. Just like Flair. I agree that it's an apt comparison, but from my perspective it actually backs up Yohe's and tomk's point. Cena's momentum fell when he started being booked like Ric Flair in the late 80s, a guy so charismatic and great on the mic that he can job to anyone and retain his heat, while the focus was on having the show revolve around the jealous booker. In 2008, he jobbed to Orton on two consecutive PPV events, then eked a victory in a curtain jerker with JBL and then jobbed to Triple H, JBL and Batista in three straight PPVs, which killed his heat after his 2008 surprise win at the Rumble blew the roof off the Garden. If Cena's miscast as a bayface, then that's because he's done far to many meaningless jobs at the wrong time, since his 2005-2007 peak. well they did listen to crowd response to Orton and it's backfired as he's lost a lot of momentum. They just should have left him playing the same character like they did with Cena in 06/07 It's tricky for promoters because it's not always good for business to listen to crowd pops If they listened to the crowd response, they'd have turned him after his Royal Rumble win in 2009. Instead they waited a year after his babyface momentum reached boiling point and the turn was poorly executed in a feud with damaged goods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Re: Monsters - They don't have to be steroided up. Bundy, Andre, Kamala, Earthquake and a whole host of others were monsters that probably never touched a steroid their whole time there. That would take getting some fat guys with actual characters and not cookie cutter well built guys with short tights and crew cuts. It won't happen in the current environment. Back to Vickie, this is actually the one way I think she'd work as Bobby Heenan. Give her all the cookie cutter well built guys with short tights and crew cuts. Give her four or five of these guys and have it look like she's trying to turn the WWE into this drab kingdom of these guys for her own personal reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Re: Monsters - They don't have to be steroided up. Bundy, Andre, Kamala, Earthquake and a whole host of others were monsters that probably never touched a steroid their whole time there. That would take getting some fat guys with actual characters and not cookie cutter well built guys with short tights and crew cuts. It won't happen in the current environment. Back to Vickie, this is actually the one way I think she'd work as Bobby Heenan. Give her all the cookie cutter well built guys with short tights and crew cuts. Give her four or five of these guys and have it look like she's trying to turn the WWE into this drab kingdom of these guys for her own personal reasons. The only problem I see with that is WWE actually is trying to turn itself into a drab kingdom of those guys. Speaking of, is that a Johnny Ace thing where the entire roster has to look like an Ambercrombie and Fitch catalog? Vince has always liked big jacked up guys, everyone knows that, but he used to have room on the roster for fat guy monsters like the ones mentioned before. I don't even recall a fat guy on the roster since Umaga, and you have to think even that was only because of his family ties. I guess you might be able to count Husky Harris but he wasn't a monster and he just got skull-punted out of storylines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 No one has ever said Johnny Ace doesn't know where his bread is buttered. He knows Vince likes that look, so he knows that the more guys he signs with that look, the more he'll be viewed in a favorable manner. That's my theory anyway, as Ace's booking was so drastically different at the tail end of WCW that no way is it him imposing his own values. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Wasn't WCW starting to look the same toward the end with similarly built dudes? They didn't all have the same haircut (that's definitely a WWE/Vince thing) but it seemed like the Power Plant was turning out guys who were pretty close build wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 I also liked the Cena feuds with Umaga and Khali. I'd like to see the WWE bring back A-Train, as he has improved considerably since his WWE days, and the dude is huge. Tomko fits the WWE bill: big and covered with tats. I'd like to see Daniel Rodimer in the WWE too even though he hasn't been around for a couple of years now. The only money making performances for Cena is against Taker, Sting (if he comes in), The Rock, and probably Hogan (if he ever comes back). Cena has faced nearly all of the other big names the WWE has: Miz, Sheamus, Orton, Edge, etc. The problem I see with Taker/Cena is if they feuded around WrestleMania, everyone knews that Taker wins at WM, then Cena gets the next PPV victory by default, and they might take it all the way to SummerSlam where Cena would likely win. But if they feud, one of them has to be the heel (obviously). A few episodes of Raw ago, The Miz made fun of Cena, calling him corny. That is one of the reasons I haven't enjoyed seeing Cena as much. His act and gimmick as a One Man Army has gotten terribly stale. His one-liners are poop jokes, which is ghey, and he is seemingly unable to learn from previous mistakes. I mean, Cena pokes the proverbial bees hive every week, gets beaten down, makes a comeback, gets beaten down again...rinse and repeat. Basically, he is a stupid face that is always putting his neck on the chopping block. The bookers need to do something different with him, like maybe how they've pushed Austin and Orton as tweeners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Wasn't WCW starting to look the same toward the end with similarly built dudes? They didn't all have the same haircut (that's definitely a WWE/Vince thing) but it seemed like the Power Plant was turning out guys who were pretty close build wise. The Jindrak/O'Haire group, yes, but you also had people like Jason Jett and Christopher Daniels getting signed, Helms getting repackaged, Chavo getting a nice push, etc. They also were at one point were going to have Van Dam when it was obvious ECW was dying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 If they listened to the crowd response, they'd have turned him after his Royal Rumble win in 2009. Instead they waited a year after his babyface momentum reached boiling point and the turn was poorly executed in a feud with damaged goods. they waited too long but still as of past September he was getting enormous face reactions and was killing everybody. And in a rare occurrence in WWE booking actually went over in the PPV 6 way to get the title after dominating everyone on TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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