Posted 02 November 2012 - 01:44 PM
Posted 02 November 2012 - 01:48 PM
Posted 02 November 2012 - 01:59 PM
Posted 02 November 2012 - 10:15 PM
Posted 02 November 2012 - 10:40 PM
Posted 03 November 2012 - 10:13 AM
Even his WCW stints when he was way past his prime in the 90's I find enjoyable. Big time Greg Valentine fan.
Yeah, he was still good up until the late 90's atleast. He did a random tour for Battlarts in 98 and had a fun match vs Hisakatsu Oya
Posted 03 November 2012 - 11:55 AM
I think Valentine is one of the most underrated all around performers in the history of wrestling. I was going to work on him after The High Flyers and still plan to, but I've had to go back to Patera because I really want to push him for the WON HoF ballot. I'll get to him eventually unless someone beats me to it and I think people are going to be surprised to see how successful and talented a wrestler he was. I'd rate the Tito feud as one of the best feuds of the 80's, I love the Garvin matches, the Piper Dog Collar match, the available match v. Wahoo, and the Backlund matches. In fact the Backlund draw from 79 is one of the most underrated matches ever and one of the best broadways I've ever seen. He was a good tag worker too, with the Dream Team being solid and his team with Flair has always had a good rep as well. I actually think he was a consistently good worker through 89 where he not only had the series with Garvin, but also good tv matches v. both Bret and Owen (I actually LOVE the Owen match and think it's one of the more underrated tv matches of the year).
I think Greg is hurt in the historical memory of wrestling fans for a lot of reasons. One is the fact that his dad was an iconic wrestler and he was never going to be able to completely live up to that image. Another is the fact that he was never THE guy, nor am I positive that you could point to any extended period where he was even THE top heel anywhere. There is also the fact that he had the workman's look and while he was extremely good in the ring he always came across as a rugged - almost dated looking - wrestler.
But historically there are interesting things about Greg that people forget. IIRC it was him and Flair v. The Andersons that drew the first sell out in Greensboro in ages. The Wahoo and Piper feuds are both generally believed to have done very good business. He was brought in to work Backlund several times over a five or six year stretch, which suggests that he was seen as an opponent that could work and draw against Bob. The Tito feud is incredibly great in the ring and actually did well at the box office when given the chance (particularly for a feud that would have been considered "mid-card" in the eyes of many casual fans by that point). He is the only person ever to win the PWI Most Hated Award three times (and was a runner up in 1980), which is actually a good indicator of how over he was at the time.
Even a cursory overview shows that Valentine was one of the biggest heels in wrestling from 75-85 and he had some worth to his promotions on the front and back end of that. I also personally believe he's no worse than one of the hundred best workers of all time and don't think it's out of the question to think about him as a top fifty guy. There's a lot more to say about thread and when I get around to looking at his career results I'll use this thread.
I was hoping Dylan would take the bait and write a Valentine dissertation or give him the Patera treatment. I got the dissertation and it sounds like the Patera treatment is forthcoming.
Looking forward to it.
Posted 03 November 2012 - 11:56 AM
Posted 03 November 2012 - 05:59 PM
This thread won't really get going for the first 15 posts.
Posted 03 November 2012 - 06:24 PM
Posted 04 November 2012 - 05:34 PM
Posted 05 November 2012 - 12:22 AM
Posted 05 November 2012 - 12:31 AM
Posted 05 November 2012 - 01:25 AM
Posted 05 November 2012 - 06:52 AM
Posted 05 November 2012 - 09:24 AM
Posted 05 November 2012 - 06:49 PM
Does any footage exist of his mid-70's New Japan tours?
I think the only thing that exists is the 12/04/79 Fujinami vs. Valentine match.
A number of other matches were identified by Dan G as being on Raijin's wonderful list, Raijin went off the grid before Dan was able to get everything.
Posted 05 November 2012 - 07:02 PM
Posted 05 November 2012 - 08:35 PM
Posted 06 November 2012 - 04:21 PM
When saying that, I don't think he was as lazy as Muraco, who probably was even more talented and charismatic than Greg... but just a stunningly lazy fuck in way too many (as in the Majority) of his matches.
But I also think the 1979 rematch with Backlund is an example of Greg not being engaged, especially if watched with the prior draw in mind. I happened to watch the rematch years before the draw came out, and was rather stunned by how mediocre it was. In the context of watching a lot of Backlund matches, seeing how he worked when matches were good, and how things went when they weren't, you did get the feel that it was on Greg. Similar to a couple of Backlund-Patterson matches that I saw before a "good one" finally washed up: Pat wasn't working very hard, and attempts by Backlund to do stuff that worked against others tended to run into a brick wall of Pat wanting to lay around. It's been a while since I've watched the Bob-Greg rematch, so it's not pefectly in my mind and I also don't have a write up of it to refresh myself with. In my mind, it was less shitty than the mediocre iterations of Bob-Pat matches, and instead was "wildly disappointing" because I expected more out of the two. In turn, the draw hit those expectations... and then ran a lap or two around them.
There were Greg matches in the 80s after the tag title run that were like that. I wonder if he got that his major push was over, he wasn't doing anything that interested him but the money was okay, so he was just getting by in his matches. The problem for *me* as someone trying to get my head around Greg is *that* is the Greg that I cut my teeth on. That image of 1986-91 Greg is the one in my head because he's the one I saw so many matches of on places like PrimeTime and some house show matches. In turn, I could contrast him with the JCP guys... and he really wasn't at their level.
That's a *bias* on my part, and also a part of his career that is over influential in my brain when forming an opinion on him.
Two things soften that:
* I generally appreciate 80s WWF, and some 80s WWF workers, more now when sifting through it than back in the 80s
Tito is an example... okay, a bad one since I didn't hate him in the 80s, just didn't pay much attention to his solid work. Better example is Hogan: I hated his stuff in the 80s, but now find a fair amount of that perfectly watchable.
So watching more Greg may play into the fact that I'm more open to WWF 80s now than in the 80s.
* I have seen some 80s Greg that I like a good deal
Those Backlund matches. It's always a big positive when a worker has matches that are good not only in the context of a single 6-12 month feud, but that he focused enough to do it again 2+ years later... and then focused again to do it again 2+ years after that. 02/79, 11/81, 04/84... that to me is a good sign. Sure, they're comfortable with each other. But the last is five years after the first, a lot has changed since then, and the two put on a damn fine match at the dawn of Hulkamania that the MSG crowd like. That's a positive, not just for Bob but also very much for Greg.
The Tito series is real good.
The Tito & Steamer vs Greg & Beefcake is *damn* good, and it's largely Greg for the heels not only as a worker but also as the ring general guiding things for Beefcake.
I'm less high on the more noted of the Garvin matches than just about everyone else, but I'm also not much of the "He punched him in the MOTHERFUCKING nose!" or "This was a fucking WAR!" type of fan, and instead thought that is was a gigantic mess stupid work:
So I'm sure that with more watching of Greg in the WWF, I'll like stumble across something like the Toronto Tag the surprises me for how good it is. I'll also likely come across some stuff where Greg strikes me as going through the motions in matches.
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