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How do you self-identify as a wrestling fan?


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#21 Resident Evil

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 02:42 PM

But other stuff apparently hasn't aged well at all. I showed them Malenko/Guerrero from ECW, and it bored them to death. They seem kinda unimpressed by flippy cruiserweights in general, whether it's NJPW juniors or lucha or whatever.


What do they think of current stuff that is a continuation of cruiser/juniors stuff? In other words, your typical ROH or DG or PWG stuff?

I wonder if juniors-style spot wrestling has now gone so far beyond 90s juniors spot wrestling that stuff from 15 years ago is boring.

Big heavies like Hansen are drmatic and theatrical, so they're not terribly far removed from say Taker-HHH.

John


Personally, I find there is a big difference between ROH and say DG. PWG kind of has the same kind of feel as ROH does.


90s workrate style is passe among *some* viewers in 2011. Those would be a small subset of fans.

Go to a wrestling show and the same number of fans in the crowd eat up "workrate style" as the did in the 90s. Go look up Alan 4L's list of **** matches in 2010 and you'll find workrate all over it. Alan isn't alone... in fact more fans like what he likes that fans follow the Anti Moves Movement.

Before anyone tries to say that everyone in the 90s loved workrate style, you'd be wrong. Anyone remember those Wrestling Classics posters who hated "flippy floppy" wrestlers? There have always been guys like that who hated Rey vs Psic because they weren't Ric Flair stooging for Tommy Young.

I'll go to a show on Saturday night and I guarantee you that they will be creaming in their pants over workrate. And despite it being a small hole in the wall, there will be more people in that building than regularly post here... or frankly most boards on line other than the biggest of the big like DVDVR and WO-4. And again, even in places like that you'll find workrate lovers. Someone tell Rob Naylor that the workrate he loves is passe.

We all like to project our own opinions, and those of the circle we run in, onto a larger mass. We often make a mistake when doing that.

John


This is all true. People who complain especially if it is against the consensus (even if they're wrong) stand out more. Sometimes they can also shout their opinions louder and because their opinions are more against the norm they bring attention to them with other people debating them. This can give a sense of perception that their opinions may be right due to importance.

#22 Bob Morris

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 03:04 PM

GH is right. Nobody here is "just a wrestling fan." That being said, most of those who post here are willing to keep an open mind about things and go back and watch matches again to see if there was something they missed. I used to fall into that trap of believing that only certain wrestlers were truly among the great workers, that the guys who were losing steam during the Monday Night Wars must have always sucked, and that the guys who could pull out all these eye-popping moves must belong among the best in the business. Now, upon re-watching matches and looking back at what actually worked in wrestling, I've realized that's not necessarily the case. I've come to realize that a guy who can do a ton of moves isn't automatically a great worker and that the best workers were those that did the most with the moves they used. I've also realized that, when it comes to drawing power, charisma is a major selling point, and when it comes to in-ring work, you've got to be able to get the fans caught up in the moment. Even with the rise of the Internet and more admission in the wrestling industry that everything is a work, it's still possible to get fans caught up in the moment and forget that they happen to be watching a work, and instead think about how much they loved a match. I do think a lot of opinions today have been shaded by what was presented during the late 1990's. Things like what was going on in ECW, the stuff that ended up on WCW programming, and the stuff that came during WWF's Attitude Era period were certainly unique at the time, but not all of it holds up well. Yet some people act like the product just needs to be made even edgier than it was back then. More to the point, I think the biggest mistake some of the folks who wrote during the Monday Night Wars period was this: They assumed, because they had gotten older, the pro wrestling product needed to cater to _their_ tastes now that they were older. They forgot that what really helps pro wrestling is, as your current audience ages, you build a new audience. Whether you go with the young kids/teenager market from Rock N' Wrestling or the teen/young adult market from the Attitude Era, that's where you need to go to build a new audience. Yet I read many reviewers today and they act like the product needs to cater to their interests specifically. Rather than simply say than John Cena is poorly booked when better booking means he could so much more from a business perspective, they blame Cena for being a bad worker (and while I don't watch much of the current product, I can say from what I've watched from Cena, his in-ring work is not the problem). And much of my dislike for that goes back to how I used to be when I wrote for wrestling websites (and I'll admit much of my writing was pretty bad). Anyway... I think there are a few folks out there who have really lost touch with what really makes the pro wrestling world go around. True, many of those who present the product today have lost touch with that as well, but it doesn't help when those who write about it today miss the point about how the product should be presented to maximize fan interest in the product and to build a new audience.

#23 goodhelmet

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 03:46 PM

No one here is "just a wrestling fan". We are wrestling obsessed super nerds who can write pages upon pages about a single match. We argue for hours, sometimes weeks over what is the best match, wrestler, year, angle, promotion, era, etc.

I am a fan of sports teams and movies and musicians. With wrestling, I am fucking sick with obsession.


I'm also totally in the closet now. I wasn't in college or high school. I went to a bunch of indy shows in college for god's sake. But now, totally closeted. It's a "Don't talk about the war." sort of thing whenever I'm with a college friend I went to shows with. All cost-benefit.


My closet is the internet.

#24 jdw

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 06:12 PM

No one here is "just a wrestling fan". We are wrestling obsessed super nerds who can write pages upon pages about a single match. We argue for hours, sometimes weeks over what is the best match, wrestler, year, angle, promotion, era, etc.

I am a fan of sports teams and movies and musicians. With wrestling, I am fucking sick with obsession.


I do the same over sports and movies. Listen to sports talk radio and you'll here folks doing the same thing about their local sports teams.

I don't think any of us said we're "casual wrestling fans", akin to a casual sports fan who might go to Dodger Stadium twice a year and watch 10 of the 162 games on TV.

But I've watched:

* at least 95% of the Lakers game this year
* all but 3-4 Duke games this year, 1-2 of them which weren't available on the tube
* I suspect every ManU game this year that's available with 1 possible exception

Those are the three teams I follow rather strongly.

In contrast:

* I haven't ordered the AJPW 80s set despite being a hardcore of an AJPW fan
* I have about 500 dvds sitting around collecting dust to be watched... eventually
* I have to be dragged to the PWG show this weekend, while it was easy get me to a Kings game a few weeks ago... and I don't even follow hockey

The first one I want badly, but I also know that it would just go in the pile with the ones in the next group... I don't want to order it until I can carve out time.

On the other hand, my dad and I are planning a trip to see a game at Old Trafford. I have no wrestling trips similar planned, and doubt I ever will again.

Perhaps one will say I'm a hardcore / smart / smart fan of ManU / the Lakers / Duke. But really... I'm not. There are folks who have season tickets to Old Trafford. I don't. There are guys who pay thousands to watch the Lakers. I watch Lakers games on TV. Watching Duke games is nothing: Bruce watches them all as well, as do lots of people in the Carolinas.

Folks watch Raw and Smackdown every week. 4 hours of wrestling a week, 52 times a year. Hardcore / Smart / Smark?

I watch one hour of Castle 22-24 times a year. Hardcore / Smart / Smark Castle fan? Or just someone who follows it.

Do we invest a lot of time talking about wrestling?

Sure. But when I was involved in a online baseball league for six years, pretty much every day... I did the same. None of us involved were really hardcore "gamers". We just had a fun league, were semi-competative and liked talking about it / participating in it. A far cry from those dude on the annual Madden show on ESPN. :)

We are just wrestling fans. On a scale of 1 to 100, we are in the upper quarter in terms of time we spend on it. Some of us more than others. Lord knows, I've watched more hours of The Mentalist this year than pro wrestling, and just did a Top Chef-a-Thon to finish the last season and haven't done anything remotely the same for wrestling in more than a year. :)

Will: you might be beyond a "just a fan" with the amount you watch and all the sets you put together. But the rest of us? Not really different from someone who is a Baseball + Football fan who watches as much of his favorite teams in those two sports. If you followed Kris Z's facebook, you'd see him morph from UNC hoops season right into Braves season... which morphs into Falcons season, with loads of comments about both. The brain has the capacity to follow a lot of shit. :)

John

#25 goodhelmet

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 06:32 PM

You have 500 unwatched wrestlig DVDs. You just spent a bunch of time on a pragraph trying to convince people you are just a fan. You have your own wrestling message board.

#26 smkelly

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 07:06 PM

We are just wrestling fans. On a scale of 1 to 100, we are in the upper quarter in terms of time we spend on it. Some of us more than others.

I'm a huge wrestling enthusiast, but you're well above me. You have a larger collection, have been watching longer, and know more stuff than I do. Look at some of your posts for example - on CMax you and Ginnetty are discussing footage in complete/incomplete form, which is beyond the scope of my fandom. You routinely post Machiavellian-esque lists of matches. You may not think you are a super-fan, but I would believe the contrary. Since you used a number scale, I'd be like a 70-75ish, whereas you're closer to 90ish, and someone like Lynch would be at 100. Haven't you flown to Japan to watch wrestling?

You have 500 unwatched wrestlig DVDs. You just spent a bunch of time on a pragraph trying to convince people you are just a fan. You have your own wrestling message board.

Will has you there, man.

#27 Death From Above

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 07:44 PM

But I've watched:

* at least 95% of the Lakers game this year
* all but 3-4 Duke games this year, 1-2 of them which weren't available on the tube
* I suspect every ManU game this year that's available with 1 possible exception


Just as an aside personally I think there's a huge difference between being fans of a club that plays a sport, and being a fan of a sport. Similar to within wrestling how there are probably 5-10K people sitting in the crowd at Wrestlemania that are Undertaker fans and are really on there for The Streak match, then won't watch Raw for like 6 months (or some other prominent example).

I always have a hard time adding 2 and 2 and ending up with 4 when someone tells me they're a big hockey fan but "I didn't watch the Stanley Cup playoffs after my team got knocked out". I wouldn't miss a Stanley Cup final game for anything short of a family funeral.

A lot of this has to do simply with time constraints. There are a lot of people that would watch more of (insert sport here, or wrestling) if time allowed it but simply can't. So they follow one club, or federation, with religious fervor. At the end of the day a lot of them turn out to be bigger fans of that one club than of the sport as a whole.

In the last 12 months, I attended every Edmonton CFL home game personally. Our family (specifically my mother) has had season tickets since before Commonwealth Stadium even existed, and that was built in 1978. I wasn't even born until 1981. As far as I can figure, I've never missed a home game. Like, ever. So I'm clearly a fan of the club, but it doesn't end there for me.

I also watched every single game of the CFL season on TV (which is possible with an 8 team league), with the only exceptions being a couple I would have missed because I was in the process of going to the stadium in Edmonton in games that were part of a double header (which can't really count as a "miss"). I did the same last season too. I was also catching (on average) 2 or 3 games of NFL on Sundays, plus Monday Night Football, plus all the NFL playoffs. I also watched a few of the college bowl games, though I've long since given up trying to understand all the conferences and follow all the political bullshit about which school got stuck in the wrong bowl this year.

So I watched a lot of football.

I'm a real hardcore fan of the sport to the point that I am dedicating a serious portion of my free time during a year to it, beyond a most likely objectively reasonable amount. Those two seasons in Canada and the USA have some overlap, but realistically that's what I'm doing with my Thursday-Monday nights (and Sunday afternoons) for about half the year, give or take.

There are a lot more people that would call themselves "football fans" that only follow one team religiously, plus probably catch the Monday Night game. There were plenty of Eagles fans that couldn't stand the thought of a Packers/Steelers game in the playoffs, for example. They are probably the normal ones, I suppose. Just as there are millions that are just watching WWE, and then moving on with the week, probably even many that would love some of the stuff we all have dug into over the years, but they have most likely neither the time nor motivation to go far enough to find out.

I think we're clearly on another level than the normal fan.

Not saying this applies to you personally in any direct way, merely a sub-point of the current discussion relating wrestling fandom to mainstream sports fandom.

#28 goodhelmet

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 07:46 PM

I need to retract some of my argumentative statements since the post is "how you see yourself". I shouldn't judge others on how they see themselves, only how I perceive them.

#29 Death From Above

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 07:52 PM

Yeah let me be clear I am not trying to knock anybody here either. I mean clearly even if I was, it would be a rather distinct example of the pot calling the kettle black here. Just making an incredibly long-winded observation, and hopefully the point didn't get lost in all that.

#30 goodhelmet

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 08:50 PM

I just re-read your post and I can see why not having a circle of friends to watch wrestling would hurt your ability to enjoy it. Hell, I was supposed to have 4 friends show up for Mania on Sunday. 1 showed up. However, I have made friends on this board and through trading. Hell, I raised over $500 for a buddy with cancer last year from the tape trading community. I made a post in the trading forum about the incredibly nice people I have met through wrestling. I talk to Naylor and Schneider nearly every other day. I call my buddy Baker nearly every day without fail on my way home from work. It's a strange wonderful thing when the wrestling nerds become your friends.

#31 Bob Morris

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 09:17 PM

I need to retract some of my argumentative statements since the post is "how you see yourself". I shouldn't judge others on how they see themselves, only how I perceive them.


I still don't think your "none of us is just a wrestling fan" is necessarily wrong. We can all be called passionate about pro wrestling to some degree... some of us may be more passionate than others, but it's certainly something that interests us to the point that we go beyond just talking about which wrestlers we think are cool or which matches we thought were awesome.

#32 Tim Evans

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 09:26 PM

I think the only thing that has changed for me from when I first started watching wrestling(1995) to now is I just have more options to watch. Back in the day, My friends and I were huge WWF marks and that was really the only wrestling we watched. I started getting into WCW for the Luchadors in 96 and I was a huge fan of Randy Savage and still am. Now in 2011, I watch more wrestling now than I did when you had hundreds of hours of stuff on cable. You got Lucha on the computer, WWE shows, WWC, Youtube, Will's DVDS etc. I've also gone to more shows now than ever. Just bought a ticket to go to Smackdown on May 3rd. When Wrestling was really hot, I only went to maybe 2 shows a year. Just this year, I've been to at least 7.

#33 tomk

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 10:47 PM

"Freak"

#34 Coffey

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 11:47 PM

I am more pessimistic than optimistic. The things which I enjoy, I am often lambasted for on-line as it seems to differ from the norm. I don't hate Triple H and actually think he's really good. I have never liked Rey Mysterio (or most Cruserweights, or Lucha Libre in general). Although I am not a fan of the "WWE style" so to speak, I do think it is unbelievable for wrestlers to be normal looking guys that you would see on a college campus. It is why I struggle to get into a lot of Independent promotions, like Ring of Honor, because I can never take a Jack Evans or Amazing Red seriously. I think talking, especially in the United States, really matters more than the in-ring action a lot of the time (although both are obviously important) and it's a big reason why I have never been super high on Dean Malenko, Chris Benoit or the like. Which is odd because I do like a lot of Puroresu, despite the language barrier.

I first started watching professional wrestling sometime during the build-up to Wrestlemania V. I distinctly remember the Mega-Power splitting and Savage getting jealous at Hogan carrying Miss Elizabeth to the back. So sometime around that Saturday Night's Main Event is when I started watching. According to Wikipedia, Wrestlemania V happened April 2, 1989, so I guess that means I have been watching wrestling for about twenty-two years now, which puts me at seven years old when I started watching, which sounds about right.

I first got on-line at the end of 1998 and I remember being confused by all the hate thrown toward both Kevin Nash and Goldberg. That was when everything changed, really, including my perspective and a lot of my opinions. The more information available to you, I don't know, it's kind of hard to explain. Once you start listening to shoot interviews and reading about the backstage stuff, you even find yourself watching the on-screen product differently. On more than one occasion, when watching wrestling nowadays, I will see someone like, let's say Alberto Del Rio. He wins the Royal Rumble to win a title shot at Wrestlemania. Wrestlemania comes and he curtain jerks and loses. So the first thing I think is "maybe he failed a wellness test." That shit would never have crossed my mind without the internet, obviously.

I find myself going back and watching a lot of older stuff as I am generally disinterested in the current product. I was completely apathetic for Wrestlemania this year, however I am highly entertained by going back and watching old One Man Gang, Adrian Adonis, Butch Reed or Jim Duggan stuff. Not only that but when I was growing up, I did not really realize how good I had it. The undercard was full of people like Curt Hennig, Rick Rude, Ted DiBiase, Ricky Steamboat & Randy Savage. Nowadays, the top of the card is people like John Cena, The Miz and Kane. It's just two different worlds.

I would like to think that I have not been persuaded negatively by differing viewpoints on the internet, but over time, I most certainly have. I like to think that my thoughts, ideas, opinions and whatnot are all just me being me and having my tastes change over time, but those tastes changed because of reading or hearing insider shit, you know?

A lot of the time, one of my biggest downfalls, is that I get too...passionate, I guess you could say, when defending my viewpoints. Sometimes, I'm not even sure...I know viewpoints and opinions are all subjective, but when someone has the complete exact opposite opinion to me on everything I think I'm being trolled, or that they're irrational or whatever, but all arrows in my head point to them being wrong. Obviously an opinion can not really be wrong, it's an opinion, but it just seems way too coincidental. I can't tell when people are just fucking with me because I'm easily riled up or when they honestly just believe everything that they type. It's why I've been banned from pretty much every forum I have ever posted on!

I have been to a lot of shows, spent a lot of money on wrestling, love talking about wrestling and still even get together with friends for wrestling events but I almost feel embarrassed if a non-wrestling fan finds out that I'm a fan. It usually leads to ridicule and it's hard to defend when their idea of wrestling is just whatever Vince McMahon presents on Monday Night.

So, I'm not sure if that really explains who or what I am in regards to being a fan, but I wouldn't rule out the fact that now I just am out of habit anymore.

#35 Jingus

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 01:46 AM

I never *ever* understood the love for Sakura Hirota. Ever.

Well, it's been oft-said that comedy is the most subjective thing in the world. Personally, I've never understood why so many people insist that Bill Hicks was some kind of revelatory genius. The stuff Hirota does just looks funny to me, it's hard to explain.

What do they think of current stuff that is a continuation of cruiser/juniors stuff? In other words, your typical ROH or DG or PWG stuff?

Dunno, we've never really talked about that. They do an amateurish little podcast reviewing WWE/TNA shows, and everything else is just random matches I've been showing them on Youtube. The superindy companies are all very careful to make sure that none of their trademarked footage ends up on there, so the subject rarely comes up. They seem pretty neutral on the X Division, if that helps, in a sort of "well, that was kinda cool... now onto the next segment" sort of way.

I wonder if juniors-style spot wrestling has now gone so far beyond 90s juniors spot wrestling that stuff from 15 years ago is boring.

Part of it seems to be the "competitive sport" aspect of some of those matches. The younger fellows seem to prefer a recognizable heel/face structure to their matches, and don't much like the J-Cup style of Guys Doing Movez. And anytime the match starts with the traditional "kill ten minutes doing random mat wrestling", it loses them right from the beginning. They can appreciate the big flips and bumps, but they want the match to have more story to it than a lot of the spotty junior stuff of that era. And yeah, I'm sure that long years of having flyers like Styles or Mysterio on their screen every week has probably numbed them to the trailblazers of the past. It's an uphill battle just trying to convince them about all the stuff which Sabu popularized, let alone anyone else more obscure than him.

(And incidentally, they love Tiger Mask/Dynamite Kid. Those matches were easily the best-received cruiserweight work that I've shown them so far.)

Big heavies like Hansen are drmatic and theatrical, so they're not terribly far removed from say Taker-HHH.

Kind of, but they still want action. Tonight we saw a Hansen/Misawa match where they both loooked kinda lethargic and spent half the time sitting around in headlocks, and the kids could definitely tell that this wasn't either man's best work. They overall seem much less impressed by 90s New Japan than same-era All Japan, the likes of Muta and Chono have mostly gotten an "yeah, that was okay" reaction. But it's not just the size that counts; give 'em something like Hokuto/Kandori (also tonight) and they loved it, in an awestruck sort of "damn, that had to hurt" kind of way.

#36 El-P

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 04:51 AM

I never *ever* understood the love for Sakura Hirota. Ever.

Well, it's been oft-said that comedy is the most subjective thing in the world. The stuff Hirota does just looks funny to me, it's hard to explain.


Yeah, Sakura was funnier (or less annoying) than most comedy workers in joshi, but that doesn't mean much to me. The fact that she is *loved* just baffles me. Then again, I always thought GAEA as a whole was the most overrated joshi promotion ever, despite being the most popular at one time. ARSION, Jd', JWP and AJW big matches smoked GAEA.

(And incidentally, they love Tiger Mask/Dynamite Kid. Those matches were easily the best-received cruiserweight work that I've shown them so far.)


That is very surprising.

#37 Resident Evil

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 05:19 AM

No it's not very surprising. It's to be expected.

#38 El-P

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 05:30 AM

No it's not very surprising. It's to be expected.


Considering Jingus said they're down on most cruiserweight matches, no it's not.
But your reply was.

#39 Resident Evil

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 06:04 AM

No it's not very surprising. It's to be expected.


Considering Jingus said they're down on most cruiserweight matches, no it's not.
But your reply was.

No actually, it is to be expected even with what Jingus said about them being dowon on other cruiserweiht amtches.

#40 jdw

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 09:06 AM

You have 500 unwatched wrestlig DVDs. You just spent a bunch of time on a pragraph trying to convince people you are just a fan. You have your own wrestling message board.


I have 500+ unwatched non-wrestling disks... and that's not an exageration. I just got the entire collection of Weeds, they're just sitting on the shelf still in the shrink wrap... and there's only a 50% change that I'll watch them before 2011 is up. The Cracker disks that I'm watching now are probably 3 years old, and I was susprised they were still in the shrink wrap when I pulled them off the shelf.

I'm just now reading my birthday present from my girlfriend... from last year. My birthday is coming up in a couple of weeks, the second book in the series has just been released, and she'll be getting it to me... lord knows when I'll get to it because there are another 30-50 new books on the shelf that I'm slowly working my way through.

I picked up my sub to the WON when Misawa died. I *just now* referenced the Thanksgiving Shows story over in another thread here because I just now clicked on that issue. The Mania issue that someone referenced in a response? Haven't even clicked on it. Probably skim a couple issues every other month. Yes, a total waste of money when you read something that little.

I own a wrestling site where we talking about sports just about every day, and wrestling as a side item. :)

Those 500 disks? They've been picked up over 5 years... probably more.

Again, people seem to think there are only Casual Fans and Batshit Crazy Hardcore Fans. No, there aren't. There's a wide range of fans, from casual fans who really aren't much of wrestling fans to guys like you and Alan 4L who are wrestling fans 24/7. :)

John




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