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#41 FLIK

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 10:54 AM

from the honor/workrate company


I'm always amused ppl took this so literally.

It was only ever really just a marketing gimmick for them but ppl bought so much into the "pure sports wrestling" BS that they tended to ignore that the company always had feuds and angles and whacky characters and all the other "sports entertainment" gaga too.

#42 Mad Dog

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 11:53 AM

Christopher Daniels broke the "Code of Honor" on the very first show. So it was really just a gimmick.

#43 NintendoLogic

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 01:00 PM

I think someone else nailed it earlier in the thread. If you want to watch MMA, it's not really a problem finding it. It's everywhere right now. If you're tuning in to ROH, you probably want to watch pro wrestling.


Isn't this true of shoot style in general? I certainly think so, but not too many people here seem to agree.

#44 Dylan Waco

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 01:43 PM

Is what true of shoot style?

#45 El-P

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 01:51 PM

Edit.

#46 NintendoLogic

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 01:59 PM

Is what true of shoot style?


That there's no market for it now that the real thing is readily available.

#47 Loss

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 03:28 PM

Sure, but are there still promotions like UWFI, RINGS and PWFG? Or are you saying that modern eyes are going to have a tough time enjoying the old stuff? Just want to understand.

#48 Jingus

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 03:41 PM

Sure, but are there still promotions like UWFI, RINGS and PWFG?

No, and I think that's part of his point. Aside from the occasional Inoki exhibition show or Battlearts zombie tribute, even in Japan it's awfully tough to find shoot-style nowadays. And that's the only country where it's ever been remotely popular. ROH is stupid to do this faked shoot stuff. Real MMA fans can tell it's phony and resent the falseness, while wrestling fans usually find it a boring spectacle which abandons way too many of the things that make wrestling so fun. It's kinda the same thing as all those worked boxing matches we've had on shows throughout the years; there's been lots of them, but how many have been any good or drawn a single dime?

#49 Loss

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 03:43 PM

I'm not saying I disagree with this, but I am having trouble understanding the relevance of the question. Those promotions haven't been around for over a decade, long before MMA got popular. (Well, RINGS moved to shoots ...)

#50 Jingus

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 04:02 PM

Pretty sure NESLogic meant "isn't it probably true that worked-shoot style style has largely gone out of fashion, with practically no fans remaining, because real shoots are so incredibly easy to find nowadays"? You can almost mark a direct correlation between the popularity of the fake shoots and the current mainstream popularity of the real ones. And how many fans would pay to watch two guys pretend to have a fight if they're not running the ropes and working the crowd and doing a bunch of stuff besides fake-circling-each-other or fake-laying-in-the-guard?

#51 jdw

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 04:09 PM

Every promotion has been influenced by MMA in recent years.


Has the NFL been strongly influenced by MMA in recent years? The EPL?

John


Do you have a point?


MMA is a sport. If it's a sport of such great influence, you'd think the Big Boys of Sport would be influence by it... rather than say... Entertainment Companies.

John

#52 jdw

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 04:17 PM

Is what true of shoot style?


That there's no market for it now that the real thing is readily available.


There never was a market for it in the US.

No shoot style promotion has ever been successful in the US on a large scale, unless one wants to pretend that pro wrestling in the 30s or 20s was shoot style (even though it had been exposed as fake regularly by that point). In the TV era, it just hasn't been the case.

MMA really didn't matter. The majority of the country knew wrestling was fake. The majority of the non-kid fans who attended it knew it was fake, and just played along.

I agree with the earlier posters: if MMA fans want to watch MMA, they'll watch MMA rather than Fake MMA Pro Wrestling In ROH. There's so much free MMA on TV, along with loads of MMA PPV, that who would even care to seek out Fake MMA. It's just delusional nonsense of guys like Heyman and Cornette, who have probably been listening too much to Dave, to think Fake MMA Influenced Pro Wrestling is going to draw big. Christ... MMA is having it's issues drawing right now.

#53 Bix

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 06:07 PM

I presume you're considering the first UWFI Shootwrestling PPV an anomaly (it did one of the best non-big 2 wrestling PPV numbers ever, IIRC) because it was a fluke (huge ad budget that was subsequently dropped, different PPV landscape, etc) and the buys nosedived for shows two and three?

#54 Mad Dog

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 06:58 PM

What amazes me is how stubborn they are about letting guys have gimmicks and be entertaining. Why isn't Jay Lethal doing Black Machismo? He's a million times more interesting when he's doing that gimmick. Instead he's just doing a dull, kind of lifeless gimmick. It's a little thing but RoH is doing a lot of those little things that hurt them. Bringing in Colt Cabana and just letting Lethal do his gimmick would make their roster a lot more interesting and that's just two tiny little changes.

#55 NintendoLogic

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 10:12 PM

Every promotion has been influenced by MMA in recent years.


Has the NFL been strongly influenced by MMA in recent years? The EPL?

John


Do you have a point?


MMA is a sport. If it's a sport of such great influence, you'd think the Big Boys of Sport would be influence by it... rather than say... Entertainment Companies.

John


I was talking about professional wrestling promotions being influenced by MMA, not MMA's influence in general.

Anyway, I think the MMA in ROH thing is being overstated. It's not like Kevin Steen and the Briscoes are busting out rear naked chokes. It's coming from guys like Davey Richards and Kyle O'Reilly who are already marks for the stuff. That's also why I think blaming Cornette for it is a mistake.

#56 ohtani's jacket

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 05:44 AM

Pretty sure NESLogic meant "isn't it probably true that worked-shoot style style has largely gone out of fashion, with practically no fans remaining, because real shoots are so incredibly easy to find nowadays"? You can almost mark a direct correlation between the popularity of the fake shoots and the current mainstream popularity of the real ones. And how many fans would pay to watch two guys pretend to have a fight if they're not running the ropes and working the crowd and doing a bunch of stuff besides fake-circling-each-other or fake-laying-in-the-guard?


Don't quite see the correlation when MMA is pretty much dead in Japan well.

#57 El-P

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 08:38 AM

Pretty sure NESLogic meant "isn't it probably true that worked-shoot style style has largely gone out of fashion, with practically no fans remaining, because real shoots are so incredibly easy to find nowadays"? You can almost mark a direct correlation between the popularity of the fake shoots and the current mainstream popularity of the real ones. And how many fans would pay to watch two guys pretend to have a fight if they're not running the ropes and working the crowd and doing a bunch of stuff besides fake-circling-each-other or fake-laying-in-the-guard?


Don't quite see the correlation when MMA is pretty much dead in Japan well.


FWIW, in his shoot interview, Tajiri said he thinks MMA has nothing to do with wrestling popularity going down. To him pro-wrestling is down because the emphasis has been put on dangerous moves instead of showcasing strong characters.

#58 jdw

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 12:05 PM

I presume you're considering the first UWFI Shootwrestling PPV an anomaly (it did one of the best non-big 2 wrestling PPV numbers ever, IIRC) because it was a fluke (huge ad budget that was subsequently dropped, different PPV landscape, etc) and the buys nosedived for shows two and three?


It was total fluke.

John

#59 Coffey

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 12:06 PM

40 minute self-aware "epics" with the killing of both near falls and moves has more to do with ROH being a bucket of suck than the faux MMA does, IMO. I don't wanna see Steen doing Suplerplexes onto guard rails either.

#60 jdw

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 12:08 PM

I was talking about professional wrestling promotions being influenced by MMA, not MMA's influence in general.


I know. And my point earlier on Cornette and Heyman being influenced by MMA being funny is that... it's funny and stupid.

John




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