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What If Vince Ran With Slaughter Instead Of Hogan


KrisZ

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Another key to the equation could've been Snuka who could've been the guy to get over in areas that Slaughter might have been as hot.

 

As John said Hogan was the key to the AWA/Twin Cities invasion and they would've never gotten as big of a foothold against Verne without Hogan at that time.

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GI Joe was the top selling toy in America in 1985.

I've seen that, but also Teddy Ruxpin and the Transformers listed. I'll admit that GI Joe was bigger than I thought.

 

I will also point back to: Sarge joined them in 1986, after Hogan got the belt at the start of 1984, and after Sarge left the WWF. It's not a lock that Vince would have let him have the tie-in if Sarge was the WWF Champ. In fact, there's about a 0% chance Vince would have let it happen unless the majority of the money was going to Vince rather than Sarge. :)

 

John

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Just touching on one point of jdw's post :

 

Looking back on it now, for all that Hogan's big WWF run started with a title win over Sheik and ended with a title loss to Yokozuna, I am hard pressed to think of too many main Hogan storylines in between that were based on jingoistic patriotism. I don't think Volkoff or the Sheik got more than isolated shots, most of the main foreign heels he faced (Kamala, Killer Khan, Dino Bravo) there didn't seem to be a big "USA! USA!" element to them. For all that two of his biggest feuds were against a "Scotsman" and a Frenchman, the first was about Piper being an obnoxious devious asshole and the second was about Hogan's unbeatable huge best friend turning on him. The most jingoistic storyline of that run was not against a foreign wrestler, but rather an American turncoat (Sgt. Slaughter).

 

Hogan wasn't consistently jingoistic. But I thought it best *not* to claim that Vince didn't tape into USA! mania given Hogan's entrance music change from Eye of the Tiger to...

 

:)

 

Instead I tried to get across that while Sarge was pretty Narrow in how the WWF pushed him as a face and how they would have pushed him in 1984 given the national jingoism going on, Hogan was much more broad in how he was pushed and the storylines of his feuds.

 

John

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Another key to the equation could've been Snuka who could've been the guy to get over in areas that Slaughter might have been as hot.

Snuka would have flamed out, just as he actually did. Just not reliable at all.

 

Say what you will about Hogan, and the massive amounts of coke that he shoved up his nose over the years: he was pretty much always in condition to perform, put on a "Hogan Show", and made his dates both in the ring and out of the ring. For all of the praise that Flair gets for the dates he worked, we need to praise Hogan for pretty much always meeting his WWF schedule. I don't even remember any major injuries... even trying to remember minor ones from 1984-92 that kept him out for several weeks draw a blank.

 

 

As John said Hogan was the key to the AWA/Twin Cities invasion and they would've never gotten as big of a foothold against Verne without Hogan at that time.

Worse: if Hogan was *in* the AWA while Vince tried to expand into AWA Land, Vince would have had issues screwed. Not the Verne was a genius, but it's *possible* that someone in his inner circle would have convinced him that they only was to beat back Vince was:

 

* Hogan as Dynastic Champ

 

An obvious one.

 

* expand into the mid-west between AWA Land and WWF Land

 

Essentially beating Vince to Ohio, Michigan and Indy.

 

Did Verne ever try to move into those areas after Detroit died or Bruiser's promotion went south?

 

* expand West

 

California was a key. In addition, while you're out west, there are other good cities like Phoenix and Tuscon to also do regular house show... *if* your company is strong.

 

Sooner or later, Hulk would have been in an Expanding WWF. Unless someone else did strongly enough to counter it.

 

* * * * * *

 

Side note:

 

If in the middle of 1983 you had this:

 

* Vince in the AWA with Verne's crew

* Verne in the WWF with Vince's crew

 

Vince would have still kicked the living shit out of Verne.

 

Vince would have had Hogan, and likely a Verne happy with his empire of New York, Boston, Philly, Baltimore, DC, etc. Verne would have thought no one would move into his territory.

 

John

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San Fran was not a good town for Verne. He popped it from time to time, but more often than not it was pretty shit business compared to the rest of the territory. Vegas was solid, but may have been the smallest venue of all their big towns. Phoenix was not a regular stop on the loop based on anything I've seen. SLC was a huge town for Verne. In terms of attendance it was beneath only the Twin Cities and Chicago. Denver was also a good town for Verne

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For all that two of his biggest feuds were against a "Scotsman" and a Frenchman

Hey, that brings up an interesting thought. Andre's national heritage was never made into any kind of big deal. In 1980s WWF. When has any other heel from a foreign country EVER had his birthplace just barely mentioned in passing like that? When you're a foreigner, in Vince's world that automatically means that you're given a (usually heel) gimmick which is entirely centered around your foreign-ness. Even most Canadians at some point have a xenophobic slant to their character, despite the fact that most Americans tend to view Canada as basically the 51st state. By the standards of this industry, Andre should've been forced to wear a beret and a stripey shirt and hit people with baguettes. I understand that he was an unique character and treated differently, but it's odd that Vince didn't do even the slightest bit of France-bashing when Andre was a heel.

 

For that matter, has there ever been any major French gimmick during Vince Jr's tenure? I mean actually from France, and not of Quebecois decent. Cuz lord knows we've had a shitload of various Quebecers doing generic "mincing French bastard" stereotypes, but it was always made very clear that they were from Canada. That's really odd, when you think about it. Maybe it was his lingering respect for Andre or something like that which kept Vinnie Mac from ever doing that? Because it seems like that's the only major NATO nation which hasn't been the birthplace of some bad guy with a xenophobia-based gimmick.

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Snuka would have flamed out, but I'm sure he crossed Vince's mind as Snuka was insanely popular in 83-84. I remember me and my pals at the time being FAR more into Snuka than Hogan.

 

And this thread rules if just for the fact that it debunks the whole "GI Joe" thing everyone always brings up re: Slaughter in 84.

 

And didn't Survivor threaten to sue Vince if he didn't stop using "Eye Of The Tiger" for Hogan?

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I'm not sure if Survivor threatened to sue over "Eye of the Tiger" or if it was just part of Vince moving away from using actual popular songs to doing everything in-house, as everyone's theme switched over around that time. Remember Hogan had that awful instrumental theme off The Wrestling Album before they transitioned him to Real American.

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Verne was already in Frisco, Salt Lake City, Phoenix, & Vegas so he had those in tact. He tried LA in 1969 and failed so he may have been gunshy about going there again but Vince already had LA first in early 1983 with Mike LeBell running the show.

 

San Fran was not a good town for Verne. He popped it from time to time, but more often than not it was pretty shit business compared to the rest of the territory. Vegas was solid, but may have been the smallest venue of all their big towns. Phoenix was not a regular stop on the loop based on anything I've seen. SLC was a huge town for Verne. In terms of attendance it was beneath only the Twin Cities and Chicago. Denver was also a good town for Verne

What Dylan said. SF wasn't great for Verne relative to (i) a normally good core city for a territory, and (ii) what Vince & Hogan would do. Los Angeles was dead.

 

Vince rolled up CA with Hogan: LA, SF, SD, Sacto, all points in between. If Vince had the AWA and Hogan, he would have rolled it up every bit as much, most likely before turning his attention to Verne in New York.

 

Verne may have done some business in AZ, but not really as part of a focus strong "Western Territory" that Vince eyeballed the entire West as.

 

Verne's western business really extended just as far as Denver and SLC. Which is perfectly great if you're an AWA sized super territory. But if you're thinking of rolling up the country, you really needed the rest of the West.

 

Vince's syndication was a key, along with Hogan.

 

John

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I'm not sure if Survivor threatened to sue over "Eye of the Tiger" or if it was just part of Vince moving away from using actual popular songs to doing everything in-house, as everyone's theme switched over around that time. Remember Hogan had that awful instrumental theme off The Wrestling Album before they transitioned him to Real American.

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If hating on Bonnie Tyler's Ravishing isn't a bannable offense, it should be.

 

As for Hogan's relative lack of jingoistic angles, it wasn't necessarily for lack of trying. Didn't Vince try to bring in Nikita Koloff in 1985?

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I'm not sure if Survivor threatened to sue over "Eye of the Tiger" or if it was just part of Vince moving away from using actual popular songs to doing everything in-house, as everyone's theme switched over around that time. Remember Hogan had that awful instrumental theme off The Wrestling Album before they transitioned him to Real American.

I distinctly remember something about Survivor not wanting their song used, or the record company noticing and starting to ask for royalties. I remember me and my friends laughing about how if they had cut a deal they'd be millionaires instead of one hit wonders.
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GI Joe was the top selling toy in America in 1985.

I've seen that, but also Teddy Ruxpin and the Transformers listed. I'll admit that GI Joe was bigger than I thought.

 

I will also point back to: Sarge joined them in 1986, after Hogan got the belt at the start of 1984, and after Sarge left the WWF. It's not a lock that Vince would have let him have the tie-in if Sarge was the WWF Champ. In fact, there's about a 0% chance Vince would have let it happen unless the majority of the money was going to Vince rather than Sarge. :)

 

John

 

I dug a little deeper and found Toy & Hobby World's Top 10 list for December 1985:

 

1. Cabbage Patch Kids and Transformers (tie)

3. Masters of the Universe

4. Pound Puppies

5. GI Joe

6. Voltron by Matchbox Toys (USA)

7. MASK

8. My Little Pony

9. Teddy Ruxpin

10. Princess of Power (She-Ra)

 

November 1986:

 

1. GI Joe

2. Pound Puppies

3. Barbie

4. Teddy Ruxpin

5. MASK

6. Cabbage Patch Kids

7. Transformers

8. Lazer Tag

9. WWF Action Figures

10. M.U.S.C.L.E

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I'm not sure if Survivor threatened to sue over "Eye of the Tiger" or if it was just part of Vince moving away from using actual popular songs to doing everything in-house, as everyone's theme switched over around that time. Remember Hogan had that awful instrumental theme off The Wrestling Album before they transitioned him to Real American.

USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST

 

If hating on Bonnie Tyler's Ravishing isn't a bannable offense, it should be.

 

Is that what that was a knock-off of? I had no idea. I think history has proven me right on that one though.

 

Of course, like most people, I fall into the category of either "Bonnie Tyler only recorded one song" or "Bonnie Tyler and Laura Branigan are the same person" :P

 

I distinctly remember something about Survivor not wanting their song used, or the record company noticing and starting to ask for royalties. I remember me and my friends laughing about how if they had cut a deal they'd be millionaires instead of one hit wonders.

No love for Burning Heart?

 

(Do I get my 80's cred back now?)

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For all that two of his biggest feuds were against a "Scotsman" and a Frenchman

Hey, that brings up an interesting thought. Andre's national heritage was never made into any kind of big deal. In 1980s WWF. When has any other heel from a foreign country EVER had his birthplace just barely mentioned in passing like that? When you're a foreigner, in Vince's world that automatically means that you're given a (usually heel) gimmick which is entirely centered around your foreign-ness. Even most Canadians at some point have a xenophobic slant to their character, despite the fact that most Americans tend to view Canada as basically the 51st state. By the standards of this industry, Andre should've been forced to wear a beret and a stripey shirt and hit people with baguettes. I understand that he was an unique character and treated differently, but it's odd that Vince didn't do even the slightest bit of France-bashing when Andre was a heel.

I think the reason is that Andre was bigger than this. He was basically the biggest travelling star worldwide before Hogan, and his status went beyond his nationality. He was *The Giant* first and foremost. I do get a major kick each time I hear Howard Finkel introduces him being from Grenoble, in the French Alps. Usually foreigners can be glad if they get the name of the capital of their country in their introduction. Not only Andre got the name of his city, but the fact they didn't say France but "in the French Alps" was kinda cute. I guess it sounds more exotic or mysterious to American ears, at least that's what I always thought.

 

For that matter, has there ever been any major French gimmick during Vince Jr's tenure? I mean actually from France, and not of Quebecois decent. Cuz lord knows we've had a shitload of various Quebecers doing generic "mincing French bastard" stereotypes, but it was always made very clear that they were from Canada. That's really odd, when you think about it. Maybe it was his lingering respect for Andre or something like that which kept Vinnie Mac from ever doing that? Because it seems like that's the only major NATO nation which hasn't been the birthplace of some bad guy with a xenophobia-based gimmick.

Well, Frenchy Martin was pretty xenophobic and a total outdated French stereotype, but he was another Quebecois. The reason why their hasn't been I think is simple, because there was no French wrestler on the circuit. Wrestling was big on french TV in the 50's and 60's I think. I know my Father used to sneak in to watch wrestling matches with L'Angle Blanc when he was a teenager. I believe it died in the 70's. So, there was no one to work for Vince anyway. I'm sure he wouldn't have been opposed to make a stereotypical French heel, seen as most Quebecois ended up being heels anyway (Dino Bravo, the Rougeaus, Rick Martel although he asked for it, Pierre Oulette, and the guys from la Resistance). Picking up guys from Quebec was the easiest way to go. Although I wasn't following the scene at the time, La Resistance was just a baffling gimmick. Calling a heel team like the armed force which fought the nazi occupation during WWII is like, WTF ? Was that during the infamous "freedom fries" era when there was some strong anti-French sentiment at least in the American media like Fox ?

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In the build to WM 1, Studd/Heenan repeatedly commented on how, due to the stips of the match, when Andre did not slam Studd, he would have to retire and head back to France.

 

And then there was one of my most vivid wrestling memories as a kid, the ep of PTW where Andre made Heenan make wine.

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I'm not sure if Survivor threatened to sue over "Eye of the Tiger" or if it was just part of Vince moving away from using actual popular songs to doing everything in-house, as everyone's theme switched over around that time. Remember Hogan had that awful instrumental theme off The Wrestling Album before they transitioned him to Real American.

USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST

 

If hating on Bonnie Tyler's Ravishing isn't a bannable offense, it should be.

 

Is that what that was a knock-off of? I had no idea. I think history has proven me right on that one though.

 

Of course, like most people, I fall into the category of either "Bonnie Tyler only recorded one song" or "Bonnie Tyler and Laura Branigan are the same person" :P

 

Bonnie Tyler had 3 songs : "It's A Heartache" , "Total Eclipse Of The Heart", and "Holding Out For A Hero". And she wasn't the same person as Laura Branigan, she was the same person as Rod Stewart.

 

The One Hit Wonder Cop.

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Didn't Vince try to bring in Nikita Koloff in 1985?

When I first went through the wrestler bio's on Wikipedia years ago, according to Nikita's page he was courted by Vince several times between 85-87, including being offered the Mania 2 main event against Hogan. I think it's been established since that these "facts" were all bullshit put up by some fan and all the WWF rumours have been deleted from his page. Still, I'm sure Vince wanted him at his peak and made him some kind of offer at some point. You would have to imagine a program with Hogan in 85,86,87 would have been pretty hot.

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Considering even Volkoff got a mini-angle with Hogan, there's got to be some truth to that.

 

I'm surprised that they didn't run an Uncle Ivan brings in his devestating nephew angle given that he was a former champ. "I destroyed Bruno, and now I'm going to destroy Hulk Hogan".

 

Suppose Vince Jr. had no truck with that sort of continuity.

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I heard an interview with James "Kamala" Harris the other day saying that he never got a big pay day. Like working for Vince he got stuff like $800 working MSG with Hogan and something like $5k working Undertaker at Wrestlemania.

 

Was the WWF stingy? I guess they paid Hogan very well, but was say -- Tito Santana -- on the same sort of money as ... say ... Manny Fernandez?

 

In my mind those two would be on similar sort of pay.

 

Were JCP known to pay more?

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I heard an interview with James "Kamala" Harris the other day saying that he never got a big pay day. Like working for Vince he got stuff like $800 working MSG with Hogan and something like $5k working Undertaker at Wrestlemania.

 

Was the WWF stingy? I guess they paid Hogan very well, but was say -- Tito Santana -- on the same sort of money as ... say ... Manny Fernandez?

 

In my mind those two would be on similar sort of pay.

 

Were JCP known to pay more?

When workers start talking about getting stiffed on paydays, that often crosses into "grain of salt" territory in my mind. Just sayin'.

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