PeteF3 Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Saint's really a much bigger deal with us tape-watchers than he ever was during his in-ring prime. With a few exceptions like Daddy and McManus and Kendo it's hard to see anyone in British wrestling as a "draw" in the traditional sense just because of the nature of the business, but Saint wasn't really a guy who held lots of titles or was positioned as a top player. If you're one to really emphasize ringwork for the HOF then I could see it, but that's really his only case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSR Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Saint's really a much bigger deal with us tape-watchers than he ever was during his in-ring prime. With a few exceptions like Daddy and McManus and Kendo it's hard to see anyone in British wrestling as a "draw" in the traditional sense just because of the nature of the business, but Saint wasn't really a guy who held lots of titles or was positioned as a top player. If you're one to really emphasize ringwork for the HOF then I could see it, but that's really his only case.But then if you are only to base your criteria for entry on ringwork (which I think is the primary reason for Saint) then you need to include contemporaries such as Jim Breaks, Steve Grey etc. However, those guys are clearly hurt by the lack of exposure that they have had in comparison to Saint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Cooke Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Alan4L has a ballot for the WON HOF. Can't wait for the first Dragon Gate wrestler to get on to the eligible list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted August 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 The original class should be eligible next year so I wouldn't be shocked to see CIMA on the ballot at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Alan4L has a ballot for the WON HOF. Can't wait for the first Dragon Gate wrestler to get on to the eligible list. I know he may have the wrong opinionz from some on here but he has watched more (old) wrestling than even he lets on online. Yes we are e-buddies but regardless of that Ive never known to have a glaring lack of knowledge on wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 I don't recall anything in the book about his booking of Dallas that seemed suspect. I could have sworn that he downplayed the role of Mantell to the point that it came across that Gary was responsible to the Boom. Â John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted August 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 I don't recall anything in the book about his booking of Dallas that seemed suspect. I could have sworn that he downplayed the role of Mantell to the point that it came across that Gary was responsible to the Boom.  John  Not exactly. Gary booked the territory from about 1976 to early '83. The early signs of a boom (first Reunion Arena Kerry-Flair match) were under him, he brought the Freebirds in (including coaxing Buddy out of retirement so they had three Freebirds to face three Von Erichs), and he booked the big Christmas night show. They did big business the following week based on the word of mouth about the turn. Fritz shorted Gary on their agreed-upon bonus for a percentage of how much houses went up over average in each town (with the Reunion Arena shows counting as "a town" to be fair), so Gary quit and Kabuki went with him to Charlotte.  He felt that with how hot he had gotten the territory, it wasn't hard for Mantell to step in. He didn't like Mantell for a variety of reasons. Hart didn't think he could book well (outside of Jimmy Garvin's gimmick with Sunshine and then Precious), felt that he mismanaged the locker room and the shows (letting guys work high and letting the Sportatorium tapings run so late with long gaps, causing fans to miss the bus), felt he was inexperienced for the role (he hadn't booked anywhere else or served as a booking assistant), overlooked good talent (like not pushing the Midnight Express harder), etc. Plus there were the issues of Mantell jumping to the UWF and taking much of the crew with him as well as Mantell arranging for Missing Link to attack Hart in the locker room.  Cornette's account of what working in Dallas was like backs up at least some of this, IMO. Your mileage may vary.  So essentially, it boils down to the personal animosity combined with Gary feeling that he got the territory hot enough that anyone could've booked Freebirds vs Von Erichs from that point on and drawn well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Alan4L has a ballot for the WON HOF. Can't wait for the first Dragon Gate wrestler to get on to the eligible list. I know he may have the wrong opinionz from some on here but he has watched more (old) wrestling than even he lets on online. Yes we are e-buddies but regardless of that Ive never known to have a glaring lack of knowledge on wrestling. Â But what qualifies him as an expert compared to people on this board? He traffics mostly in opinions on recent Japanese wrestling, which is fine. But do we have any evidence that he has nuanced opinions on Dick Murdoch or Gran Hamada or Volk Han? He just seems like a "friend of the WON" voter, which, again, is fine but for the fact that Dave tries to portay his HOF as something definitive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 It's not even worth worrying about after finding out a few years ago that Wahlers has a ballot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Not exactly. I'd have to go back and look at how Dave wrote it up, but I think the "taking credit for launching Birds vs VE's" was an item where Dave thought Gary was taking way too much credit. Perhaps my recollection is off, but I thought Dave contested Gary's claims on the he was behind that to the degree that Gary claimed he was. Â John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 I really dont want for this too get bitchy or trollish just so take what I am saying for what is worth. Of course ultimately it is up to Alan and Dave to explain themselves. I also acknowledge the things I say below may or may not rule in the majority of this forum too. Â I think the heat if there is any heat it should be put on Dave not Alan as Dave obviously is the one who selects people. Would any of you say no if Dave asked you even out of vanity? Â Dave does need to find young people to replace older voters & dropouts. The way wrestling is being discussed and reported has changed it is more bloggy and forumy instead of newsletters & fanzines. The WON HOF should embrace nu-media era voters kind of like Fighting Spirit Magazine has having articles written by Naylor, Schneider etc alongside the John Listers of the world. Â I think Alan should be given a bit more credit than some people here and on related websites. He does watch more wrestling than the vast majority of people. Not just Dragon Gate or the Indies either. Â If this counts for anything he does write for Fighting Spirit Magazine regularly. It is something that Dave can use to justify Alan as a "reporter." Â The main reason I support Alan having a ballot as he has demonstrated that he does "do his homework" for example doing the Best of 2000s project with Ditch on DVDR. Out of any of the "friend of the WON" voters if you want to lump him in that category he is the one that I trust that will enthusiastically research those he isnt totally familiar with and ultimately "get it right" if he doesn't have it right already that is. A trait I dont think is that common among WON HOF voters. Â All that said it is a fucking disgrace that Kris Z doesnt have a ballot and was jumped in the queue by Alan. I thought he had one as he certainly has the knowledge and is on Dave's radar. Â It's not even worth worrying about after finding out a few years ago that Wahlers has a ballot. There is that.... Â I am in no way claiming that there is an objective or logical selective process for potential voters btw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Kurt Angle is in the WON HoF. Â The End Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Wait... Kris doesn't have a ballot? Â Someone send me Kris e-mail via PM. I don't see it on Kris' fb page. I'm more than happy to talk to Dave... Â John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 I really dont want for this too get bitchy or trollish just so take what I am saying for what is worth. Of course ultimately it is up to Alan and Dave to explain themselves. I also acknowledge the things I say below may or may not rule in the majority of this forum too. Â I think the heat if there is any heat it should be put on Dave not Alan as Dave obviously is the one who selects people. Would any of you say no if Dave asked you even out of vanity? Â Dave does need to find young people to replace older voters & dropouts. The way wrestling is being discussed and reported has changed it is more bloggy and forumy instead of newsletters & fanzines. The WON HOF should embrace nu-media era voters kind of like Fighting Spirit Magazine has having articles written by Naylor, Schneider etc alongside the John Listers of the world. Â I think Alan should be given a bit more credit than some people here and on related websites. He does watch more wrestling than the vast majority of people. Not just Dragon Gate or the Indies either. Â If this counts for anything he does write for Fighting Spirit Magazine regularly. It is something that Dave can use to justify Alan as a "reporter." Â The main reason I support Alan having a ballot as he has demonstrated that he does "do his homework" for example doing the Best of 2000s project with Ditch on DVDR. Out of any of the "friend of the WON" voters if you want to lump him in that category he is the one that I trust that will enthusiastically research those he isnt totally familiar with and ultimately "get it right" if he doesn't have it right already that is. A trait I dont think is that common among WON HOF voters. Â All that said it is a fucking disgrace that Kris Z doesnt have a ballot and was jumped in the queue by Alan. I thought he had one as he certainly has the knowledge and is on Dave's radar. Â It's not even worth worrying about after finding out a few years ago that Wahlers has a ballot. There is that.... Â I am in no way claiming that there is an objective or logical selective process for potential voters btw. Â Yeah, I wasn't really trying to rip on Alan, who certainly puts in a ton of effort, even if his tastes strike me as loony. Hell, I'd rather he have a ballot than Alvarez. It just struck me as another indication of how arbitray Dave is in handing out votes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Yeah, I wasn't really trying to rip on Alan, who certainly puts in a ton of effort, even if his tastes strike me as loony. Hell, I'd rather he have a ballot than Alvarez. It just struck me as another indication of how arbitray Dave is in handing out votes. Ive no real issue with that POV at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Kurt Angle is in the WON HoF. Â The End Word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Not exactly. I'd have to go back and look at how Dave wrote it up, but I think the "taking credit for launching Birds vs VE's" was an item where Dave thought Gary was taking way too much credit. Perhaps my recollection is off, but I thought Dave contested Gary's claims on the he was behind that to the degree that Gary claimed he was.  John  Michael Hayes has gone on record saying that Gary Hart was the lynchpin for the boom of World Class and Ken Mantell was the guy who came in behind him.  To give a sports analogy, Gary was Tommy Prothro to Mantell's Chuck Knox & Don Coryell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Also regarding me and not having a vote....it is what it is.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Not exactly. I'd have to go back and look at how Dave wrote it up, but I think the "taking credit for launching Birds vs VE's" was an item where Dave thought Gary was taking way too much credit. Perhaps my recollection is off, but I thought Dave contested Gary's claims on the he was behind that to the degree that Gary claimed he was.  John  Michael Hayes has gone on record saying that Gary Hart was the lynchpin for the boom of World Class and Ken Mantell was the guy who came in behind him.  To give a sports analogy, Gary was Tommy Prothro to Mantell's Chuck Knox & Don Coryell   Nice reference. I like to think I know a thing or two about NFL history, but I admit I had to google Prothro's name. I guess if I had been a fan during those years I would have recognized the name. Maybe like a modern fan not knowing who Buddy Ryan or Jerry Glanville were? Hart's own NFL head coach comparison in the book was he was Jimmy Johnson to Mantell's Barry Switzer. I think I could agree with the Switzer/Mantell part, but I'm not sure if Hart's booking run in Dallas was the equivalent of 2 Super Bowl wins. But me discussing Hart's merits is like me trying to discuss the merits of someone like Coryell, they were before my time as a fan.  Anyway, back to wrestling... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Well my voting status has changed so that "controversy" is over. Â Thanks to those were part of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Don't forget to write-in Buddy Rose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted August 20, 2011 Report Share Posted August 20, 2011 Well my voting status has changed so that "controversy" is over. Â Thanks to those were part of it. Wow, this thread was actually productive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted August 20, 2011 Report Share Posted August 20, 2011 The arguments for them are tired, but Sting, Colon, Jarrett, Apter, Ventura and Don Owen need to be in  If fn Edge or Batista go in b4 Sting...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted August 20, 2011 Report Share Posted August 20, 2011 Good news on the Kris front. Â Â Wow, this thread was actually productive. He should give this forum a vote on his ballot in return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted August 20, 2011 Report Share Posted August 20, 2011 How does one become "eligible" to vote? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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