Best U.S. Worker Of The 90's?

[JerryvonKramer]

I'd have to take a look at that match from Halloween Havoc 91, because I absolutely hated that show and my little review doesn't mention it as a highlight even within that context.

 

I have to be honest, whenever a Dustin match has come up I've been bored to tears. I didn't enjoy any of his stuff, with Regal, with Bunkhuose Buck, with Austin, with the Dangerous Alliance, etc.

 

I might revisit some of those to take a second look. In the context of most of shows shows, the Dustin match always seemed to be eating up a load of time and kind of lull on the card. He was the definition of bland for me.

[El-P]

I picked him because he's honestly the only person that stands out to me anymore as having week in and week out good matches on television. He's certainly the only WWE worker I remember being worth a shit that year on a consistent basis.

Well, Waltman best worker in the WWF in 99, I have no issue with that for sure.

But the ECW crew were just tearing it up at the same time, despite poor booking and annoying TV format (ECW on TNN was so much worse than Hadcore TV).

[Victator]

Crow Sting would also dog in matches in a big way. The Hogan return match in 1998 is a perfect exemple of Sting not putting any effort at all, while Hogan brought a lot more to the table.

It was his first match in over a year and he was shaking off the ring rust. By March he was working as hard as ever.

[MikeCampbell]

Eddy was born in the US. Bret and Benoit are Canadians. Obviously Eddy is the answer.

 

John

Not really the spirit of the question/discussion.

 

Volk Han and Stan Hansen aren't Japanese, but if I were rating the Best Japanese workers from the 90's, I would include both in the discussion.

 

The title is best U.S. worker of the '90s, not AMERICAN worker of the '90's. I see no reason why Bret or Benoit shouldn't be considered, they both worked extensively in the U.S.

[Coffey]

Jericho probably deserves a mention if we're throwing out names like Juventud & Malenko. I don't see how it's anyone other than Bret though. He even had good matches on throwaway shows like Thunder against people like Disco Inferno in the later 90's. Mentioning Sabu and his sloppy-ass is ridiculous though.

 

1. Bret Hart

2. Shawn Michaels

3. Steve Austin

 

I don't think HBK is overrated at all. He's right where he should be.

[Dylan Waco]

Sabu has his fans. Sloppy or not there are plenty of good Sabu matches out there and while I think he was rarely the best guy in those matches it would wrong to say he didn't add something to them.

 

On Dustin I'm actually pretty miffed about how anyone could find him to be bland. I thought he always worked hard and brought a variety of cool and different spots to his matches.

[Eduardo]

So would guys from Mexico who toured the U.S. be in consideration for this topic? Someone like El Hijo Del Santo worked here in AAA shows and for hundreds of Hispanic-populated cities for regional U.S. promoters.

[Coffey]

Sabu has his fans. Sloppy or not there are plenty of good Sabu matches out there and while I think he was rarely the best guy in those matches it would wrong to say he didn't add something to them.

For sure. There's no question he was pretty damn innovative too. But if we're talking about in-ring work, it's going to take a more well-rounded wrestler, in my eyes, to make the list. Sabu was capable of putting on some crazy, breath-taking moments. Especially if all the pieces of the puzzle fell together correctly. More often than not though, it was a lot of bad brawling, "garbage" wrestling (tables, chairs, etc.) and blown spots when attempting his crazy Sabu stuff.

 

Sabu has been talked about a lot lately, especially with the Sabu-A-Day thread and whatnot. He's exciting & different and a lot of the time, pretty fun to watch (mostly because he's crazy). But I would not even make him an "honorable mention" in any sort of work list.

 

Now Dustin Rhodes, that's an interesting debate. His early 90's WCW work, his late 90's Goldust stuff. I think people sleep on him, honestly. When it comes down to naming matches, where do you start?

[El-P]

Sabu was capable of putting on some crazy, breath-taking moments. Especially if all the pieces of the puzzle fell together correctly. More often than not though, it was a lot of bad brawling, "garbage" wrestling (tables, chairs, etc.) and blown spots when attempting his crazy Sabu stuff.

Well, during my ECW watch, I was baffled by how much the "Sabu blows spots and is sloppy" thing has been totally overblown. The truth is, Sabu didn't blew much spots at all. He did "blew" spots on purpose at times too, which was obious if you watch him a lot, to get over the dangerosity of his style, and it actually made sense in the context of the matches and the character. I don't see any bad brawling either, Sabu portrayed brawling pretty well. Sabu didn't go overboard with the tables if you pay attention, and he milked it or hit it often at the right time. Really, he's a guy that really went up dramatically in my book.

 

Bad brawling, nonsensical garbage spots left and right and sloppiness is all about RVD, not Sabu.

 

I can see why some people would find Dustin Rhodes bland because as far as character goes, "The Natural" Dustin Rhodes was bland as hell. I mean, Dustin was a tall pale redneck. That and being Dusty Jr. hurt the perception of him being a really good worker.

[smkelly]

From January 1st, 1990 to December 31st, 1999, Bret Hart was the US Worker of the decade. His accomplishments in the ring are well-known, and though his WCW endeavor was poor, I agree with Vince on the fact that WCW didn't know what to do with a Bret Hart. Nevertheless, Bret still had some good/great/excellent WCW matches, namely, his tribute match for Owen.

[Victator]

Sabu didn't go overboard with the tables if you pay attention, and he milked it or hit it often at the right time. Really, he's a guy that really went up dramatically in my book.

Sabu always made the big spots matter. There was a progression in the high spots, so when he finally hit the big one it mattered and got a huge reaction. I'm curious where this bad brawling supposedly was. Sabu was one of the few guys who did crowd brawling correctly. More often than not it seemed like a fight. Rather than dragging a guy by his hair across the arena.

[Coffey]

It's fine, we can all agree to disagree or whatever, but trying to mention Sabu in the same breath as Bret Hart or Shawn Michaels is, in my opinion, pretty ridiculous.

 

Bad brawling, nonsensical garbage spots left and right and sloppiness is all about RVD, not Sabu.

Which is OK, since they only wrestled each other about five-hundred times. Ha! Everyone in ECW was pretty much like that at the time. And the "bad brawling" is pretty much whenever they go into the crowd, or whenever Sabu throws his shitty-ass punches.

 

And I don't buy into the "blows spots on purpose" bullshit AT ALL and never have. Dude was just a crazy stoner that tried stupid shit. Like triple-jump moonsaults into the front row.

[Dylan Waco]

I will say this for Sabu - he had a novelty quality that always made you want to watch him, especially against bizarro opponents.

 

It's also worth pointing out that Sabu's series of matches v. Funk, Scorp and Mikey hold up really, really well. And I say this as a guy who would not even really consider putting Sabu in my top ten.

[Loss]

Not someone who has a case, but someone who might have a case if not for a long series of what-ifs: Brian Pillman.

 

Had he been booked closer to the top of the cards, not had the car accident and not been the target of burials for much of the decade in WCW, he could have potentially had a great decade.

[Victator]

or whenever Sabu throws his shitty-ass punches.

What the fuck? Have you seen a Sabu match. He does not have shitty punches. The list of guys who have outright better punches is very small.

[Dylan Waco]

The heel turn hurt him a lot. He was a great babyface and it is likely that he only would have gotten better. As a heel he had moments, but he was simply not as good. It played away from his strengths. The Loose Cannon character was extremely entertaining at the time, but it was a character designed to move away from a focus on in ring stuff.

 

I actually think Pillman is the ultimate "What If" guy when it comes to U.S. wrestlers. I think you could make a serious case that if he stays healthy and stays babyface he becomes a Ricky Morton/Ricky Steamboat level guy.

[Coffey]

or whenever Sabu throws his shitty-ass punches.

What the fuck? Have you seen a Sabu match. He does not have shitty punches. The list of guys who have outright better punches is very small.

 

I would say that I've seen more Sabu matches than most people. At least his ECW work. Sabu has some of the worst punches I've seen. He's not Jim Duggan or Jerry Lawler in there. He throws these crappy looking little short jabs, usually to stall to give himself time to set-up a table or something. I mean, business exposingly bad punches. First thing that comes to mind when thinking about Sabu are how his punches are almost as bad as Rob Van Dam's forearms. The first one that springs to mind is his punches to Shane Douglas in his "return" when he does his run-in during the Douglas/Taz title match at Guilty As Charged 1999 (which admittedly, Douglas super sold it to make it look worse too).

 

Have you seen any Sabu matches??

 

Watch the Heatwave 1998 match between RVD/Sabu Vs. Hayabusa/Shinsaki. Take away the crowd popping big spots/table spots. Just look at the in-ring work in-between the big spots. Now try to tell me Sabu is a great in-ring worker.

 

Here is a YouTube video of Sabu Vs. Rob Van Dam from the SyFy days of WWE owned ECW that demonstrates, I feel, how bad his punches were: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8ZFcokNmt0

2:30 mark especially. To be fair, that's not a match from the 90's, but the pickings are pretty slim on YouTube. And at least I'm trying to defend my opinion (which I stand by) and not just saying "lol hav u seen n e matches!?"

[Dylan Waco]

Thinking about this today I think if you are favoring consistency and longevity throughout the decade it really is very hard to argue against Bret.

 

Also I think you could make a case for Smothers in the top five if you value those same things. Yes he has a few gaps, but he started the decade in a very good tag team, moved to SMW where was great in singles and in tags, and closed he decade in ECW as part of a very good tag team with Guido before having a run in Dec. of 99 of several really strong singles matches. The USWA stuff I haven't seen a ton of, and Freddy Joe Floyd was basically a dead period, but he has a lot of good stuff throughout the decade in a variety of different settings.

[Loss]

Bret was a big show performer through and through. I don't say that as an insult, but I do think it's important to point out that most (not all, of course) of his matches that aired on Coliseum Video exclusively are really bland. There are quite a few disappointing Shawn Michaels matches, especially the cage match. He delivered when it counted, but he's not a hidden gem kind of guy. But I guess there aren't many major league guys in the 90s who are hidden gem guys, unless you count random great Barry Windham matches on early 90s WCW TV.

[Dylan Waco]

Scorpio and Foley (besides Smothers) are the two guys that strike me as "hidden gem" guys. Foley really is a less a "hidden gem" guy than a guy who tried hard in every match no matter what the context. Scorp is a guy who has tons of really strong matches on shows where he easily could have phoned it in.

[FLIK]

Watch the Heatwave 1998 match between RVD/Sabu Vs. Hayabusa/Shinsaki. Take away the crowd popping big spots/table spots. Just look at the in-ring work in-between the big spots. Now try to tell me Sabu is a great in-ring worker.

To be fair, that is one of the worst matches every person involved has had. Not a match anyone is going to point to as a + when making a case for any of em.

[Victator]

Here is a YouTube video of Sabu Vs. Rob Van Dam from the SyFy days of WWE owned ECW that demonstrates, I feel, how bad his punches were: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8ZFcokNmt0

Pretty poor demonstration. Punches were fine there.

 

Have you seen any Sabu matches??

Of course not.

 

http://drvictatorpresents.blogspot.com/

 

Watch the Heatwave 1998 match between RVD/Sabu Vs. Hayabusa/Shinsaki. Take away the crowd popping big spots/table spots. Just look at the in-ring work in-between the big spots. Now try to tell me Sabu is a great in-ring worker.

One match out of hundreds is suppose to prove someone is a bad wrestler. Vader and Davey Boy Smith had an awful dog collar match on a 1997 episode of Raw. Am I suppose to think they aren't great wrestlers?

 

 

"lol hav u seen n e matches!?"

I don't recall laughing.

[Gregor]

Bret was a big show performer through and through. I don't say that as an insult, but I do think it's important to point out that most (not all, of course) of his matches that aired on Coliseum Video exclusively are really bland.

One thing that Michaels was better at doing (and you kind of touched on this by referring to his quantity of good matches) was shortish matches, matches in the five-to-fifteen-minute range. It's hard to say how much of that is from Hart's phoning it in and how much of it is that Michaels' style was more geared toward sprints. I don't know if I can think of a really good 1990s Bret Hart match that didn't reach fifteen minutes; Michaels has quite a few. I don't think that Michaels has very many advantages over Hart (and I'm a Michaels fan), but I feel like this is one.

[Coffey]

Pretty poor demonstration. Punches were fine there.

Well this just proves that we're never going to agree, so I'll just drop it. I really don't see how, but whatever. I feel like you're just trolling me at this point anyway, so fuck it.

[Loss]

I will add something else about Steve Austin.

 

I think late 1993/early 1994 was when he really started to come into his own. I guess it happened before that, as he improves tremendously in 1992, but I think Austin could have carried PPV main events by the beginning of '94.

 

Even as U.S. champ, it seemed like he was always working a style where his place on the card limited him. He has a match with Sting on the 1/1/94 WCW SN that is tremendous, and 10 of the 15 minutes are just really solid matwork and doing some great counters off of a side headlock. It felt like the first 15 minutes of a classic world title match, but the problem was that Austin wasn't world champ. He had a match with Pillman early in '94 that is the same way. He needed 30+ minutes to get the most out of that style, and it's a shame he didn't start getting that much time until he had to change his style due to injuries. Before the injuries (well, even after), he was a really willing bumper.