JerryvonKramer Posted November 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 Fantastic analysis jdw and I bow to your superior knowledge on this. This stuff is fascinating to me. If I can draw a bottomline conclusion from what you've said it's this: I've been applying an early-mid 90s definition of the JTTS to the 80s and underselling the level of SD Jones, Poffo, etc. I too would like to know what you mean by Bravo being a special case. --- On another note, from watching the stuff from 85 on the Horseman set recently, it's hard not to get the impression that Sam Houston got a fairly major push. He PINNED Arn Anderson on TV. Every time he was in the ring the commentators would hype him as "the next big thing", "someone with a great future in this sport" etc. He was booked as a young lion, similar to ... say an Alex Wright or Marcus Alexander Bagwell a few years later. (don't know why my preference point is 92-3 WCW, but you know what I mean). I think seeing Sam Houston as a JTTS is pretty harsh. That said, he was often teamed with Italian Stallion, Rocky King, or Pez Whatley in tags of 6-men tags. But within those matchs the commentators hype him and he gets shine time where his partners don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainmakerrtv Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 A bit off track, but I was just thinking of how many JTTS matches there were at the WWF Big Event in Toronto. I know it wasn't a PPV, just a large card that went to video, but I would have figured they would have kept the level of people on the show a bit higher. Mike Sharpe, Pedro Morales, Tony Garea (apparantly subbing for Tony Atlas, but I don't think his position was a whole lot higher than Garea and god, what a hideous match that would have been). No Savage, no Piper, no Harts, no Bulldogs, no Volkoff and Sheik. Were they running another show at the same time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted November 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 Pedro Morales still had some name value in 85/6 right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 A bit off track, but I was just thinking of how many JTTS matches there were at the WWF Big Event in Toronto. I know it wasn't a PPV, just a large card that went to video, but I would have figured they would have kept the level of people on the show a bit higher. Mike Sharpe, Pedro Morales, Tony Garea (apparantly subbing for Tony Atlas, but I don't think his position was a whole lot higher than Garea and god, what a hideous match that would have been). No Savage, no Piper, no Harts, no Bulldogs, no Volkoff and Sheik. Were they running another show at the same time?The B-crew was in the Midwest. Harts vs Bulldogs, Savage vs Steele. Sheik and Volkoff on cards. Piper only wrestled twice between Wrestlemania 2 and September 7th. I assume he was shooting a movie. He returned and started the feud with Adonis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainmakerrtv Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 Pedro Morales still had some name value in 85/6 right? Hmmm, I thought he was down to JTTS level, he was in the WM2 battle royal but at the Big Event he jobbed out pretty quickly to Harley Race. I looked it up on Wikipedia, though, and it looks like he made it all the way to the finals of the King Of The Ring that year, so I guess he still had some name value at that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 They treated Bravo a bit differently, but he was something of a special case. What do you mean by Bravo being a special case ? I'm intrigued. They seemed to protect him, possible for Canada. I'd have to run through his results, but he seemed to do fewer jobs than you'd expect for a WWF heel of his level. Similar guys did lots of jobs as the WWF usually was about making the fans happy and not much into protecting heels. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainmakerrtv Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 They treated Bravo a bit differently, but he was something of a special case. What do you mean by Bravo being a special case ? I'm intrigued. They seemed to protect him, possible for Canada. I'd have to run through his results, but he seemed to do fewer jobs than you'd expect for a WWF heel of his level. Similar guys did lots of jobs as the WWF usually was about making the fans happy and not much into protecting heels. John I watched the Montreal French WWF broadcasts in the late 80s and I recall they gave him a full on main event angle that ran across several house shows that was not referenced on the other TV shows so that kind of backs up what jdw is saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted November 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 Bravo didn't really drop down to JTTS level until AT LEAST late 91. He got the better of Ronnie Garvin in that feud. And tagged with Earthquake. He was booked more like a midcarder or even upper midcarder than a lower midcarder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 Pedro Morales still had some name value in 85/6 right? Hmmm, I thought he was down to JTTS level, he was in the WM2 battle royal but at the Big Event he jobbed out pretty quickly to Harley Race. I looked it up on Wikipedia, though, and it looks like he made it all the way to the finals of the King Of The Ring that year, so I guess he still had some name value at that point. There's a level above the JTTS. The wrestler who is over but in the midcard. He is not getting pushed. While the JTTS puts over a wrestler in a single match, the next level of wrestler puts the other over in a feud. Usually to set up a feud against a higher wrestler. Thinking of Chief Jay Strongbow in the 1970s, Jake Roberts in the 1980s, Santana in the early '90s. The JTTS match is rarely hyped. Usually it's filler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted November 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 Looking more into Dino Bravo stuff, he seems like he was MAINLY brought in to be a draw in Montreal. He was always treated as a big deal there. According to his OWW profile, they cancelled a Bravo vs. Hogan 20,000 sellout in 1987 because they didn't want Hogan booed. There was also meant to be a retirement show at the Montreal Forum but it was cancelled, trying to find reasons but google isn't giving me much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 Pedro Morales still had some name value in 85/6 right? ..enough of one that he got an IC match against Savage and won by COR in MSG. From Graham's site: WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - August 25, 1986 (22,092) Pedro Morales defeated WWF IC Champion Randy Savage (w/ Miss Elizabeth) via count-out at 7:19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 They treated Bravo a bit differently, but he was something of a special case. What do you mean by Bravo being a special case ? I'm intrigued. They seemed to protect him, possible for Canada. I'd have to run through his results, but he seemed to do fewer jobs than you'd expect for a WWF heel of his level. Similar guys did lots of jobs as the WWF usually was about making the fans happy and not much into protecting heels. John I watched the Montreal French WWF broadcasts in the late 80s and I recall they gave him a full on main event angle that ran across several house shows that was not referenced on the other TV shows so that kind of backs up what jdw is saying. I wish those Montreal WWF TV would pop up, if only to hear Carpentier & Hauray again. Then I would become all nostalgic. Interesting what's being said about Bravo being more protected because of the Montreal market. Carpentier would always put him over huge in commentary despite Bravo being a heel, talk about him like he was a contender for Hogan all the time. They really never did any big things with him on a national level though. Montreal has such a strong identity, and Hogan doing a job for Jacques Rougeau there as late as 1997 when Rougeau was not a blip on the radar of WCW is telling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 Bravo didn't really drop down to JTTS level until AT LEAST late 91. He got the better of Ronnie Garvin in that feud. And tagged with Earthquake. He was booked more like a midcarder or even upper midcarder than a lower midcarder. I think he was gone soon after the whole Earthquake/Bravo vs Hogan/Tugboat feud. I don't remember him being around much in 1991. He came back shortly in 1992 (during European tours I think) having one really good match with Bret Hart in Germany, and was not hired back. Odd he never tried his hand at WCW, but he probably didn't had any connection, as the Rougeaus and Martel worked in WWF at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 Bravo didn't really drop down to JTTS level until AT LEAST late 91. He got the better of Ronnie Garvin in that feud. And tagged with Earthquake. He was booked more like a midcarder or even upper midcarder than a lower midcarder. I think he was gone soon after the whole Earthquake/Bravo vs Hogan/Tugboat feud. I don't remember him being around much in 1991. He came back shortly in 1992 (during European tours I think) having one really good match with Bret Hart in Germany, and was not hired back. Odd he never tried his hand at WCW, but he probably didn't had any connection, as the Rougeaus and Martel worked in WWF at the time. I always thought his push was due to Patterson, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 Bravo was a big star in Montreal with the Rougeaus. Of course the french connection (no pun intended) is there, but it's not like either of them was pushed very hard (the Rougeaus as tag champs would have been huge coming back in their territory). I don't know how much of Patterson's influence played with the french speaking roster. Martel had been all over the world when he came back to WWF and had been a star everywhere, and he got the biggest push. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainmakerrtv Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 Pedro Morales still had some name value in 85/6 right? Hmmm, I thought he was down to JTTS level, he was in the WM2 battle royal but at the Big Event he jobbed out pretty quickly to Harley Race. I looked it up on Wikipedia, though, and it looks like he made it all the way to the finals of the King Of The Ring that year, so I guess he still had some name value at that point. There's a level above the JTTS. The wrestler who is over but in the midcard. He is not getting pushed. While the JTTS puts over a wrestler in a single match, the next level of wrestler puts the other over in a feud. Usually to set up a feud against a higher wrestler. Thinking of Chief Jay Strongbow in the 1970s, Jake Roberts in the 1980s, Santana in the early '90s. The JTTS match is rarely hyped. Usually it's filler. Sure, I was thinking Morales was a JTTS but on further research he would be more at lower level midcard. You see him getting the IC title shot and deep in your heart of hearts you know he isn't getting the belt but you still cheer for him. Sort of like when the British Bulldogs were getting the title shots against Demoliton as they were winding down their run. With the JTTS, the ending is just a foregone conclusion and that's it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dooley Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 A bit off track, but I was just thinking of how many JTTS matches there were at the WWF Big Event in Toronto. I know it wasn't a PPV, just a large card that went to video, but I would have figured they would have kept the level of people on the show a bit higher. Mike Sharpe, Pedro Morales, Tony Garea (apparantly subbing for Tony Atlas, but I don't think his position was a whole lot higher than Garea and god, what a hideous match that would have been). No Savage, no Piper, no Harts, no Bulldogs, no Volkoff and Sheik. Were they running another show at the same time? "The Big Event" happened pretty much by accident. The WWF originally wanted another MLG date but couldn't get it. They wound up booking Exhibition Stadium, but weren't expecting huge numbers. Then Molson Breweries (who sponsored the event) put a bunch of money into promotion and boom, 60K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 Pedro Morales still had some name value in 85/6 right? Hmmm, I thought he was down to JTTS level, he was in the WM2 battle royal but at the Big Event he jobbed out pretty quickly to Harley Race. I looked it up on Wikipedia, though, and it looks like he made it all the way to the finals of the King Of The Ring that year, so I guess he still had some name value at that point. There's a level above the JTTS. The wrestler who is over but in the midcard. He is not getting pushed. While the JTTS puts over a wrestler in a single match, the next level of wrestler puts the other over in a feud. Usually to set up a feud against a higher wrestler. Thinking of Chief Jay Strongbow in the 1970s, Jake Roberts in the 1980s, Santana in the early '90s. The JTTS match is rarely hyped. Usually it's filler. Sure, I was thinking Morales was a JTTS but on further research he would be more at lower level midcard. You see him getting the IC title shot and deep in your heart of hearts you know he isn't getting the belt but you still cheer for him. Sort of like when the British Bulldogs were getting the title shots against Demoliton as they were winding down their run. With the JTTS, the ending is just a foregone conclusion and that's it. Difference is that Bulldogs got at least a tiny TV angle against Demos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artDDP Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 It's strictly net lingo as far as I know. JTTS is a hardcore fan term as far as I know. Don't recall if it was in some of the newsletters before it hit the usenet (rec.sport.pro-wrestling). Jobber is of course a term wrestlers use and didn't come from the sheets or usenet. Folks came up with JTTS to describe the SD Jones type of jobber, though years after SD ran his course. John I've always liked the Apter mags referring to jobbers as preliminary wrestlers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 Dave has started using the term "prelims" a lot more lately too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 They should be referred to as "Wimpies". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 My brother and I called them "cheap guys." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 My father used to always call them "wimps." The funny thing is that when I was a kid and saw the old Piper/Mr. T angle on the set of A-Team, T called out Piper for only wrestling "wimps." So I assumed that was the actual term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artDDP Posted December 9, 2011 Report Share Posted December 9, 2011 My parents used to think they were guys picked out of the crowd who didn't mind getting roughed up for a few bucks, probably because so many jobbers were terribly out of shape and had some of the worst ring gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted December 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 Sorry for bumping but this thread is a terrific read and makes for interesting comparison with the recent Midcarder thread. Having watched a ton more JCP since the original conversation happened, I think as a promotion they had less clearly defined strata than the WWF. For example, we think of Paul Jones's army mostly being at JTTS level and the feud with Valiant being lower card fodder. But in 86 and even 87 before Nikita turned, The Boogey Woogey Man was arguably number 3 face behind Dusty and Magnum. Seriously, who else did they have? I think ultimately JCP were thin in the middle. It's like there is no equivalent of a Tito or even Jim Duggan -- if there is, Valiant is probably it and he wrestles guys like Shaska Whatley. There's a huge gulf between the main and semi-main and the rest of the card in JCP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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