Tropes in pro-wrestling that you loathe

[jdw]

FWIW, I come down on the pro-FIP side though not as absolutist about it as Dylan. I think we can get to narrow on Peril segements in defining them as FIP.

 

I suspect if we sift through 12/03/93 we'll find Misawa or Kobashi in peril... but that's not at all the peril that makes the match what it is: Kawada's knee injury and his peril / fighting against the odds (and his performance in doing so) are what make the match. Is Kawada a face in that?

 

In turn, Misawa having to go it alone for 13 minutes down the stretch of 12/06/96, playing well off all the times he saved Jun's bacon in the year, is a key in making it memorable. But is Misawa really a face by this point? Kawada & Taue might be the rougher duo, but Misawa is more the near-Unbeatable Ace by 1996 than a pure babyface like he was in 1990-92 opposite Jumbo, or even in 1993 opposite Kawada & Taue. He's morphed / developed / grown into something different, higher, beyond that. Jun... I kind of get him as a Face in 1996. Kobashi.. well... sorta... hmm... something beyond just a face as he had the Triple Crown, and wasn't exactly the face opposite Hansen in September (Stan was a bit more face as the aging gunslinger having the arm worked over yet again). But Misawa? Not really an old school southern face working a southern tag against Ole Kawada & Gene Taue there.

 

But Misawa is clearly in PERIL in that segement, increasingly as it goes along, dramatically as all hell.

 

I'm pretty pro-Peril. My sole dislike of it would be 80s WWF-style Heel In Peril in tags where you get way too much Heels being put in peril and just not enough of the time being spent with the faces in Peril. That's just poor stuff.

 

John

[NintendoLogic]

On the tag team front, I hate it when a wrestler will go to knock the tagged-out opponent off the apron and he'll just stand there and take it like a doofus. 6/9/95 is the only match I can think of off the top of my head that set up the spots in a way that it was plausible that the guy on the apron would be caught unawares. And I've written about this before, but I hate the simultaneous hot tag. I can't think of a single reason to prefer it over a regular hot tag.

 

I also hate sequences where the heel keeps popping up to feed the babyface comeback. I had always viewed it as a WWE exclusive, but the last few times I've watched Impact, it was a pretty common staple of TNA matches as well.

[sek69]

My least favorite new trope that's popping up a lot is that no one every hits the first "attempt" off the turnbuckles: it's countered. Worse, the counter get countered.

 

It's bad enough for guys to be doing the Do-Si-Do in the middle of the ring. But in the corner, up on the turnbuckles? Fuck... it's getting as predictable as You Can't Power Bomb Kidman, and makes you long for someone just simply setting a dude's ass on the top turnbuckle and hitting a Superplex rather than the two mutally masturbating back and forth.

 

John

 

I'm a lot more forgiving towards ROH than most folks here I'd wager, but after the millionth "set up finisher, opponent escapes" spot in the Steen-Generico match I was ready to throw something at the TV.

 

Of all the things that indy guys seem to never learn, "less is more" is #1 by far.

[Jingus]

The infamous WWF/WWE Missed Clothesline Transition~!

What is that?

 

I also hate sequences where the heel keeps popping up to feed the babyface comeback. I had always viewed it as a WWE exclusive, but the last few times I've watched Impact, it was a pretty common staple of TNA matches as well.

I've seen that in almost every indy tag match I ever called. It's another reason that I'm not on the "FIP = always great" bandwagon. When the fresh guy jumps in and starts sequentially bumping both heels with one punch apiece, two or three times, then he grabs one of them to do a rope-running spot while they other heel either powders out or is suddenly grabbed by the FIP who was near death just seconds ago, and this happens MULTIPLE TIMES ON EVERY SHOW... ugh. Formula only works if the guys doing it don't always stick exactly to the formula. The audience wants the happy ending, but you've gotta make them believe that it might not happen.

[FLIK]

That ties into mine, how in lucha the first and second falls are not only rushed through most times but often won with the weakest move possible. It's even worse when they pin the two non captains in a trios match to win a fall with the most basic hold possible and they sell them like instant death. It comes off like the guy losing the fall just decided "fuck this, I'll get em in the next fall" or worse comes off like a pussy for losing to a weak move.

I don't think anyone who watches lucha seriously cares about any of this stuff. I mean, face in peril is stupid as shit if you think about it. How dumb do the babyfaces have to be to get themselves stuck in the same situation against the same opposition night after night? They must be thick as shit, not to mention the referees. And how can you work the next night with the injuries you were supposed to have sustained in a FIP match? Some of these guys have some miraculously fast healing bodies. If you hold FIP up to the light, heels should have gotten away with it for a while before action was taken to stop it from happening. All the NWA would've had to do is follow Gorilla Monsoon's old bugaboo about having a second ref at ringside.

 

The first two falls in lucha aren't always rushed through and the finishes are often elaborate. The first two falls being rushed through is not always a bad thing, either. There is good lucha and then there is bad lucha. There is more bad lucha than good lucha. And there is a lot of bad lucha on Galavision. By the same token, sometimes FIP works and sometimes it doesn't. Watching all those 80s WWF tags where the entire FIP structure is shortened to about 10 minutes, FIP becomes worthless. I would rather watch a sprint then watch a 10 minute WWF FIP match.

 

The actual moves used as finishers I don't have much of an issue with but yeah I also can't stand the rushed falls in lucha or in trios matches how easyily multiple guys on one team will get pinned either at the same time within seconds of each other (which happens in long or short falls all the damn time). Mostly I see it as specifically a problem of modern CMLL than anything else tho.

[Exposer]

FWIW, I come down on the pro-FIP side though not as absolutist about it as Dylan. I think we can get to narrow on Peril segements in defining them as FIP.

 

I suspect if we sift through 12/03/93 we'll find Misawa or Kobashi in peril... but that's not at all the peril that makes the match what it is: Kawada's knee injury and his peril / fighting against the odds (and his performance in doing so) are what make the match. Is Kawada a face in that?

 

In turn, Misawa having to go it alone for 13 minutes down the stretch of 12/06/96, playing well off all the times he saved Jun's bacon in the year, is a key in making it memorable. But is Misawa really a face by this point? Kawada & Taue might be the rougher duo, but Misawa is more the near-Unbeatable Ace by 1996 than a pure babyface like he was in 1990-92 opposite Jumbo, or even in 1993 opposite Kawada & Taue. He's morphed / developed / grown into something different, higher, beyond that. Jun... I kind of get him as a Face in 1996. Kobashi.. well... sorta... hmm... something beyond just a face as he had the Triple Crown, and wasn't exactly the face opposite Hansen in September (Stan was a bit more face as the aging gunslinger having the arm worked over yet again). But Misawa? Not really an old school southern face working a southern tag against Ole Kawada & Gene Taue there.

 

But Misawa is clearly in PERIL in that segement, increasingly as it goes along, dramatically as all hell.

 

I'm pretty pro-Peril. My sole dislike of it would be 80s WWF-style Heel In Peril in tags where you get way too much Heels being put in peril and just not enough of the time being spent with the faces in Peril. That's just poor stuff.

John

Yeah, I have noticed that too about 80s WWF tags. The Heel In Peril is just bizarre to me and often it became too much a part of the match. I always have found that to be a overrated period of tag wrestling as far as WWF/E goes. The best team in that period was the Rockers and it isn't even close.

[MJH]

I think everyone's pro-FIP when done well; the hero/es need(s) to go through hardship. But, like everything that works, and gets repeated ad nauseum, it becomes stale/cliche.

 

I can totally understand the original complaint because, let's face it, the traditional 'hot tag' is silly, 9/10. I mean, I enjoy it, especially if the 'Gibson' is great, or if the heels are great stooges, but, yes, people doing it because 'uh, well, that's how it's done...' and sticking steadfast to the formula, it gets very 'meh' very quickly.

 

But, really, how many guys have excelled at the delayed comebacks and drawn-out transitions needed to make it less so? There're the AJ-guys, of course, but the best US tag matches (off the top of my head) tend to stick to that same formula pretty rigidly, but just do it really fucking well... and, really, 12/93 isn't far removed from it either.

[jdw]

The infamous WWF/WWE Missed Clothesline Transition~!

What is that?

In the day, WWE'ers use to miss 5-6 short lariats a match to transition from offense to to defense... or simply to Do-Si-Do around. Again, it use to be like You Can't Power Bomb Kidman where it was so obvious that they were going to miss the short lariat that they'd just wag it in the general direction of the opponent.

 

John

[NintendoLogic]

I've seen that in almost every indy tag match I ever called. It's another reason that I'm not on the "FIP = always great" bandwagon. When the fresh guy jumps in and starts sequentially bumping both heels with one punch apiece, two or three times, then he grabs one of them to do a rope-running spot while they other heel either powders out or is suddenly grabbed by the FIP who was near death just seconds ago, and this happens MULTIPLE TIMES ON EVERY SHOW... ugh. Formula only works if the guys doing it don't always stick exactly to the formula. The audience wants the happy ending, but you've gotta make them believe that it might not happen.

It's not so much that FIP is always great. It's just that nothing else has consistently produced good matches. It's like that Winston Churchill quote about democracy. FIP is worst tag match structure except for all the others. With that said, I much prefer the Japanese style where the heel team just beats the hell out of the FIP and doesn't do goofy shit like the guy on the apron choking him while the ref's back is turned. Come to think of it, I don't know if there's a single US tag match I would consider truly great.

 

I mean, face in peril is stupid as shit if you think about it. How dumb do the babyfaces have to be to get themselves stuck in the same situation against the same opposition night after night? They must be thick as shit, not to mention the referees. And how can you work the next night with the injuries you were supposed to have sustained in a FIP match? Some of these guys have some miraculously fast healing bodies. If you hold FIP up to the light, heels should have gotten away with it for a while before action was taken to stop it from happening. All the NWA would've had to do is follow Gorilla Monsoon's old bugaboo about having a second ref at ringside.

See, this is why I can't really get into 80s JCP. All the real sport pretensions come across to me as absurd with all the carny bullshit that went on. In a real sport, Ric Flair would have been stripped of the title many times over.

[cm funk]

RE: Finishers, it's kind of case by case, but it's almost always better when a guy has multiple finishers, or at least a pinning move and a submission. I like that WWE seems to make a point of having top guys who have multiple over finishing moves. Cena has the FU, the STF, the 5 Knuckle Shuffle (which just like the People's Elbow shouldn't be a finishing move, but it's over....) and on special occasions he busts out the atomic guillotine legdrop or Super FU. Undertaker has the Tombstone, chokeslam and Hell's Gate. Jericho has the Codebreaker, Walls of Jericho, Lionsault and Flashback. Most of the best guys change things up and introduce new moves into their arsenal.

 

RE: Tag formula, I've always been a fan of matches that take the FIP trope and put different spins on it. I like matches with multiple heat segments/hot tags, hot tag teases and cutoffs, babyfaces getting off to a hot start leading to delayed heat etc. etc. Standard FIP->hot tag->pinfall can be really good if done well, but more often than not it's boring to me after seeing it played out note by note for years

[Loss]

This thread is getting a little ridiculous. There has never been a great tag team match in the U.S. Every institution in wrestling sucks. Embarrassing.

[Loss]

I think they should get rid of the ring. Wrestling promotions that rely on a ring to have matches are clearly uninspired and are clinging to an archaic tradition for no real reason. Also, why are there three counts? Could someone really be put in a compromising position for three seconds in a real fight?

 

Faces and heels are tired. Fans who like to cheer babyfaces and boo heels are thinking too much inside the box.

 

And why do they have championships? Everyone knows wrestling is fake, so it's not like winning a title symbolizes anything.

 

I look forward to a more innovative time in pro wrestling -- one where the unbroken gets fixed and what has worked for more than a century is declared old hat.

[rainmakerrtv]

I think they should get rid of the ring. Wrestling promotions that rely on a ring to have matches are clearly uninspired and are clinging to an archaic tradition for no real reason. Also, why are there three counts? Could someone really be put in a compromising position for three seconds in a real fight?

 

Faces and heels are tired. Fans who like to cheer babyfaces and boo heels are thinking too much inside the box.

 

And why do they have championships? Everyone knows wrestling is fake, so it's not like winning a title symbolizes anything.

 

I look forward to a more innovative time in pro wrestling -- one where the unbroken gets fixed and what has worked for more than a century is declared old hat.

Russo?

[ohtani's jacket]

Sounds like the second UWF or RINGS.

[PeteF3]

See, this is why I can't really get into 80s JCP. All the real sport pretensions come across to me as absurd with all the carny bullshit that went on. In a real sport, Ric Flair would have been stripped of the title many times over.

And Stan Hansen wouldn't have? In real life, beating the shit out of someone with a cowbell and chairs after the bell would probably result in a multiple-month suspension, not to mention an arrest. '90s All-Japan didn't have any less carny bullshit than JCP, they were just better at hiding it.

[Frankensteiner]

The point about JCP is interesting as a comp to the WWF. As far as I can tell, the opinion was and is that JCP was some sort of serious pro-wrestling alternative to the cartoony-style 80’s WWF, with Flair and Hogan representative of the gap between the two companies. In reality Flair was just as much of a cartoon as Hogan, and JCP ran as much bullshit as the WWF. The only differences were that Flair wrestled a more athletic style than Hulk, and the JCP cartoon was a slightly darker, more violent version of the WWF one.

[Negro Suave]

RE: FIP on the indys

It's pretty much neccessary and it's just a univeral entertainment spot. I don't understand the hate for it really. Doesn't matter how it is done, the cheating heels just working up a firey baby face on the outside, dominant heels out matching the plucky faces, it's all good.

 

RE: Ref made of glass

I would hate to see this change, the idea that the guys in the ring are beating the snot out of each other at full force would be lost if the ref didn't bump off of a glance.... some refs take it to extremes. And getting away with dirty play is a constant in all sports so why not wrestling?

 

I hate the respect stand off or the "indy standoff" as it is sometimes called. To me you are showing a bit to much of the "this is a show" hand. it's almsot as if you are just begging for a reaction instead of getting one.

[Ditch]

In reality Flair was just as much of a cartoon as Hogan

Hogan was Jesus With Muscles. Flair was a vain, jet-setting SOB. The more '80s Flair promos I watch, the clearer it becomes that Flair was absolutely *not* a cartoon. Over-the-top, yes, but not a cartoon. The same can be said about the vast majority of big JCP names.

 

A good comparison would be Million Dollar Man Ted DiBiase to Flair. DiBiase was more of a gimmick; Flair was more of a character. For instance, the "Creation of the Million Dollar Title" vignette:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMDRdnMDSto

 

Compare to, say, an angle where Flair tries to buy the love of Precious because she has a big rack, or he buys a suit for Magnum TA because he hates Magnum's fashion sense. It's still 'sports entertainment', but it's endlessly closer to what one would actually see in real life. DiBiase skit is clearly scripted and rehearsed.

[NintendoLogic]

See, this is why I can't really get into 80s JCP. All the real sport pretensions come across to me as absurd with all the carny bullshit that went on. In a real sport, Ric Flair would have been stripped of the title many times over.

And Stan Hansen wouldn't have? In real life, beating the shit out of someone with a cowbell and chairs after the bell would probably result in a multiple-month suspension, not to mention an arrest. '90s All-Japan didn't have any less carny bullshit than JCP, they were just better at hiding it.

 

I don't remember Hansen ever hitting anybody with a cowbell in a Triple Crown match. There's a difference between a heated grudge match and a title match that's supposed to determine the best wrestler in the company.

[jdw]

This thread is getting a little ridiculous. There has never been a great tag team match in the U.S. Every institution in wrestling sucks. Embarrassing.

Oh lord.

 

One person said the first thing, and it's not like the was a long line of people running in to agree with him.

 

On the second one, I don't think anyone said that. But honestly, if you think too hard about Pro Wrestling and compare it with other good/great forms of Entertainment and Sports... well... wrestling is kind of... um... it's... er... really poor/shitty.

 

It's OUR shitty dumbass form of entertainment and we love it for what it is. But serious, take whatever pieces of entertainment that you think at Great, and stack them up against your average good-to-great pro wrestling and... yeah, we accept a lot of silly, goofy, dumbass nonsense out of pro wrestling... even in the *best* of Pro Wrestling.

 

Again, it's OURS, we accept and love it... but come on, we love a lot of dumbass shit about it.

 

John

[Mr Wrestling X]

I'm trying to think of which wrestler or wrestler(s) pioneered the "five moves of doom" routine (as it's known nowadays). My first thought was to say Hulk Hogan, as the whole "Hulkin up" part of any Hogan match immediately springs to mind, but I'm pretty sure I've seen earlier examples. I seem to recall some old NWA matches that ended with the same routine, with Terry Funk and Dusty Rhodes being the first examples that spring to mind. The "five moves of doom" doesn't have to be five moves, as taken from Hulk Hogan's match finish (punch, punch, Irish whip, big boot, atomic leg drop), rather the "five moves of doom" trope can be applied to any sequence of moves that is used to end matches by a wrestler on multiple occasions and in situations that offer little or no variation (take Hogan's punch ALWAYS sending his opponent into the ropes).

 

Anyone got any ideas as to who was the first wrestler to perform the "# moves of doom"?

[Ricky Jackson]

William Muldoon

[sek69]

I'm trying to think of which wrestler or wrestler(s) pioneered the "five moves of doom" routine (as it's known nowadays). My first thought was to say Hulk Hogan, as the whole "Hulkin up" part of any Hogan match immediately springs to mind, but I'm pretty sure I've seen earlier examples. I seem to recall some old NWA matches that ended with the same routine, with Terry Funk and Dusty Rhodes being the first examples that spring to mind. The "five moves of doom" doesn't have to be five moves, as taken from Hulk Hogan's match finish (punch, punch, Irish whip, big boot, atomic leg drop), rather the "five moves of doom" trope can be applied to any sequence of moves that is used to end matches by a wrestler on multiple occasions and in situations that offer little or no variation (take Hogan's punch ALWAYS sending his opponent into the ropes).

 

Anyone got any ideas as to who was the first wrestler to perform the "# moves of doom"?

 

I don't know who was the first to do the moves of doom routine, but Chief Jay was Hulking Up long before Hogan.

[NintendoLogic]

Oh lord.

 

One person said the first thing, and it's not like the was a long line of people running in to agree with him.

I stand by that statement. I don't enjoy cornball Southern wrestling, so Midnight Express matches with stooge spots and comedy bumps do nothing for me. And the WWE has generally treated its tag division as something that workers with potential are supposed to graduate from, which limits the potential for high-end matches on that front.

 

On the second one, I don't think anyone said that. But honestly, if you think too hard about Pro Wrestling and compare it with other good/great forms of Entertainment and Sports... well... wrestling is kind of... um... it's... er... really poor/shitty.

 

It's OUR shitty dumbass form of entertainment and we love it for what it is. But serious, take whatever pieces of entertainment that you think at Great, and stack them up against your average good-to-great pro wrestling and... yeah, we accept a lot of silly, goofy, dumbass nonsense out of pro wrestling... even in the *best* of Pro Wrestling.

 

Again, it's OURS, we accept and love it... but come on, we love a lot of dumbass shit about it.

 

John

Pretty much this. Think of the most brilliantly executed and well-received angles in wrestling history. How many of them would even rise to the level of a quality soap opera storyline? And the in-ring action is filled with things you simply have to accept. Suspension of disbelief isn't something you can just turn on like a light switch, and just because you buy into one aspect of wrestling doesn't mean you're going to buy into others. It's fun to pretend that watching and liking wrestling is a purely intellectual exercise, but it's really mostly subjective and unquantifiable. Probably 90% of what happens in wrestling boils down to "you either buy it or you don't."

[jdw]

Oh lord.

 

One person said the first thing, and it's not like the was a long line of people running in to agree with him.

I stand by that statement. I don't enjoy cornball Southern wrestling, so Midnight Express matches with stooge spots and comedy bumps do nothing for me. And the WWE has generally treated its tag division as something that workers with potential are supposed to graduate from, which limits the potential for high-end matches on that front.

I'm sure you stand by it. But one person in a multi-page thread saying something that Loss though was over broad isn't a great reason for Loss to go:

 

"This thread is getting a little ridiculous. [...] Embarrassing."

 

I suspect that he'd admit that while he disagrees with your POV on that one, that he went overboard in his response. He probably read that at a time where it just hit him wrong and he snapped.

 

John