Kostka Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 I always loved Dustys big, charismatic comebacks. Fuck the rest of the match, as soon as he got to his jiving bionic elbows, I was marking out. For that reason he was an excellent hot tag. Another great FIP was Hiromichi Fuyuki in the late 80s. I think he was better than Kawada during that period (he surpassed him later on, of course). Jim Duggan was a hell of a comeback in 1984. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregor Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 I can see why Shawn spent most of his time as a singles star as a babyface, meaning I see why Vince thought that was a better fit for him. But really, being a heel played to his strengths so much more.I always felt like Michaels was a natural face as a worker and a natural heel as a character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 I can see why Shawn spent most of his time as a singles star as a babyface, meaning I see why Vince thought that was a better fit for him. But really, being a heel played to his strengths so much more.I always felt like Michaels was a natural face as a worker and a natural heel as a character. That's actually pretty accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 I can see that point, but Shawn in 1993-1994 I thought was clicking on all cylinders as an interview and in the ring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 Without wishing to get into a big Shawn discussion, I think the problem for him as a face in 1996 wasn't his work or his character, but his gimmick. A "Sexy Boy"? The "Heartbreak Kid"? Are you kidding me? If 90% of wrestling fans are male, is that really going to get over as something to cheer? This is perhaps illustrated with a photo: I'll just come right out and say it: he looked gay. Since when has that been a babyface gimmick in wrestling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 I can see that point, but Shawn in 1993-1994 I thought was clicking on all cylinders as an interview and in the ring. He worked less flashy than in 95-96 though. Bumper heel, sure, but not jumping around face like he became later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 Without wishing to get into a big Shawn discussion, I think the problem for him as a face in 1996 wasn't his work or his character, but his gimmick. A "Sexy Boy"? The "Heartbreak Kid"? Are you kidding me? If 90% of wrestling fans are male, is that really going to get over as something to cheer? Girls cheered him. Male fans, not as much. cf Survivor Series 96. The more I watch Michael Hayes circa 89-90, the more I think Micheals copied his looks. Shawn still coming out to "Sexy boy" with the same kind of outfit in his 40's with balding hair and crooked eyes was much more offensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 A babyface who gets over based on his looks and appeals to female fans is hardly unprecedented. You can argue with the execution in Shawn's case, but the concept is fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 I don't care much for any comeback that consist of no-selling. Lawler dropping the strap equals Warrior shaking the ropes to me. If Lawler's comebacks = Warrior's comebacks, all babyface comebacks = Warrior's comebacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 I don't care much for any comeback that consist of no-selling. Lawler dropping the strap equals Warrior shaking the ropes to me. If Lawler's comebacks = Warrior's comebacks, all babyface comebacks = Warrior's comebacks. Yeah, because that's what they all did, no-selling with a little visual gimmick thrown in : Ricky Morton, Tito Santana, Ricky Steamboat, Randy Savage, Brad Armtrong, Atsushi Onita, Chigusa Nagayo, Bob Backlund, Bret Hart... well, I could go on and on. Some did the no-sell routine, it worked for Hogan, Sting, Lawler, Warrior, even Tatanka (oh yeah), but not every babyface in wrestling was about making a comeback by just stopping selling for the heel. I don't care for this stuff, it annoys me every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kostka Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 Except Lawler didnt no sell during comebacks. The only time I recall that happening was during Lawler/Martel when he brushed off some leg work, but other than that, Lawler was a very consistent seller throughout his entire career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 Please don't try and tell me Backlund sold better than Lawler. I've come around on Backlund a lot over the years, but babyface selling is not something I can see any case for Bob being the superior of Lawler in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 EDIT : read my post Dylan, I'm was not talking about that *at all*. And yes, Lawler no sold his opponents offense during comeback. Drop the strap, no-sell, punches. Every time. I know tha shall not invoque the King's name in vain in 2011, but still, let's be honest here. It worked wonders for him. I find it annoying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 White flag because I'm just tired of Lawler being a sacred cow at this point. I'm just talking about the drop the strap down bit : he does it in every match, and it's a gimmick "no-sell" comeback. I don't like it, that's about it. Jeez, settle down people, I know that in 2011 tha shall not mention the name Lawler in vain, but still. It's not about attacking a sacred cow. It's about saying something that's actively, undeniably untrue, and that you should know if you've ever watched a Jerry Lawler match before. Have you watched a Jerry Lawler match before? Because if all you're getting is second-hand info about how the guy worked, or only ever watched his 90's WWF stuff, I could see how one might get the wrong idea. But if you've actually seen a Lawler match, and you see no difference between his comebacks and Warrior's comebacks, you're either... A. Paying very, very little attention to the match B. Have a very, very low tolerance for babyface comebacks in general C. Have very unorthodox taste in bayface comebacks D. Dislike Lawler in a more general sense, and thus tend to complain about him more, even if those complaints aren't consistent with your other beliefs about wrestling, or... E. Lying I'm pretty sure you've mentioned watching a Lawler match at least once in your life, and I'd like to assume it's not A. Mentioning that you like the babyface comebacks of Morton, Steamboat, and other guys you listed suggests it's probably not C. I really, really want to give you the benefit of the doubt that it's not E. In hindsight, D is less far-fetched than B, and that's really the guess I should've gone with. Still, Jumbo Tsuruta is a sacred cow, and when Phil calls him "the Japanese Terry Taylor" people don't get that worked up about it. Hell, when people point out that sacred cow Jerry has a thing for the teenage poontang, everyone outright agrees. This isn't about sacred cows. This is about you being wrong. Explain why you're right, or stop trying to front like you are. Also.... (when did I compare the merits of Lawler and Backlund as far as selling anyway ???) Yeah, because that's what they all did, no-selling with a little visual gimmick thrown in : Ricky Morton, Tito Santana, Ricky Steamboat, Randy Savage, Brad Armtrong, Atsushi Onita, Chigusa Nagayo, Bob Backlund, Bret Hart... well, I could go on and on. Explain how gremlins altered your post after the fact, or stop trying to front like they did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 I've seen shitload of Lawler's match, and that's the impression I got from it. Now, if I'm wrong and if it's A/not paying enough attention, it means I don't like Lawler's comebacks because it produced the same effect on me as a "no-sell" comeback. The two things I don't care for in a Lawler match are 1/overuse of punches, as great as they might be and 2/dropping down the strap and comeback bit. But hey, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. As far as Backlund goes, nope, I was talking about guys who didn't do the "no-sell" comebacks, not comparing Lawler and Backlund's selling in general. You can sell well for an entire match then do a shitty "no-sell" comeback gimmick, like Sting would for instance (that ruined the Regal match from BATB96). Never talked about selling in the general sense of the word. I enjoy Lawler's selling, it's actually the thing I probably like the most about him (it's not like I can enjoy his varied offense...) So I'll settle for : I may very well be wrong about the "no-sell" bit after dropping down the strap, but let's say I'm not a fan of Lawler's comebacks, which give me an impression of "out of the blue" each time around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankensteiner Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 No, Lawler did the "hulk up" comeback. I don't see how that can even be a debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankensteiner Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 I would also like to put in a vote for Tito Santana as best babyface. He's got the perfect balance of sympathetic selling and ass-kicking offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 No, Lawler did the "hulk up" comeback. I don't see how that can even be a debate. Well, I'm glad I'm not totally hallucinating then, because at some point, I was just wondering if my brain was totally fucked up (and since I'm too lazy to dig into my external hard drive for Lawler matches...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kostka Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 If you want to say "Hulking up" means "no sell", then no, Lawler didn't do that. If you want to say he "Hulked up" in the sense of having a trademark adrenaline rush with the strap gimmick, then sure, but I'd like to see cited examples of where he brushed off damage to run through a come back, the way Hogan or Warrior did, because they are completely different. Lawlers style of comeback remembered injuries throughout the comeback sequence. Hogan and Warrior style comebacks ignored the body of the match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 I would also like to put in a vote for Tito Santana as best babyface. He's got the perfect balance of sympathetic selling and ass-kicking offense. Tito, Steve Grey, Chigusa Nagayo and Kyoko Inoue stand out to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 I would also like to put in a vote for Tito Santana as best babyface. He's got the perfect balance of sympathetic selling and ass-kicking offense.I was coming in here solely to name-drop Tito too. I kind of feel like he is an unsung hero in the babyface department, as he's always overlooked in favor of Steamboat and Morton. Santana took massive beatings though. His selling of certain moves made it look like he was straight dead. See his match with Barbarian at Wrestlemania VI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 I would also like to put in a vote for Tito Santana as best babyface. He's got the perfect balance of sympathetic selling and ass-kicking offense. Tito, Steve Grey, Chigusa Nagayo and Kyoko Inoue stand out to me. Can't believe I forgot Kyoko. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kostka Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 Tito was easily one of the best workers of 80's WWF. It's not even close. Great, great babyface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 See his match with Barbarian at Wrestlemania VI. Simply one of the greatest bump ever at the end. Tito was really good, I opened my eyes on his work during the WWF SC poll. Much better than the perenial "underrated" Brad Armstrong, who wasn't that great beyond being a super solid mechanic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 And yes, Lawler no sold his opponents offense during comeback. Drop the strap, no-sell, punches. Every time. Except for the times that he doesn't, which is all the time. This isn't about sacred cows. This is about you being wrong. Explain why you're right, or stop trying to front like you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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