Jump to content


Photo

Ring of Honor Wrestling


  • Please log in to reply
1373 replies to this topic

#21 NintendoLogic

NintendoLogic

    Grim and frostbitten

  • Members
  • 2661 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 07 July 2012 - 04:58 PM

I think it's funny that one group of fans thinks Cornette is trying to turn ROH into Smoky Mountain while another group thinks he's doing too much faux MMA.

#22 Bix

Bix
  • DVDVR 80s Project
  • 6237 posts

Posted 07 July 2012 - 05:06 PM

The Smoky Mountain of Honor talking point is BS aside from the ether soaked rag and The Headbangers coming in. It's just something people who have never seen are using to say Cornette is out of touch. There's definitely an argument that, depending on how much credit Cornette deserves for his WCW booking committee stint, peak OVW might actually be his best work.

#23 rovert

rovert
  • Banned
  • 2903 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dublin, Ireland

Posted 07 July 2012 - 05:19 PM

The Smoky Mountain of Honor talking point is BS aside from the ether soaked rag and The Headbangers coming in. It's just something people who have never seen are using to say Cornette is out of touch.



For the sake of the thread Austin Aries was the one who coined that term in a never expanded upon Tweet.

#24 Cox

Cox
  • Members
  • 1754 posts

Posted 07 July 2012 - 05:28 PM

The Smoky Mountain of Honor talking point is BS aside from the ether soaked rag and The Headbangers coming in. It's just something people who have never seen are using to say Cornette is out of touch.


He banned the piledriver too. There's definitely some elements used in ROH that were used in old southern territories, but to say that ROH is being booked like a southern territory is a whole different matter and is pretty false. Southern territories were generally booked well.

#25 MikeCampbell

MikeCampbell

    80% of crazy!

  • Members
  • 2142 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:North Syracuse, Ny

Posted 07 July 2012 - 05:36 PM

ROH's TV method of taping TV 4 weeks at at time was considered outdated when ECW was doing it with Hardcore TV and TNN, and that was 12 years ago.

#26 NintendoLogic

NintendoLogic

    Grim and frostbitten

  • Members
  • 2661 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 07 July 2012 - 06:05 PM

The point I was trying to make is that struggling promotions are like a Rorschach test. A lot of people will decide that whatever they don't like is the reason the promotion is struggling. Some people see an ether soaked rag and conclude that ROH sucks because it's become Smoky Mountain of Honor. Others see a Hybrid Fighting Rules match and conclude that ROH sucks because Cornette is drinking Meltzer's MMA Kool-Aid (I really wish that talking point would die).

#27 rovert

rovert
  • Banned
  • 2903 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dublin, Ireland

Posted 07 July 2012 - 06:16 PM

Others see a Hybrid Fighting Rules match and conclude that ROH sucks because Cornette is drinking Meltzer's MMA Kool-Aid (I really wish that talking point would die).



Well my "talking point" is that Cornette knows MMA is big as he sees Dave devote vast sections to it but he never actually reads/understands it. I said that months ago as ROH doesn't convey any knowledge of what made UFC/MMA a success: Youth branding and coolness. It is very hard to make a case Cornette's booking isn't influenced by it as one of his main programs was based around a beef of the choice of training partners.

In that Guest Booker shoot I referred to earlier Cornette is wearing one of those terrible Affliction shirts. Meltzer years ago noted with glee in the Observer that Cornette was filling up a big ledger with new finishes inspired by MMA.

#28 jdw

jdw
  • Members
  • 8040 posts

Posted 07 July 2012 - 06:57 PM

It is pretty funny that both Cornette and Heyman have gone all MMA. John

#29 Loss

Loss
  • Admins
  • 43387 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 07 July 2012 - 07:04 PM

I think it's time people stopped talking about Cornette like he's a wrestling genius. Truth is, he's really not. Having watched a lot of SMW, his strengths as booker were rerunning old Mid South and Memphis stuff that did get over, and using a crew of strong workers. But he also did a LOT of stupid shit. Stipulations didn't mean anything because they were regularly broken (Bob Armstrong comes back under a mask, Ricky Morton doesn't get his hair cut, etc). Cornette felt that if he screwed the fans out of something they didn't want to see, they would think it was OK, but the truth is, eventually the fans got tired of being promised something and not delivering.

He also didn't know how to book a top babyface to save his life. Brian Lee wasn't ideal as a top babyface to begin with, but Cornette did him no favors. Smothers was a great top babyface, and the booking constantly dicked around with him. Fact is, in four years, the only babyfaces that weren't hurt by the booking were the Dirty White Boy (and his turn was admittedly pretty great), the Rock 'n' Roll Express, and Bob Armstrong.

Based on his track record, Cornette is not nearly as smart as people think he is. He is buying right into the Dave Meltzer "pro wrestling is MMA" talking point BS and trying to attract an MMA audience for pro wrestling. That's not going to work, because MMA fans don't want to watch a fake version of a real sport, when the real thing is already horribly overexposed in this country. The whole game plan just isn't going to work, and I'm sure five years from now, Cornette will have all sorts of excuses as to why it didn't work, but the fact is, it's not a good plan and the proof is right there in the open with ROH's poor gates outside of a few markets.


This post really nails it. I don't know that Cornette needs to be a wrestling genius, as long as the angles he copies are good and fit what he is trying to accomplish. I don't really expect originality in wrestling booking, as most of the time, it doesn't produce anything worth watching. But yeah, Cornette is nearly as much in the bubble as Vince McMahon.

#30 rovert

rovert
  • Banned
  • 2903 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dublin, Ireland

Posted 07 July 2012 - 07:07 PM

It is pretty funny that both Cornette and Heyman have gone all MMA.

John


MMIA? :P

#31 NintendoLogic

NintendoLogic

    Grim and frostbitten

  • Members
  • 2661 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 07 July 2012 - 07:29 PM

Every promotion has been influenced by MMA in recent years. ROH just doesn't have the talent to draw nationally.

#32 jdw

jdw
  • Members
  • 8040 posts

Posted 07 July 2012 - 07:43 PM

Every promotion has been influenced by MMA in recent years.


Has the NFL been strongly influenced by MMA in recent years? The EPL?

John

#33 Mad Dog

Mad Dog
  • Members
  • 4705 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 07 July 2012 - 07:51 PM

Every promotion has been influenced by MMA in recent years. ROH just doesn't have the talent to draw nationally.


That's true. But RoH was making it a focal point of the company. There's a difference between Jeff Jarrett doing the Double M-A gimmick or Taker busting out MMA moves in matches and doing an entire feud like it's an MMA match. When workers and fans are complaining about it, there's a problem.

And I agree, they don't have the talent to draw nationally but they could still help themselves by not doing things that everyone clearly seems to hate.

#34 Tim Evans

Tim Evans
  • Members
  • 3965 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 07 July 2012 - 07:54 PM

I was watching WWC tv today and they had Davey Richards and Melina vs Velvet Sky and some WWC wrestler. It was amazing to watch Davey in this enviorment where he's not doing the Fake MMA thing and doing heel stooging. He even sold offense for Velvet. If Davey was more like that all the time, I'd enjoy watching him. Also since this seems to be a all ROH topic, I was watching the first ROH show that I found in some discs I got and the homophobia in the Christopher Street Connection vs Da Hit Squad match was off the charts. Especially the commentary with Corino and the CZW guy. It was quite sickening actually.

#35 Mad Dog

Mad Dog
  • Members
  • 4705 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 07 July 2012 - 08:16 PM

I vaguely remember that. Corino was a fucking terrible announcer.

#36 cm funk

cm funk
  • Members
  • 1589 posts

Posted 07 July 2012 - 11:05 PM

In that Guest Booker shoot I referred to earlier Cornette is wearing one of those terrible Affliction shirts.


How does that rate compared to Cornette doing a shoot in a South Park shirt?

#37 Bix

Bix
  • DVDVR 80s Project
  • 6237 posts

Posted 07 July 2012 - 11:05 PM

I was watching WWC tv today and they had Davey Richards and Melina vs Velvet Sky and some WWC wrestler. It was amazing to watch Davey in this enviorment where he's not doing the Fake MMA thing and doing heel stooging. He even sold offense for Velvet. If Davey was more like that all the time, I'd enjoy watching him.


Also since this seems to be a all ROH topic, I was watching the first ROH show that I found in some discs I got and the homophobia in the Christopher Street Connection vs Da Hit Squad match was off the charts. Especially the commentary with Corino and the CZW guy. It was quite sickening actually.

It's even worse when you factor in that the CSC were working as babyfaces everywhere else basically doing a Gay Hit Squad gimmick. RF has...issues.

#38 NintendoLogic

NintendoLogic

    Grim and frostbitten

  • Members
  • 2661 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 08 July 2012 - 02:14 AM

Every promotion has been influenced by MMA in recent years.


Has the NFL been strongly influenced by MMA in recent years? The EPL?

John


Do you have a point?

#39 Log

Log
  • Members
  • 898 posts

Posted 08 July 2012 - 08:02 AM

I think someone else nailed it earlier in the thread. If you want to watch MMA, it's not really a problem finding it. It's everywhere right now. If you're tuning in to ROH, you probably want to watch pro wrestling.

#40 Jingus

Jingus
  • Members
  • 2583 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 08 July 2012 - 10:28 AM

It's even worse when you factor in that the CSC were working as babyfaces everywhere else basically doing a Gay Hit Squad gimmick. RF has...issues.

I will never stop being amused by the fact that the very first thing that happened on the very first show from the honor/workrate company was a sportz entertainment segment featuring two dudes making out.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users