2011 Observer Hall of Fame thread

[goodhelmet]

You become a friend of Dave's.. or apparently a current voter vouches for you.

[jdw]

How does one become "eligible" to vote?

Dave sends you a ballot.

 

John

[jdw]

You become a friend of Dave's.. or apparently a current voter vouches for you.

Friend is probably a stretch, since Dave in the past didn't throw that word around lightly. Doubt Dave would consider Walhers a "friend". But he wrote for the WON site, so Dave gave him a ballot.

 

Vouching is the wrong word. Dave knows Kris. How long has he been popping up in the Special Thanks section? It hasn't been like Yohe getting a Thanks or two a year. Kris has been in there regularly for ages, about as consistently as Dr. Lucha shows up. What I sent to Dave wasn't a vouch, but pointing to someone right under Dave's nose contributing to the WON pretty much every week for a decade.

 

A vouch would be sending a note to Dave next year that *you* should get a ballot, assuming:

 

* you don't have one already

* you're not regularly contributing to the WON

* Dave hasn't been buying comps from you over the years

* you're not sending Dave freebies of comps

* i.e. he doesn't really know you all that much

 

Lots of assumptions there, and any of them could be wrong. But if they're not, one of us who has a ballot sending Dave a note recommending you get a ballot and walking through why you warrant one (because at least in my case I wouldn't just send a note to Dave saying X should get a ballot with no explanation)... *that* would be a vouch.

 

I'm not adverse to vouching for people getting ballots. I haven't done it through the years, perhaps in part because I think Dave's handed out too many ballots, especially to people in the business. I have mentioned to Yohe over the years that he should let Dave know of any historians who should be invited to vote.

 

John

[EricR]

I think Segunda Caida deserves a ballot. But if Kris just got one then I guess that means we're still 7 years away from that happening.

[jdw]

I don't think Dave hands out a ballot to an entity. That would be like giving the Torch a ballot, with Bruce and Wade sharing one.

 

John

[FLIK]

Of the people I actually know enough about to comment on i'd vote for any of the following

 

R&R, Sting, Hamada, Williams, Atlantis, Wagner Jr, Saint, Bill Apter & Jerry Jarrett

Personally, I can't see how someone could vote for Saint and not include Daddy and certainly Kent Walton. Although the belief from some in the UK that I've read is that Saint would do well this year based solely on his recent US exposure.

Saint's really a much bigger deal with us tape-watchers than he ever was during his in-ring prime. With a few exceptions like Daddy and McManus and Kendo it's hard to see anyone in British wrestling as a "draw" in the traditional sense just because of the nature of the business, but Saint wasn't really a guy who held lots of titles or was positioned as a top player. If you're one to really emphasize ringwork for the HOF then I could see it, but that's really his only case.

But then if you are only to base your criteria for entry on ringwork (which I think is the primary reason for Saint) then you need to include contemporaries such as Jim Breaks, Steve Grey etc. However, those guys are clearly hurt by the lack of exposure that they have had in comparison to Saint.

 

Don't know enough about Walton to comment.

I know just enough about Daddy to know that he's a big enough deal to atleast be in consideration.

 

For Saint he did have a number of title reigns though i'm not qualified to say w/in the context of the British sceen at the time how important titles were. The few times i've seen one of the title matches it was always treated as a huge deal and during one of them the anouncer mentioned that it was considered a rare treat to get one on free television. Also in his interview on Cabana's podcast Saint mentions that he always wanted to hold onto the belt because it did legit get him more money/bookings. Don't know how much weight people want to give this but he also mentioned in the same interview how the WOS shows got syndicated to a number of other countries within Europe and Africa and stuff so he and others became well known outside of just England because of it.

 

Anyways, I think the biggest thing for Saint is that he has had a lasting legacy beyond his peak and become such a big deal and influence to further generations of fans and wrestlers. Based on ring work alone he's awesome ofcourse but Meltzer pointed it out himself on an old radio show that there were a bunch of guys equally as talented back then which I def agree with having watched a fair bit of WOS myself.

[KrisZ]

So who is going to start making cases for guys.

[Dylan Waco]

So who is going to start making cases for guys.

I'm not nearly as interested in the WON HoF as I was ten years ago, but I will say that I would like to see the RnR's get in and I think in a strange sense they have a more compelling case than the Midnights even if the Midnights were bigger draws (and I'm not sure that's necessarily true, though Corny's scrapbook makes a strong case that they were a real draw as a tag team).

 

RnR's were:

 

Great in ring team, with no partner swaps unlike the Midnights, who had success as draws opposite the Midnights and in Crockett. Widely regarded as the quintessential blowjob babyface team, they indisputably had as many or more imitators than any team in history and "playing Ricky Morton" became a synonym for Face In Peril for a reason. Large quantity of high end matches over a 12 year period. The fact that they were the biggest draws in SMW during the period when SMW was at least a somewhat succesful regional promotion doesn't hurt either.

[Dylan Waco]

Actually knowing that Kris is a Lucha guy and being ignorant as fuck on the subject (though I have watched a FUCKLOAD of Lucha over the last two years and am now kicking myself for not starting earlier) who do you think are the best candidates out of that field?

[KrisZ]

Out of the lucha guys the only one I wouldn't vote for right now is Vampiro & Perrito. The other guys all have cases some more than others.

[Tim Evans]

Cien Caras for sure. Had one of the best feuds/mask matches in history with Rayo De Jalisco. Atlantis and Panther might have a shot too but they are still active.

[Loss]

I'm expecting Edge to go in, and also to be annoyed if Dave starts making a case for Batista.

[Dylan Waco]

If Edge goes in that is pretty much the official death knell for me even being able to pretend to give a shit.

[KrisZ]

I don't see Big Dave getting much of a vote and he shouldn't really but I wouldn't be shocked to see Edge get a lot of love from the panel.

[sek69]

So is there any reason Monsoon's not already in other than Dave spending most of the 80s just wailing on his commentary and making sure he won Worst Announcer every year (when anyone in the AWA was right there)? Even if you don't feel his wrestling career was worthy (and I think you could make a case it was), his importance backstage would seem to make him a slam dunk. I don't ever recall Dave doing any of his pimping posts on him, and I'd wager a lot of the new voters might not see him as anything other than the guy who did comedy bits with Bobby Heenan. Personally, I think his announcing was a significant part of the boom era since it lent legitimacy to those who remembered him as a wrestler, and new fans saw him as the voice of the WWF since he called all the big shows. Doesn't seem fair he should be shut out because Dave acts like Gorilla pissed on his cat.

[Loss]

We had this exact same conversation last year, and possibly the year before that. Gorilla was not critical to the boom. Hogan was. Vince was. To a lesser degree, people like Piper, Heenan and Savage were. It still would have happened without Gorilla. Dave has said he liked Gorilla personally, but thought he wasn't a good announcer and has explained why. Many times. People who don't want to believe it choose to ignore it.

 

Tell me, what did Gorilla do backstage?

[El-P]

Tell me, what did Gorilla do backstage?

Sat behind the curtains.

[FLIK]

Results from latest Observer Poll

 

--Strongest of these Hall of Fame candidates

Sting 25.2%

Edge 19.6%

Curt Hennig 16.9%

Rock & Roll Express 10.0%

Fabulous Moolah 5.2%

Pedro Morales 4.4%

Dick Murdoch 4.3%

Ivan Koloff 3.9%

Sgt. Slaughter 3.9%

Jimmy Snuka 3.9%

Mr. Wrestling II 1.4%

Batista 1.2%

Funny since I highly doubt things will really go this way.

For as much as fans love the guy, he has no chance in this thing.

[Dylan Waco]

Is Edge really a better candidate than Batista?

[Bix]

No.

[KrisZ]

I will say this for Edge in that he had a longer run on top than Big Dave plus more high profile matches which will affect some voters.

[KrisZ]

Another thing about Big Dave is that I would be shocked if he didn't come back for another run eventually so that might come into play as well.

[FLIK]

Re Edge - I know he's not the most popular guy with a lot of posters here but dude's had a lot of matches that a lot of other people do think are great. Wouldn't vote for him myself even though I actually do like him a lot but I think he's got a pretty high chance of making it.

 

Re Batista - Given how skinny he's gotten (like 1/3 the size he was at his biggest) if he ever comes back it sure won't be any time soon.

[kjh]

I will say this for Edge in that he had a longer run on top than Big Dave plus more high profile matches which will affect some voters.

I think if you looked at their career records closely, the gap between them in terms of longevity and high profile matches wouldn't be that large. Edge spent a long time on the disabled list throughout his career and didn't become a real headliner until he beat John Cena for the title at New Year's Revolution 2006, a year after it became clear that Batista was becoming the hottest star in wrestling.

[cm funk]

I think Batista's peak 05-10 (also with some significant time missed in 06 and 08/09) is probably better than Edge's. You had the big program with HHH, with Guerrero on SD, tagging with Mysterio, excellent series of matches with Undertaker (which I enjoy more than Edge's comparable run), SummerSlam match with Cena, feud with Shawn Michaels, heel turn on Rey, and program with Cena. Edge's big programs with Cena and Taker were good, but there was a lot of his stuff I didn't particularly enjoy during his run as a top guy.

 

But Edge blows him away on longevity and having an impact on the promotion for a much longer time. The E&C tag team (along with the Hardyz and Dudleyz), ladder matches, TLC matches were a huge draw in 2000. You could argue that after Rock, HHH and the McMahons that E&C and The Hardyz were the most over acts in the company along with Angle and Jericho, and they certainly wrestled in many TV main events. I don't think the tag team scene gets enough credit for how important it was to the product at that time. Then if you fast forward to the SD6 era.....SD's ratings actually increased after the brand split and during the period that that crew was carrying the shows. I also happen to think his matches with Orton, gradual heel turn involving Benoit, and feud with HBK...the stuff that led into the Rated R character....are very underrated and it was a really fun time to watch his character progress.

 

I'd be curious to see how they truly rate against each other as draws. I know Edge has sold a ton of merchandise since the "Rated R" stuff began, and I think he must have done pretty well in the E&C and during his midcard singles run in 01-02. The Slim Jim sponsorship was surely big for the company. I'm sure Batista's been a bigger draw on PPV and probably for ratings when he was on top on SD.