Comparing men and women as wrestlers

[goodhelmet]

I have spent the last year watching and talking about Joshi quite a bit. People may not watch it, but it's their loss. They probably wouldn't rank as well, but there are key people in Joshi that if they were missing from a standard ballot, I'd have a hard time taking it seriously. Anyone who has a style preference so strong that they can't enjoy at least some stuff in every single style has no business making a top 100, or at least has no business expecting others to find value in their top 100.

This is a fancy way of saying you don't take my opinion seriously.

[Loss]

I have spent the last year watching and talking about Joshi quite a bit. People may not watch it, but it's their loss. They probably wouldn't rank as well, but there are key people in Joshi that if they were missing from a standard ballot, I'd have a hard time taking it seriously. Anyone who has a style preference so strong that they can't enjoy at least some stuff in every single style has no business making a top 100, or at least has no business expecting others to find value in their top 100.

This is a fancy way of saying you don't take my opinion seriously.

 

I keep telling you I would be happy to make a short list of Joshi For People Who Don't Like Joshi recommendations. Hope to be taken up on it sometime.

[goodhelmet]

The ideal would be to separate the men's ballot from the woman's ballot.

[Loss]

That's sexist.

[goodhelmet]

I don't believe in gender equality in the world of wrestling.

[Loss]

Why not? That deserves further explanation.

[El-P]

I don't believe in gender equality in the world of wrestling.

Wrestling is not a competition. Saying there's no gender equality in wrestling is like saying there's no gender equality in acting, singing or dancing etc... It makes no sense.

[goodhelmet]

I don't believe in gender equality in the world of wrestling.

Wrestling is not a competition. Saying there's no gender equality in wrestling is like saying there's no gender equality in acting, singing or dancing etc... It makes no sense.

 

This is easy. Can I recognize that Christina Aguilera can sing or that Julia Roberts/Meryl Streep can act? Sure. Do I want to listen to Aguilera's songs or watch a Julia Roberts movie? No fucking way. Do I need to judge men's and women's wrestling as equals? The same way I wouldn't want to spend money on a Julia Roberts movie, I don't want to invest time or money watching Japanese women's wrestling. With acting, there is too much interaction with men and women to make a straight comparison. With wrestling, the two are generally viewed separately except for the occasional mixed tag. If wrestling chooses to isolate men and women then I can choose which one to watch. As a form of entertainment, it can absolutely be compared to sports in terms of viewing habits. I have no interest in watching the WNBA (does it still exist?) but love the NBA.

[Loss]

It's possible for women to be better at the same things than men. I know you used Christina Aguilera as your example, but surely there are songs by women you like better than songs by men.

[Matt D]

It's funny but never in my entire life did I question why there are separate best actor and best actress awards.

 

I should nudge Fowler and see if there are scores of articles on this or whatever. Then have him read them for me and sum up.

[Loss]

Well, I don't think those awards should be separate. I think it's archaic and a relic from an era where women were seen as inferior to men. I hate making assumptions, but it's hard not to see "I have no interest in watching women wrestle" as not being chauvinist.

[El-P]

This is easy. Can I recognize that Christina Aguilera can sing or that Julia Roberts/Meryl Streep can act? Sure. Do I want to listen to Aguilera's songs or watch a Julia Roberts movie? No fucking way. Do I need to judge men's and women's wrestling as equals? The same way I wouldn't want to spend money on a Julia Roberts movie, I don't want to invest time or money watching Japanese women's wrestling.

Why ? Because you don't like Julia Roberts or because you don't like women acting ? I mean, sorry but it doesn't make a lick of sense. Do I want to listen to Justin Bieber ? Fuck no. Does that has anything to do with "male singing" ? Fuck no. None of this is related to gender.

 

With acting, there is too much interaction with men and women to make a straight comparison.

Wait, does that mean you wouldn't watch a movie with mostly women acting ?

 

With wrestling, the two are generally viewed separately except for the occasional mixed tag. If wrestling chooses to isolate men and women then I can choose which one to watch.

Yeah. You can choose. Just like I've choosen long ago to not watch lucha because I don't get into it. But it's a matter of style, not gender.

 

As a form of entertainment, it can absolutely be compared to sports in terms of viewing habits. I have no interest in watching the WNBA (does it still exist?) but love the NBA.

Yet, wrestling isn't a sport, it's a performance.

[Jingus]

I'd be interested in hearing exactly why Will doesn't like to watch women wrestle.

 

I can understand sometimes just rejecting an entire category of stuff; I usually don't want to watch midget matches, for example. Yes, even including the talented lucha minis. I just find the whole freak-show aspect of such matches to be terribly off-putting. (Although I did eventually get used to Hornswoggle.) But since women comprise a helluva lot bigger percentage of the general population than little people do, it's not an even comparison.

 

With acting, there is too much interaction with men and women to make a straight comparison. With wrestling, the two are generally viewed separately except for the occasional mixed tag. If wrestling chooses to isolate men and women then I can choose which one to watch.

Is this a bad time to mention that my dream "if I ever happen to run into a rich money-mark who will happily bankroll whatever I want" promotion would be a company in which men and women freely and commonly wrestle each other, competing for the same belts, and are generally portrayed as equals?

[El-P]

Well, I don't think those awards should be separate. I think it's archaic and a relic from an era where women were seen as inferior to men.

I don't know, it doesn't struck me that way. Still, it doesn't keep me from comparing male and female actors from an even point of view.

It bothers me more in music though. I find it insanely stupid to always compare women with women only. When you think for a minute or two about it, things are still very concescending towards women in general.

[JerryvonKramer]

There are separate belts for men and women. Women can't win the World Heavyweight title.

 

Ergo, it's right to consider them separately. The right analogy is not movies but TENNIS.

 

The GOAT Tennis player would have to be separate for men and women because there is no way to compare Roger Federer with the Williams sisters (for example).

 

How are we going to compare Moolah's 150 year+ run with the women's belt to, say, John Cena's long run?

 

Can't be done.

[Loss]

I don't know that I have desire to see that personally, just because the implications of violence against women. I suppose that in a roundabout way, that's a progressive utopia. Wrestling is the illusion of sport, so I have no qualms with them being presented separately. But if women are going to be on a separate ballot than men, GOAT ballots should also be separated by weight class, which I suspect goodhelmet doesn't support.

[Jingus]

There are separate belts for men and women. Women can't win the World Heavyweight title.

Says who? Women have won men's belts in almost every major company in the past dozen years. There's no rules saying it can't happen.

 

How are we going to compare Moolah's 150 year+ run with the women's belt to, say, John Cena's long run?

It's not even remotely comparable, but not because of different genders. It's because Cena's is sadly as close to a real world belt as we have in these modern times, and Moolah's was a vanity belt that she personally owned and controlled.

[Loss]

There are separate belts for men and women. Women can't win the World Heavyweight title.

 

Ergo, it's right to consider them separately. The right analogy is not movies but TENNIS.

 

The GOAT Tennis player would have to be separate for men and women because there is no way to compare Roger Federer with the Williams sisters (for example).

 

How are we going to compare Moolah's 150 year+ run with the women's belt to, say, John Cena's long run?

 

Can't be done.

I think you're making the argument in kayfabe terms. The original point was to compare the quality of work. If wrestling was real, sure, keep them separate. But it's a work -- and a performance -- so there's no reason they can't be compared to each other.

[NintendoLogic]

The only way I could see someone not liking joshi is if they didn't care for Japanese wrestling in general or had some kind of psychosexual hang-up about women performing the manly art of professional wrestling. I can understand not liking the Manami Toyota sprint style, but that doesn't warrant writing off the genre as a whole. At its heart, wrestling is about storytelling. There's no reason women should be necessarily inferior at that to men.

[El-P]

There are separate belts for men and women. Women can't win the World Heavyweight title.

It's a convention. Wrestling is a performance disguised as a sporting event. But in reality, if Vince McMahon wanted to put the World Title belt on Chyna or even Sable, of course he could have done it.

 

Ergo, it's right to consider them separately. The right analogy is not movies but TENNIS.

 

The GOAT Tennis player would have to be separate for men and women because there is no way to compare Roger Federer with the Williams sisters (for example).

Wrestling isn't a sport.

 

How are we going to compare Moolah's 150 year+ run with the women's belt to, say, John Cena's long run?

 

Can't be done.

Easy, we look at both workers merits in comparative skills that are : work, moveset, execution, psychology, selling, number of great matches, promo skills if you want, and that's it. How is that hard to do ? It's easy. It's really easy to see that Akira Hokuto is a much better worker than John Cena, that Aja Kong trumps Ted Dibiase, and that Bret Hart squashes Yumiko Hotta. It's easy as hell. They all do the same thing, with only a few stylistic differences. It's like comparing Jane Campion and Ingmar Bergman. It's easy. They both are movie directors.

[NintendoLogic]

This is easy. Can I recognize that Christina Aguilera can sing or that Julia Roberts/Meryl Streep can act? Sure. Do I want to listen to Aguilera's songs or watch a Julia Roberts movie? No fucking way.

I'd much rather listen to Sleater-Kinney than Nickelback.

[Jingus]

I don't know that I have desire to see that personally, just because the implications of violence against women.

Which, in itself, is kinda sexist. Such an attitude implies that women are incapable of defending themselves. That may be true of your average battered housewife, but female wrestlers are portraying characters who are supposed to be badass warriors. Is it too difficult to believe that, say, Cyborg couldn't knock the shit out of plenty of male MMA fighters in her weight class?

 

As usual, wrestling is far behind the times. Look at modern action movies. It's very common to see female characters who are kicking the fuck out of male characters. It's a commonly accepted part of today's pop culture, and has been for years. But since wrestling still has this bizarre desire to be seen as more "real" than other fictional performance arts, it clings to the old sports traditions even when there's no longer any reason to do so. We're long decades past the point when wrestling became regarded as a cartoonish joke in our society; trying to go back to the industry's carny roots is something which shouldn't even be discussed as a serious possibility.

[Loss]

I know you're right, and I cop to that. A lot of it is in how it's presented. You can do most things tastefully or tastelessly, I guess.

[Sean Liska]

I don't know that I have desire to see that personally, just because the implications of violence against women.

Which, in itself, is kinda sexist. Such an attitude implies that women are incapable of defending themselves. That may be true of your average battered housewife, but female wrestlers are portraying characters who are supposed to be badass warriors. Is it too difficult to believe that, say, Cyborg couldn't knock the shit out of plenty of male MMA fighters in her weight class?

 

 

Yes, I think think it would be fair to assume that she could not.

[El-P]

Is this a bad time to mention that my dream "if I ever happen to run into a rich money-mark who will happily bankroll whatever I want" promotion would be a company in which men and women freely and commonly wrestle each other, competing for the same belts, and are generally portrayed as equals?

In 2000 ARSION & Battlarts ran the P*Mix tournament, which was about mixed matches, and with the exception of your token pervert comedy spot by one guy (hey, it's wrestling, and it's Japan, what do you expect ?), it was pretty straight on and serious, and the girls and the guys worked spots together like it was nothing different. ARSION ran a few of these matches with the Apache sisters too, including working with their father, and it was good and refreshing. No bullshit.