Best Worker in the World in the '80's

[Loss]

It's hard to on one hand really push the "Ric Flair was a spot-fu inventing routine man who made great wrestlers limit themselves to Nikita Koloff's ability", get others to see that point, and then on the other hand deny that anyone agrees. I agree that the WON readership is at large still the "consensus", but to say Flair's rep hasn't taken a hit the last few years is simply not true. On the SC poll, not only was he ranked beneath Jumbo Tsuruta (which is an arguable point whether you agree with it or not), but he was also ranked behind Chris Benoit and Eddy Guerrero, which is just insane any way you look at it.

[El-P]

Well, career vs career, I don't think there's anything insane about puting Eddie or Benoit above Flair, considering he had a good ten years of being a fucking disgrace in the 00's and not so hot 8 years in the 90's. You can argue it's unfair because both Eddie and Benoit died young, but there are a number of workers who had a much better past 40's career than Flair had.

 

Of course, it's not a talking point here since we're talking pretty much Flair's prime only in the 80's. I really don't buy the argument that Flair's work from the 80's has lost some stock.

[Kostka]

Benoit doesn't lace Flairs boots.

[Loss]

Well, career vs career, I don't think there's anything insane about puting Eddie or Benoit above Flair, considering he had a good ten years of being a fucking disgrace in the 00's and not so hot 8 years in the 90's. You can argue it's unfair because both Eddie and Benoit died young, but there are a number of workers who had a much better past 40's career than Flair had.

 

Of course, it's not a talking point here since we're talking pretty much Flair's prime only in the 80's. I really don't buy the argument that Flair's work from the 80's has lost some stock.

It is completely insane to say either guy had a better career than Flair. I'm sorry, but there's just no way around that for me. I see zero argument.

 

I don't see value in comparing wrestlers at their worse. Using Flair getting old and breaking down against him would be like saying Jumbo isn't the best ever because his undercard matches later in the decade were disappointing. Whether you think Jumbo is the best ever or not, the place to have the argument is in his prime, not after it.

 

Same for Flair. Anyone who is going to use anything after 1989 as a reason he's not the best ever is making an argument that has already lost me before it has started. Flair in his 40s had some good moments and way more disappointing ones. Flair in the 00s is creepy. (I know some like him at times, but seeing him that old does nothing for me.)

 

The stuff about Flair being repetitive or whatever else has been around for a while. Dave himself even said it a few times in 1988, and then there was the semi-famous WON at the end of '89 where he said Flair was starting to resemble Jimmy Carter in office. But those points never really gained traction because they were just touched on occasionally.

 

jdw can't even bring himself to call Flair a "great" worker. He uses the term "very good". At DVDVR, people (weirdly, I thought) viewed Flair matches on the Mid South set as the molasses of the set because they were longer and had more matwork. Flair is still The Man with the vast majority of hardcore wrestling fans, and I'm not disputing that. But there are chinks in the armor that weren't always there.

[jdw]

It's hard to on one hand really push the "Ric Flair was a spot-fu inventing routine man who made great wrestlers limit themselves to Nikita Koloff's ability", get others to see that point, and then on the other hand deny that anyone agrees. I agree that the WON readership is at large still the "consensus", but to say Flair's rep hasn't taken a hit the last few years is simply not true. On the SC poll, not only was he ranked beneath Jumbo Tsuruta (which is an arguable point whether you agree with it or not), but he was also ranked behind Chris Benoit and Eddy Guerrero, which is just insane any way you look at it.

I think in my post I pointed out that we, collectively including here and DVDVR and the folks who did the SC poll, really don't have much of a pot to piss in relative to the Consensus.

 

Bix pointed to 50 folks voting on the DVDVR 80s NJPW set. If we had a vote of WON/Fig-4 subs who have watched some NJPW in the 80s, do anyone think the Top 10 would look remotely close to that?

 

We've changed / enhance / enlarged our own opinions on a fair number of wrestlers. We really aren't delusional enough to think we've changed the view of the Masses yet, right?

 

That I or you or the Phils or Bix or any of the rest of us gets some in this circle of ours to rethink (or even think for the first time) about workers is a good thing. Some long term positive, and there are always new fans like say Ditch that come along after some of that thinking / rethinking has happened or is going on. But still... I wouldn't over pimp the impact so far.

 

I suspect that those of you who have argued work over on say the Board get a sense that it's just a dent that's been made, if that. Or try on a place like WC.

 

John

[smkelly]

I think after the NWA DVDVR set, Flair's already considerable stock will rise ten-fold.

Ric is the Consensus Greatest Wrestler Of All-Time, in addition to being the Consensus Greatest Wrestler Of The 80s. It's impossible for his stock to rise ten-fold unless the set makes people think he walks on water, turns water to wine, and feeds the multitudes.

 

Don't think Ric is the Consensus? Try arguing it with Meltzer sometime. As heady as we think are small circle is, Dave and folks who read he and Bryan are still the consensus.

 

John

 

Look at some of the posts in this thread. Flair is hardly the consensus he used to be, unless the term itself implies something other than what it means.

 

It's Jumbo. With Hansen right behind him.

I am really high on Fujinami and Lawler for that decade.

El Dandy is another lucha worker who with the footage seems like he would be a lock for the upper tier

Not knowing jackshit about lucha, my choices will go with Jumbo, Fujinami, Flair, Takada, Hansen, Choshu, Windham...

Well, and the three obvious ones : Devil Masami, Chigusa Nagayo and Jaguar Yokota.

The answer is Yoshiaki Fujiwara.

Or Nobuhiko Takada.

Randy Savage is the at top of my list.

While they are not all definitive declarations, it nevertheless paints the landscape of this discussion in a different color: Flair is not the consensus anymore. So yeah, while the phrasing I used (ten-fold) is as Childs said it was (hyperbole), I nevertheless believe that once the NWA set is released, Flair's stock as what you call him (consensus) will probably be relevant again.

[Matt D]

Look at some of the posts in this thread. Flair is hardly the consensus he used to be, unless the term itself implies something other than what it means.

This place is an Asterisk. Or the opposition backbenchers.

[Loss]

The point is that most of the people saying someone other than Flair in this thread are people that I suspect would have said Flair 10 years ago.

[jdw]

Yeah... that's generally the case.

 

We're a small group of fans. Even lining all of us up, the voters in the SC GWE Poll and the 50 Fujiwara Luvrs from DVDVR... we're just not a significant set.

 

That doesn't mean that folks haven't done a shitload of good work over the years getting people engaged in thinking new about various workers.

 

Someone asked earlier in the thread if the consensus has changed on anyone. I think the example I'd toss out would be Baba. I recall a positive comment from Dave in the past couple of years about Baba's work when he was younger, before he got old and slowed down. I don't think we ever saw that stuff in the 80s or 90s. It's not a matter of getting folks to think he was a Really Good Worker when he was younger: simply the notion that he was a good worker is a big step.

 

In contrast, we haven't done dick to change the consensus on Sayama or Brody. Some of that battle has been going on for close to 15 years. The progress has been that folks that typically are spending time looking again at workers from that era happen to be doing it from a largely fresh viewpoint, and a chunk of them think the two are pretty overrated as workers.

 

In 20 years? Who knows. I think that was part of the Fujiwara/Edge discussion: we have little idea how people are going to look at folks in 20 years. Some folks looking at historical footage already are coming to different conclusions, while some of us who have rewatched the stuff have changed their minds. Or in the case of the ECW example today... not so much in 13 years.

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm 100% with Loss. I can't say anymore because I'll likely get angry and be accused of flaming. It seems batshit insane to me for anyone to suggest Benoit's or Eddie's careers are even comparable to Flair's, let alone better.

 

El-P -- How many times have we argued this? Anything good after 1993 for Flair is BONUS and he still has a hell of a lot of good (considering all round performance, micwork, angles, feuds etc.) in the last 18 years of his career. BUT ...

 

I've said it before: it's like Bob Dylan. He could have died in 1967 and he'd already have enough material for a legit GOAT case. If he'd done nothing else after 1976, he'd already be a nail on GOAT candidate. Everything after that is BONUS. The fact he's got amazing albums after then, just adds to the case. The fact he has some shitty ones does nothing AT ALL to diminish the case.

 

And so it with Flair. Let's call his year with WWF in 91-3 his Blood on the Tracks and Desire. He's already a nail on GOAT candidate for the rest of time.

 

I'm going to stop now, I feel too strongly about this topic to remain controlled.

[Dylan Waco]

The point is that most of the people saying someone other than Flair in this thread are people that I suspect would have said Flair 10 years ago.

I would have said Flair ten years ago, but Flair's status has dropped with me less because of criticism of others that I've bought into, then because of the fact that...

 

a. Flair stayed around too long and wore out his welcome. I understand the point about only comparing peak to peak and don't entirely disagree with it, but there becomes a point where it is hard to ignore post-prime work. Guys like Lawler and Funk have ENHANCED there case based on post-prime work. It seems insane to say "let's ignore everything Funk and Lawler did after 89." If someone wants to argue that peak Flair (I'd say 81-89 based on the footage I've seen) is better than any other comparative run of that length that is one thing, but I don't know how you can entirely discard his post-peak work, and include the post-peak work of guys like Lawler or Funk - and as I said before discarding it strikes me as insane.

 

b. More footage of others has helped the case of others. Most of the great Flair we've seen. Every now and then I'll see something fresh. Watching the Texas Set I was reminded of how great he was again which was nice. But seeing all the Fujinami or Lawler or Funk or Satanico or El Dandy that I have seen in recent years makes the competition a lot stiffer than it was when he was the guy with the obvious biggest body of good matches and largest number of great matches.

 

Even now I'd still have Flair no lower than top five if pressed. There are very few guys I could or would rate ahead of him.

[NintendoLogic]

Flair might not get a majority of #1 votes here. But even at a place like this, if you were to do a college football-style Top 25 poll, he'd almost certainly be at the top. For the 80s, I mean.

[Dylan Waco]

I don't think Flair would finish first here, but I doubt he'd finish below Eddy and Benoit.

[Mad Dog]

Well, career vs career, I don't think there's anything insane about puting Eddie or Benoit above Flair, considering he had a good ten years of being a fucking disgrace in the 00's and not so hot 8 years in the 90's. You can argue it's unfair because both Eddie and Benoit died young, but there are a number of workers who had a much better past 40's career than Flair had.

 

Of course, it's not a talking point here since we're talking pretty much Flair's prime only in the 80's. I really don't buy the argument that Flair's work from the 80's has lost some stock.

They both died before they got the chance to be a real disgrace in the ring.

 

You don't hold Jerry Rice's last 5 years against him when you call him the greatest of all time at wide receiver. Him staying too long doesn't erase the fact that he holds essentially ever relevant record at the position.

 

The same should apply to Flair. The fact that he held on too long doesn't take away from the fact that he had a solid 8-10 years of being an elite pro wrestler.

[JerryvonKramer]

Thing is, if it was weighted, Flair would almost certainly be in 90%+ of voters top fives. Who else would pick up so many top 5 votes? He could probably come out as #1 even if no one actually picks him as their GOAT. Incidentally, since this has been mooted, I'd tip it as being a near certainty to happen now.

 

I think Flair would walk it because the vote would be split for all the other major candidates. As much as the Lawlers and Funks have their backers, are they unanimous top 5 picks now? For EVERYONE? I reckon you'd get people who lean towards 90s All Japan, people who lean towards the Eddies and Benoits, people who lean towards overlooked candidates, etc.

 

Flair would be a common denominator in almost all of those people's lists. Incidentally, without even doing such a poll, this is why he's GOAT. Even if he has "lost stock", he'd be on everyone's list. Who else would be on everyone's list for certain?

[Dylan Waco]

Flair wouldn't be in everyone's top five. I guarantee that

[JerryvonKramer]

Expand it to top 10 then to allow for quirkiness, pet picks, willful obscurantism and so on.

 

I still think he'd be the worker who had the most repeat votes.

[Mad Dog]

All it takes is a couple of 8 votes and Flair will drop like a rock in such a small sample size.

[JerryvonKramer]

That is ASSUMING, Mad Dog, that another candidate will emerge in his stead. I think people will be split and his gross total would still be above anyone else's.

[Mad Dog]

I'm not sure. I think you would get really wonky results with so few people in this kind of vote. A small group of voters have conspired to screw teams over in the past. 2 or 3 low votes would cost him dearly with so few votes that he might easily fall to 3 or 4 on a greats list. Jumbo and Lawler would probably have a big variation but not fall as far as Flair might for some people.

[Loss]

When the poll was done at SC, the only two wrestlers to appear on every single ballot were Benoit and Guerrero.

[jdw]

And so it with Flair. Let's call his year with WWF in 91-3 his Blood on the Tracks and Desire. He's already a nail on GOAT candidate for the rest of time.

Lordy.

 

1989 = Blood on the Tracks + Basement Tapes vibe mixed in (going back to vintage Steamboat feud)

 

I mean... that's pretty obvious. Flair's post-touring champ period was something akin to Dylan's post peak: some gems feuds/matches, some passable things, and some that weren't up to snuff (even if they weren't totally awful).

 

1990 = Desire + Rolling Thunder Revue

 

Some gems, overall pretty solid for someone other than Bob Flair... but there also was that Black Scorpion thing, and the whole sense of time passing him bay as the year went on.

 

1991-93 = Street-Legal, Slow Train Coming & Saved

 

Flair is born again thanks to Vince McMahon.

 

1993-95 = Infidels, Empire Burlesque, Knocked Out Loaded

 

WCW return, people are exited to see him out of the WWF... some actually think it's vintage Flair because they feel the need. But it really isn't that good.

 

After that, it's largely a slide for Flair. There was no Time Out of Mind, Love and Theft and Modern Times, let alone some of those interesting cover albums.

 

Flair was a HOF probably back in 1983 after Starcade.

 

John

[jdw]

When the poll was done at SC, the only two wrestlers to appear on every single ballot were Benoit and Guerrero.

Yeah, you had to love this protest voter:

 

48 Ric Flair

48 Jushin Thunder Liger

48 Toshiaki Kawada

48 Jumbo Tsuruta

 

Joined by one voter on these two:

 

47 Mitsuharu Misawa

47 Kenta Kobashi

 

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

I have some experience of this from the Top 50 Games podcast I did a while back. The sample size there was 37, and I recall having very similar arguments about Baldur's Gate 2 with someone who predicted that some people would vote tactically, etc.

 

Regardless of that, and regardless of the fact that its positioning became a talking point AS people were submitting their Top 20 lists, Baldur's Gate 2 still topped the list. Althoguh the gap between that and number 2 wasn't that big.

 

I'd say that you'd need a sample size of at least 25 for this to work. Any less, and you're right it becomes too volatile. But once you get to the 25+ mark, more idiosycratic picks fall off and the stuff everyone likes rises to the top.

 

From the methodology we used (every person submits a top 20 list, each person's picks are then weighted a #1 pick getting 100 points, a #2 pick 50 points and a #20 pick something like 20 points), over 300 games were actually voted for, of which obviously only 50 made the list. This is what I'm saying would happen here -- assuming there are more than 25 voters -- there'd be a huge number of wrestlers picked for every person's top 20, lots and lots of guys would only get 1 vote. Flair would be picking up points from almost everyone, as Baldur's Gate 2 and a few other elite titles did (e.g. Deus EX).

 

You may be right though, how many people post here and would take part? If it's less than 25 then it wouldn't be worth doing because, as you say, each person then has more influence and something like an anti-Flair campaign could skew the voting.

[Dylan Waco]

The SC GWE poll had 49 voters IIRC. If everyone who had contributed to the process had voted it would have been closer to 75.