Tony Schiavone and early 90s WCW announcing

[Victator]

On one TBS show from 88 Jim Cornette goes on this tirade about Bobby Fulton. He finishes with hoping Bobby Fulton's mother died. Tony responds with a shocked "For goodness sakes Jim." Which I thought sold it better than him getting overly indignant.

 

I hated Ross working with heel announcers. He rides them so much you start feeling bad for the heels.

[jdw]

Lord I hated Jesse in WCW. Sounded at the time like a guy enjoying cashing a check.

 

There's a chunk of Jesse in the WWF that doesn't hold up great simply because it's not as "fresh" as it was back in the 80s when we were watching it, and for the fact that something like early Vince is more interesting or things like the Dick Graham & Kal Rudman team at the Spectrum was so wildly campy that the Vince-Jesse campiness isn't quite as campy fun anymore. That said, he did seem engaged in what he was doing. He wanted to get over, he pretty much nailed his Heel Commentator role, and he frankly did get over WWF Product as part of the show. In WCW, it didn't feel as much like Jesse cared/worried about getting over WCW Product.

 

John

[Gregor]

Right, and Tony left for the WWF in the late 80s.

Oh, oh, OH. I see now - sorry, Cox. I thought you meant that it took Schiavone almost a decade to finally work the Guatemala line in (I read "made that call" as the choice he made as that guy's lifeline), which would have been hilariously petty (well, even more ridiculously petty) and kind of pathetic.

[ButchReedMark]

but the best announce team was the Lance/Freebirds team.

Not enough is said about Jimmy Garvin on colour. I reckon he's fantastic during that period with Lance.

[artDDP]

I used to have an old WCW Magazine where Tony Schiavone said at one of the Spring Break-Out shows (most likely 2000) that he got a major contact high from someone sitting behind him during the telecast. He said he began to laugh at everything, but considering he thought "hardcore" matches were hysterical I'm not sure there'd be much of a difference.

 

My impression of Tony was that he seemed really good as the guy with the microphone conducting pre- and post-match interviews but being the lead play-by-play guy wasn't his calling. It became more apparent during the late 90s and onward as he seemed to be only capable of really describing and getting over simpler Crockett-style matches and angles and not the more edgy NWO and luchadore stuff.

 

He seemed really, really, really pumped during the introduction to SummerSlam 1989. Was this his first appearance with the WWF?

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

No, he was at Mania V.

[shoe]

I liked the Ross/Caudle team.

[Sean Liska]

My impression of Tony was that he seemed really good as the guy with the microphone conducting pre- and post-match interviews but being the lead play-by-play guy wasn't his calling. It became more apparent during the late 90s and onward as he seemed to be only capable of really describing and getting over simpler Crockett-style matches and angles and not the more edgy NWO and luchadore stuff.

I thought Tony was great at selling the NWO angle. He came across as a guy genuinely worried about losing his job, and seemed legitimately overjoyed whenever WCW had any sort of victory like Luger beating Hogan or Flair's team beating the NWO in Charlotte.

[Victator]

He was really good after Fall Brawl 97 when he walked out because of what happened to Flair.

 

Tony has a baseball blog. He rarely mentions pro wrestling. Once he called it an experiment and another time he talked about how WCW dying was a blessing in disguise because he had wanted to quit for years. One other one mentioned how calling Baseball aided him in calling wrestling matches.

[El-P]

I like Tony more than most. Agreed about what's been said about Tony & Jesse being really fun to listen too.

FWIW, Cornette has said than Tony was a good guy, but when he came back from WWF, he was changed and had lost the love he had for wrestling. Heenan has said in shoot interviews Tony hated the fans, hated the westlers, and was only thinking about keeping his spot, to the point he would work Heenan and Tenay by not giving them the results in advance sometimes.

 

I take Tony & Jesse over Jesse & Mansoon or Heenan & Mansoon any day. Never liked Mansoon bullying the heel announcers, it was just plain annoying after a while.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Jesse and Monsoon were awesome together. There was no "bullying the heel announcer" thing going on, and they always had more of a mutual respect relationship. Especially on the televised MSG Cards.

 

And really? "Bullying the heel announcer" is a bad thing? Monsoon and Heenan were like a comedy team and it worked great. Did anyone ACTUALLY feel BAD for Heenan when Monsoon would goof on him and call him out on his bullshit? That's crazy.

 

I liked Jesse in WCW alot. I thought Ventura and Ross were a lot of fun together to be honest. Jesse turned down the more cartoonish "the heels are always right" stuff he'd do with Vince on SNME and was more like he was with Monsoon.

 

I loved Tony when I discovered Crockett wrestling, and I always enjoyed him until around 98.

 

Oh, Jesse's finest and funniest commentary.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5md5FW3nUg

[Jingus]

Jesse and Monsoon were awesome together. There was no "bullying the heel announcer" thing going on, and they always had more of a mutual respect relationship. Especially on the televised MSG Cards.

 

And really? "Bullying the heel announcer" is a bad thing? Monsoon and Heenan were like a comedy team and it worked great. Did anyone ACTUALLY feel BAD for Heenan when Monsoon would goof on him and call him out on his bullshit? That's crazy.

I agree with all that. I've always found heel announcers who just make up fake bullshit to be really tiresome, especially when they keep insisting on something that clearly isn't true. Like saying the heel doesn't have a weapon when we're looking right at the damn thing in the guy's hand, that kind of bullshit. Gorilla was great at shutting the heel down when they tried that kind of thing, stopping them cold and keeping the time wasted on arguing to a bare minimum before quickly focusing back on the match at hand.

[JerryvonKramer]

I like Tony more than most. Agreed about what's been said about Tony & Jesse being really fun to listen too.

FWIW, Cornette has said than Tony was a good guy, but when he came back from WWF, he was changed and had lost the love he had for wrestling. Heenan has said in shoot interviews Tony hated the fans, hated the westlers, and was only thinking about keeping his spot, to the point he would work Heenan and Tenay by not giving them the results in advance sometimes.

 

I take Tony & Jesse over Jesse & Mansoon or Heenan & Mansoon any day. Never liked Mansoon bullying the heel announcers, it was just plain annoying after a while.

 

At least there is one guy who is on the same page as me here.

[El-P]

Jesse and Monsoon were awesome together. There was no "bullying the heel announcer" thing going on, and they always had more of a mutual respect relationship. Especially on the televised MSG Cards.

 

And really? "Bullying the heel announcer" is a bad thing? Monsoon and Heenan were like a comedy team and it worked great. Did anyone ACTUALLY feel BAD for Heenan when Monsoon would goof on him and call him out on his bullshit? That's crazy.

Monsoon was full of crap too, he would just bury the heels to no ends and really didn't put them over at all, which really was conterproductive I thought. Jesse was too smart to let himself get buried and actually pointed out intelligent things about the dynamics of the matches, and really, I would always side with his point of view.

Heenan & Monsoon was just a comedy team like you said, which was funny and worked well, but in a way Mansoon & Heenan were more important than the in-ring product, which in a way was a good thing considering the crap they had to announce.

But overall, not a huge fan of Monsoon.

 

Oh, Jesse's finest and funniest commentary.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5md5FW3nUg

Great line.

[Al]

Jesse and Monsoon were awesome together. There was no "bullying the heel announcer" thing going on, and they always had more of a mutual respect relationship. Especially on the televised MSG Cards.

 

And really? "Bullying the heel announcer" is a bad thing? Monsoon and Heenan were like a comedy team and it worked great. Did anyone ACTUALLY feel BAD for Heenan when Monsoon would goof on him and call him out on his bullshit? That's crazy.

 

I liked Jesse in WCW alot. I thought Ventura and Ross were a lot of fun together to be honest. Jesse turned down the more cartoonish "the heels are always right" stuff he'd do with Vince on SNME and was more like he was with Monsoon.

 

I loved Tony when I discovered Crockett wrestling, and I always enjoyed him until around 98.

 

Oh, Jesse's finest and funniest commentary.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5md5FW3nUg

Jesse was golden in that segment, but Vince deadpans the greatest line of the night.

 

"Uncle Elmer having some problems getting the ring on the finger. I hope that's not a premonition of what's to come later."

[JerryvonKramer]

I agree:

 

1. That Jesse and Gorilla had a very equal relationship of mutual respect. Jesse was always respectful with former wrestlers, but he'd naturally bully the pipsqueak broadcaster (Vince or Schiavone)

 

2. That the Uncle Elmer bit is the most amazing piece of commentary Jesse ever did.

 

 

Another point I'd like to make:

 

I think the BIG BIG difference between Ventura and Heenan is that Ventura would concede certain points, his support for the heels was sometimes subtle because he'd always maintain a veneer of objectivity AND the stuff he'd call the faces on were almost always 100% true - Hacksaw using the 2x4, snot coming out of his nose, Hogan posing in the ring for 5-10 minutes, Warrior running around like an idiot, etc. etc. Jesse always seemed like he was putting forward a rational, coherent argument. Many times McMahon came across as the irrational loon. Jesse was GREAT at taking the heel side in such a way that it seemed like a reasonable point of view. A great example is at one of the Wrestlemanias when Ronnie Garvin does the Garvin stomp on Frenchie Martin (Dino Bravo's manager), Jesse massively condemns that action and he seems right to do so.

 

 

Heenan, on the other hand, always seemed crooked, or like he had an alterior motive. He was 100% on the heel side and took that to cartoonish levels. He would not see reason, rarely conceded any ground to faces, etc. Heenan was a very different character from Ventura.

 

Ventura was confident, articulate, intelligent and generally acted like a big star. He came across as independently minded with definite favourites (e.g. Rude) and least favourites (e.g. Hogan).

 

Heenan was cowardly, sneaky, heelish, also intelligent and generally acted like he was up to something. He came across as someone with an agenda, who had allegiances and more of an active finger in different pies, he came across as expicitly batting for the heel team.

 

I think this big difference informs and shapes each of their on-screen relationships.

 

So I wouldn't say that the fact that Monsoon bullies Heenan is a PROBLEM, because when you get a former 400lb wrestler and a cowardly heelish manager together that is BOUND to happen. Just as if you get Ventura, who gives the illusion of being rational and balanced, McMahon is always going to sound like an OTT pro-face fanboy next to him.

 

The only combination out of all of them that didn't quite work in my view was JR and Jesse, because Jesse never ruffled JR's feathers and so straightlaced sports nerd Jim Ross was allowed to be straightlaced sports nerd Jim Ross. Lawler was a much better partner for him because he pushed his buttons.

 

Jesse could push the buttons of Monsoon, McMahon and Schiavone but not of Ross.

 

Heenan could push the buttons of Monsoon and McMahon but, for whatever reason, not of Schiavone.

 

In a weird way, I think Heenan and Tony were BETTER alongside Dusty, because they could share in "what the hell's he talking about" moments, and have moments where they gang up. Those relations are interesting:

 

Tony and Bobby vs. Dusty on Dusty's ridiculous lingo

 

Tony and Dusty vs. Bobby on whatever heelist shinnigans he has going on at the time

 

Bobby and Dusty vs. Tony on making fun of the the way he calls moves so specifically and his ability to pluck exact dates of events out of thin air (e.g. "When was the last time Luger and Sting went at it Tony?" (without a pause) "Superbrawl II, Feburary 1991. Milwaukee" cue mockery from Dusty and Bobby).

[El-P]

I think the BIG BIG difference between Ventura and Heenan is that Ventura would concede certain points, his support for the heels was sometimes subtle because he'd always maintain a veneer of objectivity AND the stuff he'd call the faces on were almost always 100% true - Hacksaw using the 2x4, snot coming out of his nose, Hogan posing in the ring for 5-10 minutes, Warrior running around like an idiot, etc. etc. Jesse always seemed like he was putting forward a rational, coherent argument. Many times McMahon came across as the irrational loon. Jesse was GREAT at taking the heel side in such a way that it seemed like a reasonable point of view. A great example is at one of the Wrestlemanias when Ronnie Garvin does the Garvin stomp on Frenchie Martin (Dino Bravo's manager), Jesse massively condemns that action and he seems right to do so.

That's right, that's exactly what I loved about Jesse.

 

In a weird way, I think Heenan and Tony were BETTER alongside Dusty, because they could share in "what the hell's he talking about" moments, and have moments where they gang up.

Agreed. Those moments were quite funny. Other moments I loved is when Dusty would go apeshit at Tenay's accurate mexican or japanese moves description which he didn't understand.

[jdw]

I take Tony & Jesse over Jesse & Mansoon or Heenan & Mansoon any day. Never liked Mansoon bullying the heel announcers, it was just plain annoying after a while.

I hate Gorilla in the booth. Just dogshit, more interested in getting himself over than the match or who was in the booth with him. Jesse took less of his shit. Bobby was use to playing a manager who got punked out, so he came across comfortable in stooging for Gorilla... but since Bobby is the more interesting of the two, it doesn't make it fun (for me) listening to constantly listen to the better of two people in the both stooge and bitch for a blowhard like Gorilla.

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

jdw, would it be fair to say that you generally dislike old WWWF stalwarts?

[Loss]

jdw, would it be fair to say that you generally dislike old WWWF stalwarts?

I'm not jdw, but he has praised plenty of "old WWWF stalwarts" in this thread, namely Vince himself.

[Bix]

With regards to Gorilla, while my generation is going to have more nostalgia bias towards him, I never really thought he worked too much to get himself over until Dave finally explained why he specifically felt that way somewhat recently. Knowing that he was criticizing wrestlers for stuff that was was part of the house style he developed makes a lot more sense out of it.

[Dooley]

With regards to Gorilla, while my generation is going to have more nostalgia bias towards him, I never really thought he worked too much to get himself over until Dave finally explained why he specifically felt that way somewhat recently. Knowing that he was criticizing wrestlers for stuff that was was part of the house style he developed makes a lot more sense out of it.

Can you expand on that a bit?

 

I like Gorilla and thought he was more about keeping the "integrity" of the match, rather than putting over the individual performers. Plus I could listen to Bobby and him bicker for hours and not get bored.

 

I never felt he put himself over too much, as opposed to someone like Zbyszko. I know someone will bring up Gorilla's confrontation with Terry Funk in '85, but WWF Funk was stooging for everybody, he would have stooged for Rita Chatterson if it came to it.

[Loss]

The biggest thing was criticizing wrestlers for not hooking the leg when the WWF rule was that you only hook the leg for the real finish. Made the wrestlers look stupid and himself look smart for pointing it out.

[Dooley]

The biggest thing was criticizing wrestlers for not hooking the leg when the WWF rule was that you only hook the leg for the real finish. Made the wrestlers look stupid and himself look smart for pointing it out.

I think that goes back to keeping the "integrity" of the contest. I can't tell you how many times around the schoolyard the conversation was had "oh man, heel X totally would have beat babyface Y if he had only hooked the leg after his big move". I doubt casual fans watching at home hear Gorilla saying it and think "oh man, Gorilla's putting himself over because he knows they only hook the leg on the real finish".

[KrisZ]

If you really want to hate Gorilla listen to him work as a color guy in the mid 90's with Stan Lane on PBP. He was a total douche.

 

Gorilla & Johnny Polo was quite the team as well.