El-P Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 Well, thanks, this list was a little bit US-Japanocentric. It widens the spectrum to say the least. Wonder where FLIK is to push my joshi picks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 I think after the NWA DVDVR set, Flair's already considerable stock will rise ten-fold. I think some people are forgetting that it largely didn't matter who was in the ring with Flair - they were going to have a good match. I mean, how many workers could lead *Lex Luger* (in '86) through a 2/3 falls match that went broadway? I think Flair's resume of matches in the '80s would be something to see. At any rate, if a Goodhelmet Ric Flair Production were to ever occur, the argument would be over. Would probably seal him in the GOAT top-five without problem - maybe even #1. Why would his stock rise 10-fold? It's not like his great matches from 1980s NWA/WCW are obscure. They've been pimped for 25 years, and the "Flair could have a good match with anybody" talking point is as old as they come. None of what you're saying is likely to be a revelation to anyone reading this thread. Flair is clearly a strong contender for best wrestler of the 1980s, but he's not a blow away choice for those who love Lawler, Fujiwara, Jumbo etc. Hackneyed hyperbole is not going to change that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 Maybe also people wll get tired after the 25 Flair match on the set, as good as it will be. Because although the "Flair worked the same match all the time" argument is overstated, familiarity will still go against Flair in the end. I don't think Flair stock will rise. Maybe with people who have underrated him after somewhat of a backlash, but Flair has been pimped for the last 25 years as the GOAT. The thing with Flair is that at this point, he can't be fresh anymore. Doesn't mean he can't be considered as one of the greatest, but fresh is something Flair will never have. And freshness plays a pretty big role in the enthousiasm of wrestling geeks with these sets. I can't see how his stock can rise in any way. At best it will be a confirmation that he should be a serious GOAT candidate. Guys like Takada have been (very wrongfully) blasted, so you can also expect somewhat of a lukewarm reception to matches that have been seen and talked about a lot in the last 30 years, if not a backlash. Any way, it will be interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 I will say that sometimes I'll see a Flair match like the one vs Hack Sawyer in Portland which shows me something different and I get excited about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 I think after the NWA DVDVR set, Flair's already considerable stock will rise ten-fold. I think some people are forgetting that it largely didn't matter who was in the ring with Flair - they were going to have a good match. I mean, how many workers could lead *Lex Luger* (in '86) through a 2/3 falls match that went broadway? Buddy Rose for one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 I'll admit there is something frustrating about any wrestler being considered as being better than Flair in the 80s. Flair being the unquestioned king is a long-held belief. But that's not where the frustration comes from. I think the frustration is that because most of us have seen the big Flair matches so many times, because these days we'd rather watch stuff from guys who are still being discovered, that means the guys whose catalogs are still being worked through are "better". There's nothing wrong with wanting to watch stuff that is fresh, but I think it's important to keep that separate from "who is better?" arguments. That's not to say that's what is happening here. I'm looking forward to jumping on the Buddy Rose train at some point. I like Slaughter. Lawler in my mind gives Flair a run for his money, because almost all of the positives you can point to for Flair also apply to Lawler. There were many great wrestlers in the 80s. But for the sake of looking at Flair's case on the merits, and not being bored with him because his greatness isn't really a secret, I feel the need to walk through his decade. There are most certainly good things outside of it, but to me, Flair's GOAT argument was made from 1983-1989. I want to take some time and get this right, so I will start working on something to walk through each of those years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 I think after the NWA DVDVR set, Flair's already considerable stock will rise ten-fold. I think some people are forgetting that it largely didn't matter who was in the ring with Flair - they were going to have a good match. I mean, how many workers could lead *Lex Luger* (in '86) through a 2/3 falls match that went broadway? Buddy Rose for one. Where is the Buddy Rose/Lex Luger broadway? I realize smkelly's question was "Who could?", but we could wax hypothetical all day and not really have a discussion that means anything. I'd rather point this in a different direction. What's your favorite Buddy Rose performance taking a really green/clueless/immobile wrestler through a really long match where the guy looks much better than he really is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 I'd rather not pretend Luger was "clueless/immobile" in 86. Almost all of Rose's major matches were 2/3 Falls which is sort of what I was driving at. He was having good-to-great 2/3 Falls matches with uber green guys or limited talents ALL THE TIME. Why narrow it down to one name? Based on what each guy had going for him I would guess having a strong 2/3 Falls match with Steve Regal or Jay Youngblood was a lot more difficult than having a good one with Luger in 86. Also I should note that I'm not arguing Buddy was better than Flair for the decade. I don't think he was. But I don't think peak Buddy is far off from peak Flair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 I would be excited to see some new Flair matches that haven't been talked about to death, and since he was the ultimate NWA touring champ, a few of these matches probably are out there. Now, would I be excited by the matches themselves that remains to be seen. Overexposure is Flair's worst enemy. But that shouldn't blind us either on the fact Flair was *great* in the 80's, there's no way to twist it another way. Talking about Flair is tricky at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 I don't think it's JUST overexposure with Flair, though that's a part of it, but also changing tastes. People value things they didn't value in years past and they don't value some things as much as they used to. And I think some of that affects Flair as much (if slightly differently) as it affects someone like Sayama or Benoit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 I'd rather not pretend Luger was "clueless/immobile" in 86. Sure he was. Luger did eventually get good. I don't think that would apply to him in 1988 and after, but I think it would definitely apply in 1986 and at least the first half of 1987. I don't even really like the Luger match in '86 all that much, but it's a decent one, and there aren't exactly a lot of decent matches from Luger's initial Florida run. Almost all of Rose's major matches were 2/3 Falls which is sort of what I was driving at. He was having good-to-great 2/3 Falls matches with uber green guys or limited talents ALL THE TIME. Why narrow it down to one name? Based on what each guy had going for him I would guess having a strong 2/3 Falls match with Steve Regal or Jay Youngblood was a lot more difficult than having a good one with Luger in 86. If you can't narrow it down to one, that's fine. The point was that I was wanting an example. You provided them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 I think the problem with narrowing things down with Buddy is that it is devoid of context. I mean Buddy had tremendous matches with Martel and Hennig which on the surface doesn't seem like anything out of the ordinary given the talent in the ring. Then you realize Martel and Hennig were really fucking green and suddenly it doesn't across as an obvious in the bag "this should definitely have been this good" affair. Buddy spent most of his time in Portland wrestling green as grass guys, old washed up guys, or limited talents. He really didn't have a Steamboat. He certainly didn't have a Funk. Magnum and Kerry aren't universally praised, but both were far more polished during their runs with Flair than guys like Bret Sawyer or Iceman Parsons were when they were working Buddy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 Then you realize Martel and Hennig were really fucking green and suddenly it doesn't across as an obvious in the bag "this should definitely have been this good" affair. When was this ? Martel debuted in 72, so I don't think he would be that green in the early 80's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 It was in 80. I'm aware of when Martel debuted, but there is no debate that Portland was his first big break and his first run as a consistent main eventer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 It's hard to have fruitful arguments about Buddy, because even a lot of the people on this board haven't seen his peak stuff from Portland. We really do need to finish off the Portland DVDVR set (on which I've been the slug) and get that shit out there. But I'm right there with Dylan and Will in thinking the guy was phenomenal. He was like Funk in that he always seemed to come up with a way to make a match interesting. Whether jawing with an old lady at ringside or building a story around his wig or unleashing a devastating attack on his opponent's back, he always had some idea of how to engage the audience. He was a more creative, thoughtful wrestler than Flair, a master at keeping the same crowd excited week after week, year after year. But yeah, Flair beats him on body of work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLIK Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 Wonder where FLIK is to push my joshi picks... Heh, i'll for sure back up Devil, Chiggy & Jaguar as great picks. They have all the credentials anyone could want, extremely talented wrestlers with a laundry list of great matches you can toss a bag of snowflakes at against many diffrent opponents. To add to that, I think Lioness also belongs up thear, much like you & Takada I strongly disagree with a lot of the backlash Lioness has gotten over the years. Dump for sure I think deserves a mention, kind of weird to not bring up someone who's a legit contender for greatest heel of all time. Not as versitile as others but when you're the absolute best at what you do you don't really need to be. She also had that uniqueness whear I always felt I was watching something special when she wrestled and not to say all her matches were great or even good but i've almost never seen her in a match I wasn't entertained by. Never walked away from a Dump match saying "boy that stunk what a waste of my time" Dark horse I think will benefit a lot from a DVDVR set Yukari Omori - There were only 7 ppl that got to hold the 3WA title in the 80's. Your usual suspects we all think of when we think of 80's AJW, Chigusa, Lioness, Devil, Jaguar. There's Jackie Sato who's really more of a 70's star who carried over long enough to pass the torch to Jaguar and was retired by 81. There's La Galactica who only got it for a month to further the feud with Jaguar. And there's Omori who had it for over a year. Omori's someone who was a big star of the time and great wrestler but for whatever reason has been forgotten about and needs a serious re-visit/re-discovery. Even I haven't seen a ton yet but i've watched enough to stand by that statement. On that note i'll also shout out Yumi Ogura & Jumbo Hori as lost super workers of the 80's. Maybe not to the lvl they should be in discussion for greatest wrestlers in the entire world for the whole decade but certainly if you're talking joshi only they're top 20 or so picks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 I think after the NWA DVDVR set, Flair's already considerable stock will rise ten-fold. I think some people are forgetting that it largely didn't matter who was in the ring with Flair - they were going to have a good match. I mean, how many workers could lead *Lex Luger* (in '86) through a 2/3 falls match that went broadway? I think Flair's resume of matches in the '80s would be something to see. At any rate, if a Goodhelmet Ric Flair Production were to ever occur, the argument would be over. Would probably seal him in the GOAT top-five without problem - maybe even #1. Why would his stock rise 10-fold? It's not like his great matches from 1980s NWA/WCW are obscure. They've been pimped for 25 years, and the "Flair could have a good match with anybody" talking point is as old as they come. None of what you're saying is likely to be a revelation to anyone reading this thread. Flair is clearly a strong contender for best wrestler of the 1980s, but he's not a blow away choice for those who love Lawler, Fujiwara, Jumbo etc. Hackneyed hyperbole is not going to change that. Because of the sheer volume of matches available, not just the bigger ones that everyone knows about. And, some apparently needed the revelation because of the 'great matches against great workers' talking point. Clearly, Flair was more than that, hence, why I included the Luger 2/3 falls match that went sixty-minutes in '86. Another example would be Sting in March '88. Nothing copiously exaggerated about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 Pirata Morgan, Satanico, Negro Casas, El Dandy, Sangre Chicana, Brazo de Oro, Brazo de Plata, Villano III, MS-1, Super Astro, El Faraon, Colosso Colisetti, Santo, Rambo, Espanto, Perro Aguayo, Blue Panther, Solar, Emilio Charles, Mocho Cota, Herodes... Atlantis, Lizmark, La Fiera, Ringo Mendoza, Fuerza Guerrera, Black Man, Mano Negra, Dos Caras, Javier Cruz, Gran Cochisse, Americo Rocca... Mexico was stacked beyond belief in the 80s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 Lex was really good by the second half of 87. Putting him in the Horsemen was a great idea because it gave him a crash course on working. Everything from his promos to in ring improved ten fold. You see him on TBS at the start of the year and he is having trouble with a squash. He could not even get the jobber in the Torture Rack. Then his promo was a mess. Check back in around August and it seems like a different guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 Pirata Morgan, Satanico, Negro Casas, El Dandy, Sangre Chicana, Brazo de Oro, Brazo de Plata, Villano III, MS-1, Super Astro, El Faraon, Colosso Colisetti, Santo, Rambo, Espanto, Perro Aguayo, Blue Panther, Solar, Emilio Charles, Mocho Cota, Herodes... Atlantis, Lizmark, La Fiera, Ringo Mendoza, Fuerza Guerrera, Black Man, Mano Negra, Dos Caras, Javier Cruz, Gran Cochisse, Americo Rocca... Mexico was stacked beyond belief in the 80s. I haven't seen half the Lucha you've seen, but I absolutely agree with this. Watching the El Dandy Set and random stuff on youtube and from other sources it is amazing how great some of these guys were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 Again, Randy Savage is the at top of my list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 I think after the NWA DVDVR set, Flair's already considerable stock will rise ten-fold. Ric is the Consensus Greatest Wrestler Of All-Time, in addition to being the Consensus Greatest Wrestler Of The 80s. It's impossible for his stock to rise ten-fold unless the set makes people think he walks on water, turns water to wine, and feeds the multitudes. Don't think Ric is the Consensus? Try arguing it with Meltzer sometime. As heady as we think are small circle is, Dave and folks who read he and Bryan are still the consensus. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted October 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 It's impossible for his stock to rise ten-fold unless the set makes people think he walks on water, turns water to wine, and feeds the multitudes. John Ninja, please! I'll be more than a little surprised if the set DOESN'T have that sort of effect on at least a few people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 I actually doubt it. As I think a few pointed out above, what we'll see is variations on themes that people have made since the 80s: Ric having lots of great matches with a wide variety of wrestlers many of who aren't good and a fair number of which fall into the "That's the best match I've ever seen Wrestler X have!" I think a fair number of comments were made like that when the Watts set came out, which was the last time Flair's stock rose ten-fold... to the exact same level everyone rated him at in the 80s and 90s. GWE poll notwithstanding since it was a small niche of fans, there really hasn't been anypoint in the past 25 years when Flair hasn't been thought of by the Hardcore Consensus as the greatest worker of all-time. Those of us who think we've changed that consensus are whistling dixie. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Just curious, what consensus HAVE we(I don't think I can really include myself in there, but I am a poster here, so...) changed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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