JerryvonKramer Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 One gimmick I've always wanted to see is the idea of an old-fashioned 70s wrestler with no gimmick who INSISTS on the certain old-fashioned rules. For example, if someone hit him with a closed fist, he'd want a DQ. If someone threw him over the top rope, he'd want a DQ. In a tag match, he'd want to see the guy on the outside holding the tagrope. He'd naturally be a heel, but would present himself as a babyface standing up for old-fashioned rasslin' values a la Bill Watts (he'd be implicitly homophobic, bible thumping and so on). The closest we've seen to this character is Bob Backlund in 93-4 before his actual heel turn when the Mr. Backlund character came to be about more than just being an old-school 70s star. It's really Backlund in 93, as glimpsed at Wrestlemania 9 vs. Razor, that I'd love to see developed into a fully fledged character. There are others, but I'll leave it there for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueminister Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 That was more or less Steve Corino's deal in ECW before the Dusty feud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 My ECW exposure is very limited in general. Did he do all those spots? Like decrying a closed fist? Moaning about over the top rope etc? If so, I'll be checking Corino's ECW stuff out in a major way. Something I've wanted to see for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 Not really. More like "I'm old-school and I don't go for your hardcore crap.". But Corino in ECW was tons of fun anyway. The last bright spot of the promotion with the emergence of Rhino. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 I suspected as much, but I do need to see more ECW in general, so look forward to catching up on Corino. I was thinking more along the lines of a Dory Funk Jr. or Bob Backlund only, like, now. It's not so much about morals, but about how wrestling itself has gone to the dogs -- not morally, but in terms of the pureness of the sport. I'd love to see someone stubbornly using a spinning toe hold as their finisher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 Well, at some point in 1995 Foley was doing the anti-hardcore gimmick, which is as meta-prowrestling as you could ever get. Using restholds to get heel heat from the ECW mutants was pure genius. At one point I think he threw his opponent to the ground, foreshadowing the beginning of the wild brawling, only to get back into a resthold on the floor. Brillant. Foley the anti-hardcore wrestler was amazing. He cut his best promos during that time too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 Does Will have an ECW set? I need to see some of this stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 Ask Dylan. Although you'll have to suffer through way too much bad Dudley stuff, including that annoying freak Spike, and probably won't get enough Raven goodness, but that's subjectivity for you (I guess, I haven't seen the match list, but I know Dylan's tastes). Outside of that, I think you'll be fine with the set if you don't want to subject yourself to watch everything (which I wouldn't recommand to anyone unless you've got way too much time on your hands like I did. ECW had tons of really good and fun stuff, but quite a bit of really terrible shit too). Well, the yearly sets do have the best of ECW thus far from what I've seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 Someone who happens to be gay where it's not central to the gimmick or the wrestling style, and only occasionally mentioned in angles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 Someone who happens to be gay where it's not central to the gimmick or the wrestling style, and only occasionally mentioned in angles. Well, if it's barely mentionned, I don't see much of the point, although I do agree with you on theory. I'd like to see a gay babyface who doesn't act like Zaza Napoli feuding with a heel bigot. That said, I don't see the wrestling crowds, not exactly the most progressive (Cena is clearly a babyface making homophobe jokes) cheering the right guy. With good enough booking I'm sure you could get the people to side with the gay wrestler, but WWE mentality won't ever allow that (Kanyon humiliation...). In the same vein, I'd like to see a babyface American-arab wrestler, and hell, muslim to boot, feuding with a despicable right-wing jingoist dirtbag. Again, not the kind of stuff that would be easy to book by the WWE idiots, but really, wrestling needs that kind of stuff to evolve. Oh, and French speaking wrestlers that aren't coming to the ring to the sound of La Marseillaise, wearing beret and acting like old stereotypes. There are so many ways to poke fun at French people while being both funny and current. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 If anything, I think it makes more of a political statement by not being an issue than by feuding him with some evil right-winger. I don't see the need to emphasize it. It just happens to be something announcers would drop occasionally, like "I'm sure Wrestler X's partner Tim is at home right now cheering him on" or whatever. It would come up in video packages or DVD features when they would do more background stuff on the wrestler, but otherwise, no reason to bring it up. Also, notice I didn't say WWE. I'd just like to see a wrestling promotion try it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 So you basically mean the Hasan debate angle only with JR and Lawler as the heels? That angle was probably one of the bottom 5 worst moments in WWE history by the way. It was horrible. JR and Lawler telling the "Aaaaa-rab" to "go home" and expecting (and getting) babyface pops for it. One of those moments that made me ashamed to be a wrestling fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 If anything, I think it makes more of a political statement by not being an issue than by feuding him with some evil right-winger. I don't see the need to emphasize it. It just happens to be something announcers would drop occasionally, like "I'm sure Wrestler X's partner Tim is at home right now cheering him on" or whatever. It would come up in video packages or DVD features when they would do more background stuff on the wrestler, but otherwise, no reason to bring it up. Ok, I see. That would be the ultimate progressive attitude for a wrestling promotion, and I think it's a stretch. It would be cool though. There's no such thing as indifference in these matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 It's part of a bigger point that if wrestling seems intent on always doing something "new" and "innovative" (which it is, despite it almost never working and the old style, basic stuff having better results historically), then give me wrestling that makes me think -- that's intelligent and is aimed toward a more affluent fanbase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 Loss - you say that, but do you think that part of wrestling's appeal is PRECISELY its roots in blue-collar America? Like part of what makes watching Mid South so great is knowing that that old dude in the cowboy hat in the front row basically has exactly the same values as Bill Watts. I mean it does get uncomfortable at times -- I have a problem, for example, with the almost blatant racism of guys like Dick Murdoch and Terry Gordy -- but in a strange way that is part of its "charm" as well. Does wrestling have an "affluent audience"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 That is absolutely part of the charm, and I wouldn't have it any other way. And I don't think wrestling does currently have an affluent audience. But I would be interested in seeing just what would happen if a wrestling promotion made an earnest attempt to appeal to urban, college-educated liberals between 25 and 49 years old. It may have disastrous results. My thought was more that I don't really care to see new ground broken in wrestling. I think everything that can be done well has been done. BUT ... if something is going to be tried that is different, why not something like that? Comic books and pro wrestling tell very similar stories. One attracts that crowd and one doesn't. There are a variety of reasons for that, but for fun, I was imagining myself Vince McMahon incarnate, only instead of slow bodybuilders headlining my shows being my moral vision, getting wrestling popular enough with hipsters that they open independent wrestling shops in urban neighborhoods would be my moral vision. In other words, I was just having fun with the idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 I suspected as much, but I do need to see more ECW in general, so look forward to catching up on Corino. I was thinking more along the lines of a Dory Funk Jr. or Bob Backlund only, like, now. It's not so much about morals, but about how wrestling itself has gone to the dogs -- not morally, but in terms of the pureness of the sport. I'd love to see someone stubbornly using a spinning toe hold as their finisher. Insincerity is a time-honored staple in wrestling, and one that almost always works well. When fans pick up on it, they don't tend to like it, and those wrestlers tend to get booed. One question: Even if the wrestler was intending on using the hold as a finisher, would you want it presented credibly in the company? Should he gets wins off of it? Should his opponents sell it? Should the announcers make light of it, or should they say something more like, "Well it looks like has a pretty devastating hold locked in, even if it does seem to be a relic from another era" ... that part I'm curious about, but I think it's important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 The comic books comparion is very interesting. I have long-term plans of writing a book looking at "The Changing Face of Good and Evil in American Popular Culture" using comics and pro wrestling as my two main case studies. To my way of thinking they go hand-in-hand, but you are right that comics have the middle-class audience, and wrestling by and large doesn't. Interesting. Also, is there REALLY a moral difference between Batman and wrestling? It's both hard Regan-style American justice from where I'm looking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 I suspected as much, but I do need to see more ECW in general, so look forward to catching up on Corino. I was thinking more along the lines of a Dory Funk Jr. or Bob Backlund only, like, now. It's not so much about morals, but about how wrestling itself has gone to the dogs -- not morally, but in terms of the pureness of the sport. I'd love to see someone stubbornly using a spinning toe hold as their finisher. Insincerity is a time-honored staple in wrestling, and one that almost always works well. When fans pick up on it, they don't tend to like it, and those wrestlers tend to get booed. One question: Even if the wrestler was intending on using the hold as a finisher, would you want it presented credibly in the company? Should he gets wins off of it? Should his opponents sell it? Should the announcers make light of it, or should they say something more like, "Well it looks like has a pretty devastating hold locked in, even if it does seem to be a relic from another era" ... that part I'm curious about, but I think it's important. What would be FUNNY is if, week on week, this wrestler would face jobbers. Not undercard guys, pure old-school jobbers who'd tap out almost immediately to the spinning toehold. Could even bring back Brooklyn Brawler, Iron Mike Sharpe, Barry Horrowitz, etc. as one shots. This guy could cut promos about how there is no one he's willing to wrestle on the current roster because they are all "rule breakers". Some guys could challange him but he'd actively get out of facing them on RAW or SD (or whatever show). This for like 3-4 months. Him making jobbers tap out with a spinning toehold. Him working basically exactly like Dory Funk Jr., slow-pace, only 1 suplex per match, a lot of matwork, etc. He could get all his "complaining" spots in against these jobbers to establish the character. THEN, when he's finally forced into some sort of PPV match, the build could partly centre on whether wrestler X will tap out to the spinning toe-hold. When the match comes you could then book it in one of two ways, either: 1. The face goes over and your 70s man becomes a semi-jokey midcard guy OR 2. Your 70s man wins but by BLATANTLY cheating when the refs back is turned -- chairshot to the head ... or maybe even with a bit of classic old-school heeling, the brass knucks, something like that. Then with the guy knocked out, he gets the spinning toehold on and wont release it and someone "throws in the towel" Arnold Skaaland style for the face. Not only would the second option be funny, it would maintain his heat AND keep the question about the effectiveness of his hold unanswered. Beyond that I'm not sure. The setup of modern WWE makes a gimmick like this hard to book long-term, but that's how the first 4-6 months would go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DWS Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 The masked "Matt Classic" character was sort of like an old throwback gimmick. I only saw him a few times in the MTV "WSX" nonsense, circa 2006. But he'd stretch before matches, ala Bob Backlund or Lou Thesz, then used very basic moves. I think I read somewhere that this particular Matt Classic was Colt Cabana, but I could be wrong. Nonetheless, I thought it was a great gimmick and I kinda' expected him to pop up in TNA or something. It seemed he got lost in the silliness of WSX; such as the horrible announcers, the guy with "iron balls", etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 I mentioned this play in the Comments That Don't Warrant thread. The gist of the plot is trying to get a wrestling promoter to present an Indian character as something other than an A-rab or mystic, etc. There's some funny stuff with the Indian guy ending up a terrorist and a Puerto Rican from Brooklyn ending up a bandolier and sombrero wearing Mexican. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blehschmidt Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 Colt Cabana is still doing the Matt Classic gimmick. He has made appearances in Chikara and PWG using the gimmick, and recently wrestled Jerry Lawler for some indy promotion using it. and Loss, the character that Joey Ryan is portraying in that Wrestling Revolution Project is exactly what your looking for. A homosexual who doesn't act effeminate or wear pink or whatever, he's just a wrestler who happens to be gay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 Loss, would you enjoy an angle where the low key gay babyface was involved in a blood feud with a bigoted heel, leading to a blowoff where this gay person won? It could be similar to Guerrero/Layfield in that JBL was pouring on the jingoism really thick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 I don't think I would, no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 What about Adrian Street? His gimmick had most of the qualities you're looking for. Okay, so he dressed up a lot but he was pretty straight forward in the ring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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