Mad Dog Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Also, while he has had an underwhelming year, I still think Cena is the best pick. I can't really argue against this BUT if we have given him credit for years for holding steady essentially, with business seemingly trending down across the board should that note be held against him? Cena is the "default" answer in a way, but I find it hard to build a compelling case for him. That's a hard question as the product has essentially fallen apart around him in the last year. The WWE has had a holding pattern of Cena/Orton/Taker/Batista/HHH/Edge as PPV main events that they used to go through the last few years of the decade. 3 of those 6 are gone and they haven't adjusted greatly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Well I just don't think being a draw should factor in to determining who is the best in a worked industry as determined by the fans. Nor do I think WWE should change their writing based on week-to-week rating numbers in 2011, but what the Hell do I know? No one is going to say that Hogan was better in '89 because he made more money than Savage. I feel like it would be like losing Iron Chef because of plating. It's just ridiculous. So what metric should we use? Whoever looks the coolest? Whoever is the best promo? Whoever has the best matches? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Well I just don't think being a draw should factor in to determining who is the best in a worked industry as determined by the fans. Nor do I think WWE should change their writing based on week-to-week rating numbers in 2011, but what the Hell do I know? No one is going to say that Hogan was better in '89 because he made more money than Savage. I feel like it would be like losing Iron Chef because of plating. It's just ridiculous. But drawing is a part of being a wrestler. You can know all the moves you want but if no one is willing to pay to see you wrestle then you're a bad pro wrestler. Why should RoH Champion Davey Richards wrestling in front of hundreds and being watched by thousands not be factored against WWE Champion John Cena wrestling in front of thousands and being watched by millions. There's a reason Cena is in the big leagues and Davey isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Well, I think it's an unfair metric, for starters. Some guys are never put in a position where they can draw. Dolph Ziggler has been great this year. No one would try to argue that he is a draw though. Hell, the draw of WWE is the name of the company. That's why it's on the ticket. It's not like old wrestling posters that would say ANDRE THE GIANT VS. BOBO BRAZIL. It says WWE Presents: WWE Show. The draw is the name WWE, not the individuals. I think Vince McMahon molded it to be that way, but still, I think it factors into the discussion. People don't buy Wrestlemania because Alberto Del Rio won the Royal Rumble, they buy it because it's Wrestlemania. Just like every year people will watch the Super Bowl, it doesn't matter what two teams are there. Also, what is the percentage breakdown like here if we're factoring in drawing power in 2011? How much of the vote does it matter? Are there rules written down somewhere? Is the drawing power 33.3% of the factoring elements, with in-ring work/"work rate" and promos/talking being the other 66.6%? When it comes down to it, it's all opinion based. Because the quality of matches is opinion based. It's subjective. It's not like this is some exact science. At the end of the year, it'll be a bunch of wrestling fans writing names down and e-mailing them to a wrestling site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Also, while he has had an underwhelming year, I still think Cena is the best pick. I can't really argue against this BUT if we have given him credit for years for holding steady essentially, with business seemingly trending down across the board should that note be held against him? Cena is the "default" answer in a way, but I find it hard to build a compelling case for him. He's definitely the default answer. He reminds me of Ric Flair in the 80s, headlining in a declining company while still being the biggest draw they have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 If not drawing, Wrestler of the Year could be who you think has done the best job carrying a company. Most Outstanding Wrestler only takes into account in-ring work, while Wrestler of the Year is supposed to be the best all around main event-level performer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 I think the "WWE is the draw" argument only goes so far. You still need people who the fans see as draws/stars to carry the product. You couldn't throw out Santino vs Jack Swagger as a Mania main event and just expect 1 million buys based on the fact it is Mania and WWE. Cena is getting stale and business has declined with him on top, but he is still the only day-to-day draw in wrestling. Really, all things considered, I think we now have to consider him one of the all-time great draws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 If not drawing, Wrestler of the Year could be who you think has done the best job carrying a company. Most Outstanding Wrestler only takes into account in-ring work, while Wrestler of the Year is supposed to be the best all around main event-level performer.So Wrestler of the Year is only main event guys too? Man, I need a handbook or something. Is there a category that is like Most Outstanding Wrestler but includes non-drawing factors outside of the ring as well, such as playing their character, promo's, etc.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 No. They are all separate categories after that. Wrestler of the Year is supposed to be the guy that leads a company and best combines all of those things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLIK Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 If not drawing, Wrestler of the Year could be who you think has done the best job carrying a company. Most Outstanding Wrestler only takes into account in-ring work, while Wrestler of the Year is supposed to be the best all around main event-level performer.So Wrestler of the Year is only main event guys too? Man, I need a handbook or something. Is there a category that is like Most Outstanding Wrestler but includes non-drawing factors outside of the ring as well, such as playing their character, promo's, etc.? For the Observer awards? They do have best on the promo, most charasmatic and best gimmick as seperate catagories. Re being a big draw - I think for modern times in terms on mainstream US wrestling it's more valuable to look at who's selling the most merch and moving ratings/ppv buys because yeah, the brand does mean more these days as far as ticket sales in the traditional sense that "drawing" is applied to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Do we count Punk as a draw in that he bolstered a C-Level PPV to a higher rate than it would have been otherwise? I'd love to say Christian but SD wasn't exactly drawing. No. They are all separate categories after that. Wrestler of the Year is supposed to be the guy that leads a company and best combines all of those things. Could, hypothetically, the RnR count as Wrestler of the year in 84 Mid South because even though they weren't booked "on top" necessarily, not in the main vents, they still popped the territory? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Punk had a great year in the ring, singlehandedly boosted a B-level PPV over its 2010 number, became the #1 merchandise seller in WWE, pushed a 21 year old song high up the iTunes charts to the point it was #1 rock song in the UK and in the top 5 in the US and Ireland, generated a ridiculous amount of buzz until booking knocked his angle off the rails, and got himself put at the Cena/Orton protected level. That's more than most people this year and I suspect he'll win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Punk will win it. Bix's pimping not withstanding, it a reasonable question whether he will deserve it. But he will win it. The better question is who will come in second. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 I agree that Punk will definitely win. He's the smart fan hero and that's all that really matters. I think he is a perfectly fine pick in a weak year but he doesn't seem like an obvious pick by any means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Am I crazy for thinking Rock should win Best Box Office draw and Austin should win Best Promos (Tough Enough)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Evans Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Besides Punk, I gotta go with Averno. He's single handily carried CMLL on his back with the Mascara feud after Mistico left. As a selfish point and I'm not joking, I'd put Konan Big on the list just cause he was able to do what so many people and companies, even WWE did and almost sell out Arena Coliseo Monterrey with his feud with Simbolo. But I guess that would count as Box Office Draw and not Wrestler of the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 I really think the days of being a draw as criteria should be a thing of the past. It just doesn't matter like it used to. The days of the territories are gone. PPV numbers are down all over. Ratings are down. Shit, there's not a draw anywhere in all of wrestling, so why are we still holding it against people? I agree with this for the most part Cena seems to be the glue that holds the WWE formula together at this point, but it's as much them as it is him. I'd probably vote CM Punk or Christian as my wrestler of the year, but I wouldn't advocate anybody voting for them, if that makes any sense. I couldn't even imagine voting Cena as the wrestler of 2011. Isn't it ok to just say, "hey, wrestling pretty much sucks right now, there is no wrestler of the year this year"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Isn't it ok to just say, "hey, wrestling pretty much sucks right now, there is no wrestler of the year this year"? Someone has to have sucked the least, though. As such, they should win, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Isn't it ok to just say, "hey, wrestling pretty much sucks right now, there is no wrestler of the year this year"? Someone has to have sucked the least, though. As such, they should win, no? "Wrestler A is the Wrestler of the Year because, hey, he sucked the least" would be high praise, for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 I miss the days when the challenge was narrowing down the number of strong candidates and picking one, not scrambling to think of someone who comes close to fitting the bill. If that doesn't say it all about wrestling these days ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Well isn't a lot of that issue because no one's drawing? On some level, I don't care if people are drawing or not so long as I like what they're doing in the ring and on the mic. I mean I'm not going to get depressed over the fact that I can't pick someone who'd fit into that role. Christian's had a great year. Not as good as his 09, sure but still really solid. Hell, Orton's had a great year too. And Mark Henry! Absolutely. But Smackdown's not drawing at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Part of it is drawing, but I'm with you for the most part. I think card placement is the bigger issue. I'm not saying this because I don't think it's the case, I'm saying because I really don't know. Have we seen better stuff from Christian as a main event wrestler than we did as an upper midcard wrestler? There are plenty of quality wrestlers out there, but to me the challenge in picking a wrestler to win the "Ric Flair Award", as it's nicknamed, is in finding a Ric Flair. Who in wrestling currently most closely fits that bill? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Can you have a Ric Flair without an NWA? 2007 John Cena World Wrestling Entertainment 2008 Chris Jericho World Wrestling Entertainment 2009 Chris Jericho World Wrestling Entertainment 2010 John Cena World Wrestling Entertainment i think Punk deserves it as much as Jericho did for those years, and in 2010, wouldn't it have been more the Hulk Hogan Award than the Ric Flair one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 I'm not disagreeing with you, for the record. I'm just pointing out that the reason it's harder is NOT because the person on top isn't drawing, but more because there isn't really a single person on top who can easily be called The Man. If you look at previous downturns, you could at least answer the question of who The Man was. It was either Vader, or Yokozuna, or Bret, or Flair, or Michaels, or whoever. Now? I guess it's Cena, but he's lost so many inconsequential matches (at a time that doing no jobs all year to build him up strong for Rock would have been awesome) that even he isn't an easy pick. I suspect Punk will win too, and I'm not saying he doesn't deserve it, but he hasn't been pushed like a top guy all year long. The Jericho pick in 2008 was the start of a list of guys who haven't really been top shelf picks because they haven't really booked one guy as being clearly above everyone else in a long time. And I miss that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 If I had a vote and his push holds up for the next month and a half I'd probably vote for Henry. Yes he really did nothing of note for the first half of the year but to me is the guy who has made the most out of the push he's had and the position on the card he's been given. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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