Migs Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 I'm so torn on this match because I think if you took the stipulation away and had the exact same match it becomes an all-time classic. The stiffness was just unheard of for the WWF at that time and if you put counts to those aborted pin attempts you would have had some tremendous drama. Work the early bits around the heartbreaker and the hammer jammer (which I loved as a gimmick/counter gimmick), have them both removed as was done which leads to Garvin selling the shit out of the regular figure-four when it was applied and finish with the scorpion deathlock as a way for Garvin to show to Valentine that he has a submission move of his own that can work just as well. That works damn fine as a match structure without the "submission match" stip being tacked on to it. As it is, even rewatching it last night I grew frustrated by all the pin attempts. The first one each was fine to me, because WWF in that era didn't really do "stip" matches outside of cages (where it's hard to forget the rules since the cage itself is a constant reminder) and lumberjack matches (which don't really affect the method of victory) so it made sense that both the wrestlers and the audience wouldn't be super prepped for the no-pinfall thing. But to keep going back to it bothered me quite a bit. On top of that, they didn't really work the submission aspect outside of four moments: the original figure-four with the braces in tact, Valentine's torture rack attempt, the figure-four sans braces, and the deathlock finish. There wasn't really an effort made by either guy to set up submissions during the body of the match. In a straight match, I don't think it's always necessary to work an area to set up a submission, since the move itself can often be painful enough. But if that is the only way to win, why would you waste so much energy with such vicious chops and punches when those aren't going to lead directly to the desired outcome? Yes, you could argue that they're wearing each other down to make them susceptible to a submission later, but that can be said of ANY match. Its the reason things like headlocks and chinlocks are acceptable in the early stages of the match. But if you're going to add a specific stip (especially at a time when that wasn't a major part of your booking), shouldn't the guys go all out on that aspect of the match? So in the end, I love this match because of the brutality of it and the gaga surrounding the braces working for me, but I'm disappointed a bit in the manner the approached telling the story of the stipulation. ***1/2 that would have been over **** if they'd dumped the stip and worked it as a regular match where each guy was determined to win by submission as opposed to being required to. Absolutely agree - without the stip it's a really fun match, but as a "submission" match I found it pretty strange and the pinfalls made both guys seem dumb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judy Bagwell Posted November 26, 2015 Report Share Posted November 26, 2015 awesome match one of my childhood favorites. Valentines tree falling in the woods selling is incredible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyonthewall2983 Posted December 7, 2015 Report Share Posted December 7, 2015 On top of the pinfall attempts, it's distracting to me when the ref lays the count on someone to let go of the ropes. I would assume that in a submission match, you can't get disqualified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 Pinfall attempts are sooooooooo dumb and to the detriment of the match flow. Especially after the first few. No excuse for that many in a submission match, even if WWF figured their fans were dumb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKWebb Posted November 21, 2016 Report Share Posted November 21, 2016 The only way this match can end is submission. This is worked super stiff. They really unload on each other. Ventura says that he's glad he's retired so he doesn't have feel shots like that anymore. Jimmy Hart has to keep reminding them it's a submission match. The first couple of pinfall attempts didn't really bother me, because they explained it well. But, to keep going for it seems kind of dumb. Not as dumb as the faces Garvin was making at Valentine during the figure four. What a goof. I agree that probably does speak to his intelligence level, This was really fun as far as in-ring action itself, it was a war, but some of the goofier aspects of the match keep me from calling it great. I still really enjoyed it. #461 - placetobenation.com/countdown-top-500-matches-of-the-90s-500-451/2/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted November 25, 2016 Report Share Posted November 25, 2016 #461 -- My takeaway from this is that there was a kernel of a really great Valentine vs. Garvin NWA bout in this amid all the goofy WWF bullshit and that kernel was stiff enough and hard-hitting enough to counter the missteps down the stretch like the repeated pin attempts or the face Garvin made. Most of all I love how this feud made the Hammer relevant again albeit for a short time. Valentine dropped the elbow on that phasing down. I wanna watch the rest of the matches in their series now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted November 28, 2016 Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 I went back and watched as much of this feud as I could find. The TV angle with the retirement match, the referee gig and the reinstatement brought back a lot of childhood memories. I was super into the WWF in 1989 and it's interesting that when you're a kid you're into all the angles and everything that's going on in the promotion (at least I was), especially when you're living all the way over on the other side of the world and following wrestling through Superstars, the TV Guide, the WWF magazine, PPVs that were months behind, and your local tabloid newspaper. I adsorbed it all like a sponge back then. Even watching Valentine and the Colonel Jimmy Hart appear on the Brother Love show brought back fond memories of how excited I would be to see any sort of confrontation on the Brother Love show and how long you'd have to wait at times for the wrestler to come out. Some of those segments seemed to drag on forever. Anyway, I watched quite a few of the Valentine/Garvin house show bouts: MSG 12/30/88 Boston Garden 1/13/89 Philadelphia Spectrum 1/14/89 MSG 9/30/89 Maple Leaf Gardens 10/18/89 They're all good matches but the one to watch, and I believe it made the old DVDVR WWF set, is the September '89 Madison Square Garden bout. That's an incredible fight with some of the stiffest work ever seen in a WWF ring. Structurally, it's similar to a Flair vs. Garvin house show bout and what makes it stand out from the others is that not only is it more brutal but just when you think it's over it goes on for another beat and there's even more stiff action to enjoy. Really great bout. Check it out if you enjoyed the submission match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKWebb Posted November 28, 2016 Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 Awesome, that's great info - I'll be checking that out soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrestlingchick Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 A much better match than I was expecting here. Ronnie Garvin is one of the guys from this era that I just never have been able to enjoy, but this was a stiff war that I really enjoyed. I liked the added touch of the shin guard being used as a means to counter the figure four, a manoeuvre applied by both men. Obviously the submission stipulation took a bit to get used to for the guys working the match as they both went for pinfalls early on, however Jesse was able to cover for them on commentary. It made sense for Garvin to get the win here after being forced to "retire" by Valentine months prior, but did he stick around at all after this? I guess they didn't have a huge amount planned for Valentine for the next few months either, so its not like a loss really hurts him here. Grade: *** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawho5 Posted January 29, 2017 Report Share Posted January 29, 2017 I liked this a lot. The pinfall attempts take away from it for sure. But it is a hyper-intense war with both guys beating each other senseless, so maybe that explains the pins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stiva Posted July 21, 2017 Report Share Posted July 21, 2017 Great match. I love the start with both guys chucking hard rights and laying bombs to try and knock each other senseless and as far as the pin falls go, I see two explanations at different times. Early on, it's the WWF doing what they always do and hammer a point home to over-explain things and later in the match, the pinfalls are, as Tony says, a way of using their wrestling knowledge to get out of holds and give themselves some space. The later portions revolving around removing the braces have a nice escalation and, in the end, the heel's hubris comes back to haunt him as he eats the brace and submits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calvin Posted April 8, 2023 Report Share Posted April 8, 2023 It's a territory match on a big-4 WWF PPV, and while there's some goofy bullshit that needs to be sifted through, the match itself is a slugfest at heart dressed up as a submission match. I thought the constant pinfalls were more comical than detrimental, but I understand if people think it hurt the flow of the match. This probably is looked at more fondly if it were just a regular match without the stip. ***1/4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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