Slasher Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 I'm not disagreeing with you, for the record. I'm just pointing out that the reason it's harder is NOT because the person on top isn't drawing, but more because there isn't really a single person on top who can easily be called The Man. If you look at previous downturns, you could at least answer the question of who The Man was. It was either Vader, or Yokozuna, or Bret, or Flair, or Michaels, or whoever. Now? I guess it's Cena, but he's lost so many inconsequential matches (at a time that doing no jobs all year to build him up strong for Rock would have been awesome) that even he isn't an easy pick. I suspect Punk will win too, and I'm not saying he doesn't deserve it, but he hasn't been pushed like a top guy all year long. The Jericho pick in 2008 was the start of a list of guys who haven't really been top shelf picks because they haven't really booked one guy as being clearly above everyone else in a long time. And I miss that. Not that I disagree but two points to make to almost excuse the Cena booking: 1. The Rock was never this invincible or indestructible character that never lost. Cena doesn't need to be booked that strongly to make the match mean something. 2. The Rock is not a full time wrestler. No one, not even the most delusional of the Rock fans, is expecting any other outcome than John Cena either pinning or submitting the Rock. It's almost a wasted effort to book Cena strongly for one match (or a rumored three match series), when other members of the full time roster could use some strength by beating Cena. Of course the WWE botched that at every turn, so it doesn't matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 True, the Rock was never an indestructible character, and Cena doesn't need to be booked that strong. But if he was, it would be awesome and I know I would care a lot more about the match. (One which I am not completely sure Rock will lose, by the way ...) The whole idea that they have built it for a year is a fallacy in some ways -- they had one segment on Raw and they haven't done anything else since. As far as wins and losses, yes, the time was right when someone like Punk got the win and it was smart of them to capitalize on the moment and have him beat Cena. But even if Cena can withstand the jobs, is it always smart to have him do them? Eventually, it won't mean anything to beat him. Cena has been called both Flair and Hogan in this thread. In terms of sustaining drawing power, it seems like booking him closer to Hogan than Flair would do more to keep him strong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 True, the Rock was never an indestructible character, and Cena doesn't need to be booked that strong. But if he was, it would be awesome and I know I would care a lot more about the match. (One which I am not completely sure Rock will lose, by the way ...) The whole idea that they have built it for a year is a fallacy in some ways -- they had one segment on Raw and they haven't done anything else since. As far as wins and losses, yes, the time was right when someone like Punk got the win and it was smart of them to capitalize on the moment and have him beat Cena. But even if Cena can withstand the jobs, is it always smart to have him do them? Eventually, it won't mean anything to beat him. Cena has been called both Flair and Hogan in this thread. In terms of sustaining drawing power, it seems like booking him closer to Hogan than Flair would do more to keep him strong. Technically, while they have not been full-on building up to the match (and really, they can't, otherwise the fans would get burnt out way before the match even happens), they have peppered in hints here and there to remind the fans, and the Rock is scheduled to show up in November, and who knows how often he'll be at the shows from that point on. I do want to know, Loss, why you think it's even remotely possible that the Rock will win? Is it because the show is in Miami? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 True, the Rock was never an indestructible character, and Cena doesn't need to be booked that strong. But if he was, it would be awesome and I know I would care a lot more about the match. (One which I am not completely sure Rock will lose, by the way ...) The whole idea that they have built it for a year is a fallacy in some ways -- they had one segment on Raw and they haven't done anything else since. As far as wins and losses, yes, the time was right when someone like Punk got the win and it was smart of them to capitalize on the moment and have him beat Cena. But even if Cena can withstand the jobs, is it always smart to have him do them? Eventually, it won't mean anything to beat him. Cena has been called both Flair and Hogan in this thread. In terms of sustaining drawing power, it seems like booking him closer to Hogan than Flair would do more to keep him strong. Technically, while they have not been full-on building up to the match (and really, they can't, otherwise the fans would get burnt out way before the match even happens), they have peppered in hints here and there to remind the fans, and the Rock is scheduled to show up in November, and who knows how often he'll be at the shows from that point on. I do want to know, Loss, why you think it's even remotely possible that the Rock will win? Is it because the show is in Miami? I'm pretty sure Meltzer has said that Rock will be around through at least SummerSlam next year, so it may not be a one-match series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 How well does Survivor Series need to do for The Rock to have any kind of legitimate case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Survivor Series 2010 apparently did 244,000 buys. If my math is correct, 300,000 buys would mean a 23% increase. For a non-Rock/Rock comparison, 2010 Mania did 885,000 buys, while 2011 did 1,059,000, so that is a 16.4% increase. Not sure how much of that increase we can attribute solely to the Rock, though. If 2011 Survivor Series does a 15-20% increase (probably unlikely) the Rock would come off looking pretty damn good. But it all depends how the booking goes leading up to the show, and the Rock returning might not be quite the novelty as it was earlier this year (although it is his first match in 7+ years). And SS PPV numbers will not be available before the voting, right? So it is likely a moot point anyway. I think I would vote for him simply because, in a year of no real strong overall performances, where I wouldn't feel "guilty" voting for a contoversial candidate, his return created a pretty strong buzz, he had some great promo segments if nothing else, he moved numbers better than anyone this year, and he may end the year on a high note. Realistically, yeah, Cena and Punk are probably the frontrunners. Punk actually had it all but locked up by the end of August, but recent events changed all that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 Whatever, criteria be damned, barring something crazy happening in the next two months, my ballot is going to have Dolph Ziggler and Austin Aries on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 Does anyone know how the lucha guys are drawing this year? With no other real candidates elsewhere, it feels like either Punk - who I could never justify pushing for in any other year based on his candidacy - or someone south of the border. And when's the cut-off date for the awards, anyhow? Does Survivor Series even factor into it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 It covers December 1, 2010-November 30, 2011, so Survivor Series counts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 Besides Punk, I gotta go with Averno. He's single handily carried CMLL on his back with the Mascara feud after Mistico left. I've been watching CMLL every week (well until recently when their US TV schedule went to shit) and Averno is by far the biggest star they have. It's even more impressive considering everyone thought he was screwed after WWE put off calling him up when Mistico started fucking up. The only down side is that the idea apparently was to build La Mascara up as a big star, but Averno's continued availability kept delaying the blowoff and now it looks like Mascara has been officially Lex Luger'd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blehschmidt Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 El Generico has had fantastic matches in multiple companies during that time period, and is over everywhere he goes. Probably not enough, but I thought I would toss him out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 El Generico has had fantastic matches in multiple companies during that time period, and is over everywhere he goes. Probably not enough, but I thought I would toss him out there.Wrestler of the year = MVP, essentially. Most outstanding wrestler is best in the ring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 Can anyone point to an impressive number Cena's drawn this year? WrestleMania was really drawn by The Rock and Money In The Bank was really drawn by CM Punk, which leaves um... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 I don't think Rock or Punk could have done that without Cena to play off of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 There is something to that, but Cena's delivery was pretty hit and miss in those angles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 Can anyone point to an impressive number Cena's drawn this year? WrestleMania was really drawn by The Rock and Money In The Bank was really drawn by CM Punk, which leaves um... He sells a shit load of merch still, and is their best house show draw. At this point it's as much a function of the repetitive super push the WWE machine has given him, but it's kind of scary to think where they'd be at without him. Randy Orton was the most over guy on RAW after he went face, they try to build SD around him and that brand tanks. Not really Orton's fault, the SciFi move was very bad for that show, and I think he's on one of the best rolls of his career performance wise.....but if anybody was in a position to rival Cena it was him and it just hasn't worked out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 Is it at all notable to point out how stale Raw has gotten since Rey left. I think his leaving SD seriously hurt that show as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Evans Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 Without Mark Henry, WWE would be almost unwatchable now. Still better than most promotions these days but stale as hell. FCW is better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 Without Mark Henry, WWE would be almost unwatchable now. Still better than most promotions these days but stale as hell. FCW is better. If we're judging this on FCW, can we go with Husky Harris. He's been on fire there lately (and seems just about the only guy honestly over with the irritating crowd). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 What is irritating about the crowd? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 Without Mark Henry, WWE would be almost unwatchable now. Still better than most promotions these days but stale as hell. FCW is better.There's more than Mark Henry, for sure (Dolph Ziggler comes to mind) but the bad FAR outweighs the good. WWE as a whole is really hard to watch right now. It used to be that if RAW sucked, you could check out Smackdown and more than likely be fine with it. Or if both RAW and Smackdown were bad, you would at least get good matches on the Pay-Per-View. Now you get Michael Cole shitting up literally every single show, the PPVs are so close together that they're basically another TV and on top of that RAW & Smackdown BOTH suck. So it's just best, at least for me, to take a hiatus. WWE really fucking sucks right now. Hope you like John Cena and Randy Orton! Also: The Game, King of Kings, Cerebral Assassin, Monarch of the Mat, Triple H, the COO. That damn good. Beaten them all. BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH. RAW is just straight two hours of HHH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 I'm not going to defend the WWE product over all right now but "hope you guys like John Cena and Randy Orton (and HHH)" is something that could have been said for years now. If anything the absence of guys like Edge, Batista, Taker, Michaels, et. has opened up the top of the card dramatically. The problem is the writing sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 I'm the same way at the moment, the fumbling of CM Punk's push has really turned me off on the company as a whole. It's harder to ignore all the little things I don't like when the big picture is so bad. And, they're fumbling the ball on Daniel Bryan horribly since he won MITB.....it's reminding me of when they gave MVP the losing streak gimmick with the idea it would get him over as a face, and he never ever recovered his credibility. It's October.....he's supposedly going to be in a main event match at Mania.....nobody is going to buy that he can hang with the big boys when he can't even beat Sin Cara or Cody Rhodes Probably the most interesting thing will be to see how HHH inserts himself into/tries to upstage The Rock's return, because you know he will. Rock has been vocal about HHH in the past, so they'll turn it into a worky-shooty angle and Rock gives HHH his seal of approval Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 I'm not going to defend the WWE product over all right now but "hope you guys like John Cena and Randy Orton (and HHH)" is something that could have been said for years now. If anything the absence of guys like Edge, Batista, Taker, Michaels, et. has opened up the top of the card dramatically. The problem is the writing sucks.See, I kind of disagree. Although it's true that Cena, Orton (and HHH to an extent) were always around (and on top) I think the exact opposite of "opened up the top of the card" has happened. To me, it feels like they rely on those three MORE than they have in years past. Sure, Punk, Del Rio, Henry, etc. have been slotted in...but it's still just Orton, Cena & HHH to me. I really like what they're doing with Mark Henry. I won't complain about that at all. As soon as he's toppled by a babyface, it will be pretty much a picture-perfect wrestling story. Build up a monster, make him dominate, let a David beat Goliath. That's cool, I'm fine with that. I'll even give them credit for letting Orton lose clean, twice. But then they both said they were done with each other and moving on. Then after they both said that, we get Orton Vs. Henry on RAW. Then Orton wins a 41-man Battle Royal. Then we get Orton Vs. Henry on Smackdown... It's just annoying. Del Rio wins the Royal Rumble, then jobs in the curtain jerk of Wrestlemania. He talks about "his destiny" for about five months too long. Now he's doing title swaps with Cena every two weeks on PPV. He was just so mishandled I don't think anyone can take him seriously as a main eventer. He's a dirty foreigner for the marine Cena to topple, humiliate and embarrass. I just don't get it. Why can only two people shine at a time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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