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#21 jdw

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 08:53 PM

I think both SD Jones and Lanny Poffo in 80s WWF were either the highest-level jobbers or the lowest-level JTTS. I don't think SD Jones was that far above Iron Mike Sharpe and I bet if jdw did a similar break down of results for 1986, we'd see a few wins for Sharpe too.


Sharpe was a heel JTTS.

One thing to keep in mind is that we need to take out 1990s mindset and set it aside when looking at the 80s.

There were tons of pure jobber matches on TV in the 80s.

As the 90s moved along, there were fewer pure jobber matches, and former "stars" effectively became the JTTS. Kanyon and Spike Holly were the JTTS guys by the end of the 90s, but they actually had tv pushes as characters, and got wins and programs over guys at their level.

In the 80s, guys like SD and Sharpe and Horowitz were never pushed like even a Kanyon or a Holly was. Just a different beast. On the other hand, they were working around the horn, jobbing to the stars and working more competitive with guys on their level. The WWF was running three crews at the time: lots of spots on cards.


Poffo has a stronger case because he had a very distinctive style and a gimmick and mic time. He was more of a JTTS than a jobber, whereas I'd argue SD Jones was more of a pure jobber than JTTS.


Before the heel turn, he was a JTTS. I suspect that if we looked at his matches in 1986 we'll find essentially the same thing as SD. The primary difference would be that Lanny would have more tv squash match wins against straight jobbers than SD did.


To make a comparison:

Virgil in 1992 was pretty much a JTTS and by 1993 he was a low-level JTTS.

But Virgil in 92/3 was still ABOVE the level of SD Jones or Lanny Poffo in the mid-80s.


Virgil got a push to challenge Bret on TV soon after Bret won the title in what another poster reminded us was Bret's "fighting champion" push.

Virgil was a mid-card / undercard guy in 1992:

http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/92.htm

He had programs with guys like Repo and Skinner. He got pure squash matches beating the real jobbers. He actually looked like he was programmed twice with Shawn, once right before Shawn won the IC.

If he was a JTTS, it was purely by the 90s definition where Jobbers were going away. By 1993 you had Raw, and the WWF started to book TV a bit differently. They also were in the process over the course of the early 1990s in scaling back the house show business significantly: from three crews to two crews and eventually to just one. They're not really a one-to-one comp with guys in the 90s.

So if Jones and Poffo were either side of the jobber/ JTTS borderline in 1986, who were the JTTS of that time? Let me have a look at the roster on Solie.

http://www.solie.org/wwf86.txt

(interestingly, SD Jones is not listed on the roster, but Poffo is)


Jimmy Jack Funk


On the hell side, yes.


Billy Jack Haynes


No. Billy got a push. Wins over Beefcake, Sheik, Orton, Herc, Adonis, Volkoff, Kamala (right as Kamala's feud with Hogan started) and Muraco. Got TV challenges of Savage for the IC and didn't job.

The feud with Herc was pushed into 1987, including a match at Mania at a time when they didn't give JTTS singles matches. He was pushed all through 1987, and started 1988 teaming with Patera feuding against Demolition.

Billy was a midcarder. WWF midcard faces tend to win as many as they lose.

Paul Roma
Jim Powers


They were JTTS similar to SD. They then got a tag push as low ranked face team. Watch their match with Arn & Tully: they don't work like JTTS, and instead pretty much dominate the match in annoying fashion. I'd put the tag team at the low end of undercard/midcard. Before that they were prelim / JTTS guys.


Koko B. Ware


Not in 1986. Same as Haynes: he got a push. Lots of wins over "stars", and even got to challenge Savage on a house show. Undercard/midcard guy who got pushed.


The Killer Bees


Not at all. Their first match of the year was challenging the for the Tag Title on a Kiel show... and they didn't job to the Dream Team. It wasn't their only title shot of the year. They beat the Dream Team regularly when they dropped the titles. The unending feud with the Hart Foundation, and they didn't lose all of them. Matches with Sheki & Volkoff when they were pushed.

The Bees were a very pushed tag team for years.

Tony Garea (on his way out)


Yes. Didn't work a lot, though.

Even though he is not listed, I know the fed were using former Tag champ Gentleman Jerry Valiant as a JTTS around this time - he jobs, for example, to Uncle Elmer on one of the early SNMEs.

I don't know what Valiant's deal was though. He may have been brought in on one-off deals to to jobs.


Jerry worked very little in 1986: well under 20 known matches... it may be under 10 since I'm going through the Ctrl+F really fast.


Bottomline: ANY of the above would be going over SD Jones or Lanny Poffo one on one.


Garea wouldn't work with SD: they were in the same boat.

Jimmy Jack Funk was really two different beasts: teaming with Dory, and on his own.

On his own, he had several jobs to Poffo. With Dory... he jobbed to SD & Roma in a few matches in Australia.

Roma and Powers were on the same face side as SD and Poffo, pretty much the same level until their tag push.


And ANY of the above would be jobbing to the likes of Dino Bravo, Hercules,Corporal Kirshener, or Nikolia Volkoff.


Considering Haynes got wins over Herc and Volkoff, I'd rethink this one. I'd have to look through Koko again, but he was at or above the level of most of those guys. They treated Bravo a bit differently, but he was something of a special case.

Incidentally, I think the roster was STRONGER around 1988-1992 sort of period. The 86 roster was thin in comparison. I mean if Greg Valentine and Tito are at the BOTTOM of your card, that's a pretty strong roster.


Hard to say. People run their course. By late 1986 and early 1987, Sheik had run his course. We're talking about a World Champ who headlined against Hogan all over the place, and he was an undercarder.

That happens with national promotions. You run through talent. The 1986 roster was rather deep.

On that note, over in JCP, I think the roster was always thinner until the Turner buyout. So in 1986, you've got quite a stacked upper midcard and main event roster, but then there's pretty much NO ONE at JTTS or lower midcard level.


There always were JTTS. Sam Houston on some level was a JTTS in JCP. They just weren't running as many cards as the WWF, so it's no always easy to see. Italian Stallion was a JTTS.

They had bottom of the card folks, like almost all of Paul Jones' Army. Come on... Shaska Whatley? :) Rude & Raging elevated Jones out of the mess, then they gave him the Powers of Pain. What kept Jones Army out of being obvious JTTS was that Dusty did a pretty decent job of keeping the Jones vs Boogy Woogy feud really focused. It was an undercard feud that had its own storyline going on.

They had lots of prelim guys who would be JTTS if they were tossed into matches with stars:


Watching the horseman set, there's a lot of pure scrubs jobbers in there. Sam Houston was probably a midcarder strictly speaking.


Not at all. Prelim guy. Here's the first card out here when they re-pushed as a national promotion:

JCP @ Inglewood, CA - Great Western Forum - August 28, 1986 (10,000)
Debut at the venue
Hector Guerrero defeated the Barbarian
Jimmy Valiant defeated Shaska Whatley
Wahoo McDaniel defeated NWA National Heavyweight Champion Tully Blanchard to win the title
Dick Murdoch defeated NWA TV Champion Arn Anderson
The Road Warriors defeated Ivan Koloff & Krusher Kruschev
Magnum TA fought NWA US Champion Nikita Koloff to a no contest
NWA Tag Team Champions Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson defeated Bobby Eaton & Dennis Condrey
NWA World Champion Ric Flair defeated Dusty Rhodes via disqualification

Wahoo was a midcarder. Ron Garvin was a midcarder as 1986 wore on and his feud Tully finished. Hell, JCP was so "loaded" that Arn was a midcarder in a sense until he got the tag belts with Tully. The top of the card typically was combinations of this:

* Flair World Title Match
* Dusty Match
* World Tag Title Match
* US Title Match
* Road Warriors Match

They could bleed together to a degree: Dusty in with Flair, or Flair & Horseman vs Dusty & TA. But the top of the cards were often pretty loaded, and you'd end up with Barry Windham (in 1987) or Arn and Tully as singles (in 1986) in the mid-card.

The WWF had more "talent", but it was spread around three crews. JCP did some split crews:

JCP @ Fayetteville, NC - September 6, 1986
Tim Horner fought Bill Dundee to a draw
Rick Rude defeated Allen West
NWA National Heavyewight Champion Wahoo McDaniel defeated Baron Von Raschke via disqualification
Bobby Jaggers & Dutch Mantell defeated Bobby Eaton & Dennis Condrey
Magnum TA defeated Jimmy Garvin
Dusty Rhodes defeated Tully Blanchard

JCP @ Baltimore, MD - Civic Center - September 6, 1986
Denny Brown defeated George South
Misty Blue defeated Linda Dallas
Jimmy Garvin defeated Sam Houston
The Warlord defeated Thunderfoot #1 & #2 in a handicap match
Baron Von Raschke defeated Todd Champion
Ole Anderson & NWA TV Champion Arn Anderson defeated NWA Tag Team Champions Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson
Tully Blanchard defeated NWA Mid Atlantic Heavyweight Champion Ron Garvin
NWA World Champion Ric Flair defeated Dusty Rhodes

JCP @ Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - September 6, 1986 (4,500)
Don Kernodle pinned Steve Regal
Buddy Landell defeated the Italian Stallion
Dutch Mantell pinned the Barbarian
Bobby Jaggers defeated Shaska Whatley via disqualification when Paul Jones tripped Jaggers
Ivan Koloff & Krusher Kruschev defeated Manny Fernandez & Hector Guerrero
Jimmy Valiant defeated Paul Jones in a lumberjack match
NWA National Heavyweight Champion Wahoo McDaniel & Dick Murdoch defeated Bobby Eaton & Dennis Condrey via disqualification when Condrey used Jim Cornette's tennis racquet as a weapon; after the bout, McDaniel & Murdoch assaulted Eaton & Condrey with the weapon
NWA US Champion Nikita Koloff defeated Magnum TA in a steel cage match



But that's kind of a double shot/split crew combo where Fayetteville was a matinee, and elements of that crew went to Philly while other elements when to Baltimore for the evening show.


They had A LOT more guys at the SD Jones sort of "top jobber" level: your Pistol Pez Whatleys, Rocky Kings, and Italian Stallions.

I'm prepared to be proved wrong by stats, but I don't think ANY of those guys ever got TV wins ever.


Whatley beat jobbers on TBS all the time in 1986. He was above the jobber level. Here's 1986 for WCW:

http://www.thehistor...rdaynight86.htm

I'd be surprised if you find any jobber appearances by him.

Stallion didn't get many TV wins. He did at house shows against other jobbers below him. He's a pretty direct analogy to SD.

Rocky was a jobber. Not as clear as the Mulkey level of getting his ass handed to him, but below Stallion in 1986.

John

#22 jdw

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 09:02 PM

You had to watch all of the JCP television to see the whole roster. You really just saw the top acts on World Championship Wrestling but if you really break down the roster in 1985-86 it was fairly huge.

Sam Houston actually got a pretty sizable push in JCP. He won the Mid-Atlantic Heavyweight Championship when they were trying to make that belt matter again.


It was a pretty minor push. I'm not saying that is was a non-existent push, but was just to give him something to do. I'd be hard pressed to say that he was as pushed in JCP as Koko was in the WWF.

I do agree that it wasn't a small roster. Just that the WWF's was massive.

Still, one can look at that Forum card I posted above to get an idea of the depth in the promotion when they pulled the crew together for a show:

JCP @ Inglewood, CA - Great Western Forum - August 28, 1986 (10,000)
Debut at the venue
Hector Guerrero defeated the Barbarian
Jimmy Valiant defeated Shaska Whatley
Wahoo McDaniel defeated NWA National Heavyweight Champion Tully Blanchard to win the title
Dick Murdoch defeated NWA TV Champion Arn Anderson
The Road Warriors defeated Ivan Koloff & Krusher Kruschev
Magnum TA fought NWA US Champion Nikita Koloff to a no contest
NWA Tag Team Champions Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson defeated Bobby Eaton & Dennis Condrey
NWA World Champion Ric Flair defeated Dusty Rhodes via disqualification

TA vs Nikita and Warriors vs Russians were major feuds... and those were under Flair-Dusty and R'n'R vs MX. That's a modern PPV level card Then mix in Arn-Murdoch and Tully-Wahoo as the *midcard*? Valiant vs Whatley looks like a nothing prelim 25 years later, but Valiant vs Jones was a long running, heated blood feud that everyone watching JCP new the jist off.

In a way, this was similar to the WWF where you had storylines up and down the card. Even something as far down the ladder as Herc vs Haynes had a storyline, and if you went to a WWF card you knew what it was about. You'd get some matches just rolled out, but a lot of them had storylines that were pushed in the mix on Superstars, Challenge and Primetime.

John

#23 Mad Dog

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 09:55 PM

I think Koko got a title shot against Savage on Wrestling Challenge around the time Haynes did. It might have been non-title though. Valiant/Whatley got some play on Worldwide. Whatley turned on Valiant in an interview and cut off some of his hair. It sucked and everything but it was a B show feud that spilled onto World Championship Wrestling here and there.

#24 Cox

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 12:32 AM

.

As the 90s moved along, there were fewer pure jobber matches, and former "stars" effectively became the JTTS. Kanyon and Spike Holly were the JTTS guys by the end of the 90s, but they actually had tv pushes as characters, and got wins and programs over guys at their level.

I don't know if that was intentional or not, but it definitely makes sense. Spike Dudley and Crash Holly were on the same basic level for most of their WWE stints. :)

#25 El-P

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 04:42 AM

They treated Bravo a bit differently, but he was something of a special case.


What do you mean by Bravo being a special case ? I'm intrigued.

#26 JerryvonKramer

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 05:49 AM

Fantastic analysis jdw and I bow to your superior knowledge on this. This stuff is fascinating to me. If I can draw a bottomline conclusion from what you've said it's this: I've been applying an early-mid 90s definition of the JTTS to the 80s and underselling the level of SD Jones, Poffo, etc. I too would like to know what you mean by Bravo being a special case. --- On another note, from watching the stuff from 85 on the Horseman set recently, it's hard not to get the impression that Sam Houston got a fairly major push. He PINNED Arn Anderson on TV. Every time he was in the ring the commentators would hype him as "the next big thing", "someone with a great future in this sport" etc. He was booked as a young lion, similar to ... say an Alex Wright or Marcus Alexander Bagwell a few years later. (don't know why my preference point is 92-3 WCW, but you know what I mean). I think seeing Sam Houston as a JTTS is pretty harsh. That said, he was often teamed with Italian Stallion, Rocky King, or Pez Whatley in tags of 6-men tags. But within those matchs the commentators hype him and he gets shine time where his partners don't.

#27 rainmakerrtv

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 07:24 AM

A bit off track, but I was just thinking of how many JTTS matches there were at the WWF Big Event in Toronto. I know it wasn't a PPV, just a large card that went to video, but I would have figured they would have kept the level of people on the show a bit higher. Mike Sharpe, Pedro Morales, Tony Garea (apparantly subbing for Tony Atlas, but I don't think his position was a whole lot higher than Garea and god, what a hideous match that would have been). No Savage, no Piper, no Harts, no Bulldogs, no Volkoff and Sheik. Were they running another show at the same time?

#28 JerryvonKramer

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 07:42 AM

Pedro Morales still had some name value in 85/6 right?

#29 Al

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 08:27 AM

A bit off track, but I was just thinking of how many JTTS matches there were at the WWF Big Event in Toronto. I know it wasn't a PPV, just a large card that went to video, but I would have figured they would have kept the level of people on the show a bit higher. Mike Sharpe, Pedro Morales, Tony Garea (apparantly subbing for Tony Atlas, but I don't think his position was a whole lot higher than Garea and god, what a hideous match that would have been). No Savage, no Piper, no Harts, no Bulldogs, no Volkoff and Sheik. Were they running another show at the same time?

The B-crew was in the Midwest. Harts vs Bulldogs, Savage vs Steele. Sheik and Volkoff on cards. Piper only wrestled twice between Wrestlemania 2 and September 7th. I assume he was shooting a movie. He returned and started the feud with Adonis.

#30 rainmakerrtv

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 09:21 AM

Pedro Morales still had some name value in 85/6 right?


Hmmm, I thought he was down to JTTS level, he was in the WM2 battle royal but at the Big Event he jobbed out pretty quickly to Harley Race. I looked it up on Wikipedia, though, and it looks like he made it all the way to the finals of the King Of The Ring that year, so I guess he still had some name value at that point.

#31 jdw

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 09:24 AM

They treated Bravo a bit differently, but he was something of a special case.


What do you mean by Bravo being a special case ? I'm intrigued.


They seemed to protect him, possible for Canada. I'd have to run through his results, but he seemed to do fewer jobs than you'd expect for a WWF heel of his level. Similar guys did lots of jobs as the WWF usually was about making the fans happy and not much into protecting heels.

John

#32 rainmakerrtv

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 09:32 AM

They treated Bravo a bit differently, but he was something of a special case.


What do you mean by Bravo being a special case ? I'm intrigued.


They seemed to protect him, possible for Canada. I'd have to run through his results, but he seemed to do fewer jobs than you'd expect for a WWF heel of his level. Similar guys did lots of jobs as the WWF usually was about making the fans happy and not much into protecting heels.

John


I watched the Montreal French WWF broadcasts in the late 80s and I recall they gave him a full on main event angle that ran across several house shows that was not referenced on the other TV shows so that kind of backs up what jdw is saying.

#33 JerryvonKramer

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 09:45 AM

Bravo didn't really drop down to JTTS level until AT LEAST late 91. He got the better of Ronnie Garvin in that feud. And tagged with Earthquake. He was booked more like a midcarder or even upper midcarder than a lower midcarder.

#34 Al

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 09:59 AM

Pedro Morales still had some name value in 85/6 right?


Hmmm, I thought he was down to JTTS level, he was in the WM2 battle royal but at the Big Event he jobbed out pretty quickly to Harley Race. I looked it up on Wikipedia, though, and it looks like he made it all the way to the finals of the King Of The Ring that year, so I guess he still had some name value at that point.

There's a level above the JTTS. The wrestler who is over but in the midcard. He is not getting pushed. While the JTTS puts over a wrestler in a single match, the next level of wrestler puts the other over in a feud. Usually to set up a feud against a higher wrestler. Thinking of Chief Jay Strongbow in the 1970s, Jake Roberts in the 1980s, Santana in the early '90s.

The JTTS match is rarely hyped. Usually it's filler.

#35 JerryvonKramer

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 10:04 AM

Looking more into Dino Bravo stuff, he seems like he was MAINLY brought in to be a draw in Montreal. He was always treated as a big deal there. According to his OWW profile, they cancelled a Bravo vs. Hogan 20,000 sellout in 1987 because they didn't want Hogan booed. There was also meant to be a retirement show at the Montreal Forum but it was cancelled, trying to find reasons but google isn't giving me much.

#36 khawk20

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 11:08 AM

Pedro Morales still had some name value in 85/6 right?


..enough of one that he got an IC match against Savage and won by COR in MSG.

From Graham's site:

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - August 25, 1986 (22,092)
Pedro Morales defeated WWF IC Champion Randy Savage (w/ Miss Elizabeth) via count-out at 7:19

#37 El-P

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 11:25 AM

They treated Bravo a bit differently, but he was something of a special case.


What do you mean by Bravo being a special case ? I'm intrigued.


They seemed to protect him, possible for Canada. I'd have to run through his results, but he seemed to do fewer jobs than you'd expect for a WWF heel of his level. Similar guys did lots of jobs as the WWF usually was about making the fans happy and not much into protecting heels.

John


I watched the Montreal French WWF broadcasts in the late 80s and I recall they gave him a full on main event angle that ran across several house shows that was not referenced on the other TV shows so that kind of backs up what jdw is saying.


I wish those Montreal WWF TV would pop up, if only to hear Carpentier & Hauray again. Then I would become all nostalgic.
Interesting what's being said about Bravo being more protected because of the Montreal market. Carpentier would always put him over huge in commentary despite Bravo being a heel, talk about him like he was a contender for Hogan all the time. They really never did any big things with him on a national level though. Montreal has such a strong identity, and Hogan doing a job for Jacques Rougeau there as late as 1997 when Rougeau was not a blip on the radar of WCW is telling.

#38 El-P

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 11:28 AM

Bravo didn't really drop down to JTTS level until AT LEAST late 91.

He got the better of Ronnie Garvin in that feud. And tagged with Earthquake. He was booked more like a midcarder or even upper midcarder than a lower midcarder.


I think he was gone soon after the whole Earthquake/Bravo vs Hogan/Tugboat feud. I don't remember him being around much in 1991. He came back shortly in 1992 (during European tours I think) having one really good match with Bret Hart in Germany, and was not hired back. Odd he never tried his hand at WCW, but he probably didn't had any connection, as the Rougeaus and Martel worked in WWF at the time.

#39 Matt D

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 12:03 PM

Bravo didn't really drop down to JTTS level until AT LEAST late 91.

He got the better of Ronnie Garvin in that feud. And tagged with Earthquake. He was booked more like a midcarder or even upper midcarder than a lower midcarder.


I think he was gone soon after the whole Earthquake/Bravo vs Hogan/Tugboat feud. I don't remember him being around much in 1991. He came back shortly in 1992 (during European tours I think) having one really good match with Bret Hart in Germany, and was not hired back. Odd he never tried his hand at WCW, but he probably didn't had any connection, as the Rougeaus and Martel worked in WWF at the time.


I always thought his push was due to Patterson, no?

#40 El-P

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 12:14 PM

Bravo was a big star in Montreal with the Rougeaus. Of course the french connection (no pun intended) is there, but it's not like either of them was pushed very hard (the Rougeaus as tag champs would have been huge coming back in their territory). I don't know how much of Patterson's influence played with the french speaking roster. Martel had been all over the world when he came back to WWF and had been a star everywhere, and he got the biggest push.




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