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#21 Dylan Waco

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 05:02 PM

Did you review the Steamboat singles match from the first WWF Set John? I have read through all of those posts before but it's been a long time. I ask because I really liked that match.

#22 Matt D

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:05 AM

It's so weird to me that they put Albano with him in 84.

#23 Ricky Jackson

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 11:34 AM

I'm thinking he would have been paired up with the Grand Wizard again if he was still alive in 84. Albano was just a substitute choice I guess. Blassie seemed to be only managing foreign heels, and Piper managing him would have maybe been considered too illogical considering their feud in 83, even though it happened for Crockett (and yes I know their feud was acknowledged on a Piper's Pit and they "buried the hatchet").

#24 JerryvonKramer

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 11:40 AM

Blassie was acutally just managing Sheik in 84, until Volkoff came in.

#25 JerryvonKramer

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 11:42 AM

Also, was Valentine in the Dream Team by 84? If so, a major part of Albano's character was as a manager of tag teams, so from that point of view it would have made sense.

#26 Matt D

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 11:50 AM

Dream Team came together in summer 85, no?

#27 Al

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 11:54 AM

Also, was Valentine in the Dream Team by 84? If so, a major part of Albano's character was as a manager of tag teams, so from that point of view it would have made sense.

Valentine and Beefcake first teamed in January '85, though it appears to be more of a thrown together tag than a steady feud. Beefcake was already being managed by Johnny Valiant then. In February of '85, Valentine picked up Jimmy Hart as a manager. Valentine and Beefcake started teaming regularly shortly after Wrestlemania, with Hart managing Valentine and Valiant managing Beefcake (hence "Dream Team"). At some point Hart was dropped from the group.

Couldn't help but notice this result while looking through Graham's site:

WWF IC Champion Greg Valentine (w/ Jimmy Hart) defeated Jim Londos via submission with the figure-4

A jobber named Jim Londos? That's some chutzpa.

#28 Matt D

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 12:08 PM

85 WWF is something of a blind spot for me. Valentine still had the IC belt into July, right?

#29 King Solomon

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 12:21 PM

85 WWF is something of a blind spot for me. Valentine still had the IC belt into July, right?



yes he did, lost it to Tito in Baltimore that month

#30 JaymeFuture

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 01:44 PM

A lot of what works against Valentine's case as a HoFer I think is the fact that throughout a lot of his finer work and greater prominence, even at his peak it never felt like he was absolutely critical to a territory or a guy that was ever going to be any kind of cornerstone. In many ways he always felt like the quintessential guy to cast as a mechanic.

#31 goodhelmet

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 04:51 PM

Since Loss created the Microscope, I have gone back and read some of the old threads. Valentine is a guy who may be part of the greatest in-ring feud with Santana. If I could come up with a disc or 2 of his pre-WWF stuff, I would consider doing a Valentine set.

On the first WWF set, Valentine really got the shaft. Only two matches appeared...
Greg Valentine vs Ricky Steamboat (6/21/85 MSG)
Greg Valentine vs Ron Garvin (9/30/89 MSG)


Comments about Valentine from the new WWF 80s set nominations...


Bob Backlund vs. Greg Valentine (11/23/81)
Holy shit, Backlund attacks Valentine before the match and hits him with the belt. No holds barred! Bob is fucking Greg up. Smart work early when Greg misses a knee charge to the corner, Bob works the legs. Nothing wrong with that. Greg tries to fight back but Bob just kicks his leg and he drops. Bob even goes for a figure-4 but Greg pulls him down and turns the tide. Even after turning the tide, Greg still selling the leg. As of this moment, not really a No Holds Barred match even though it was teased as such early on. Really smart match but not extremely violent. Just as I say that, Greg gets to wrap Bob's leg around the ringpost several times. Bob escapes the figure-4 a couple of times but Greg finally gets it on and I am liking the leg work in the match. Eventually, Bob catches Greg with his deadlift German for the pin. Not a great No Holds Barred match but a great wrestling match. I have to check Cawthon's site and see if this was a regular match or No DQ. If it was no holds barred, merely solid. If it was just a match, this was really an easy nomination.


Greg Valentine vs. Tito Santana (MSG 6/16/84)
My favorite part was Greg just killing Tito in the corner with every move in his arsenal. I didn't think it had the really nasty moment to be called an all time great but I have no objection with this moving forward. So far, between this feud and Piper-Orndorff, I don't know which is my favorite feud discovery. Solid Nomination.


Hulk Hogan vs. Greg Valentine (MSG 7/23/84)
The actual date on this is 7/23/84. Valentine and Hogan are interviewed pre-match. Valentine cuts a normal promo but Hulk says something about calling the electric company in NYC to turn the power off because the Hulkamaniacs will be making the city explode or something. This was pretty good. Valentine went after Hulk immediately following the ring announcements. Hulk fought back and threw some awesome punches and whipped Valentine into the turnbuckle aggressively who bumped great for it. Hulk got on a side head lock but got back suplexed and The Hammer pounded on him for a few minutes with some stiff clubs. This heat segment didn't do anything for me. They went to the floor and brawled so the match slowly got better. Hulk reversed a suplex attempt into his own and followed that up with a shoulder breaker and a fucking brutal big boot that connected with Valentine's face. Valentine found an opportunity to work on Hulk's leg after a Hogan mistake and worked on it briefly. He attempted the figure four but Hulk countered on both tries. There was a pretty good sleeper spot with Hulk fighting out of it. Valentine made his second heat segment more varied and compelling than the first. The Hammer went for a move from the top rope but caught a huge clothesline that looked sick from the camera angle. Hulk executed the leg drop in a bizarre but actually cool way to grab the win. There were parts in this that didn't sit well with me but there was some great brawling and fun spots. I could see this on a set and someone else possibly liking this more.


Greg Valentine vs. Jose Luis Rivera (MSG 9/22/84)
EXPOSER: The actual date on this is 9/22/84. Wow, this was good. Rivera went after Valentine before The Hammer could even get his robe off. He sent Valentine to the floor who was eventually able to take his robe off. Valentine came back in and took control. He worked on Rivera's midsection and did a lot of cool stuff. He gave him a gut buster, vertical suplex on to the top rope, stood on his stomach, stomped him really hard, and really pounded on him for a good while. Also, he gave him a shoulder breaker and did a really painful looking wrist lock hold. Rivera kept fighting back in the corner with some nice punches and got in a few body slams. In his last effort to come back he and The Hammer got into this really intense fist fight in the corner which ruled. Valentine won the fight and gave him a snap under hook suplex then applied the figure four for the win. He re-applied it after the match and other wrestlers came to the aid of Rivera after The Hammer left. I really enjoyed this and thought it was a very good JTTS match.


Greg Valentine vs. Tito Santana (MSG 10/22/84)
This was fucking awesome. If I were to compare this to the Regal-Larry Z feud, this was equivalent to the Pro match. Non-stop violent sprint with Tito busting Greg open and giving some VIOLENT, SICK forearms to Greg's nose. The DQ does not bother me at all because the ending was so violent. EASY NOMINATION


Greg Valentine vs. Tito Santana (Boston 1/5/85)
DYLAN WACO: Tremendously great match, to the point where I could see this as someones number one. Tito is just so great at these sort of hard hitting, hate filled fights and that is also Valentine's bread and butter. Still this was on a whole nother level. Both guys were just crushing each other with forearms, punches, et all match. Greg's leg work was simple for the most part, but extremely effective. The spot with him going for a cover and laying all of his weight on Tito's leg was fucking awesome. Tito hit one great flying forearm early on which Greg was able to survive. This match has such a great ebb and flow and both guys were selling the fuck out of exhaustion/getting their asses kicked, but in a way that allowed them to come up for big spots. Devon is right about the Valentine headbutt. Totally vicious shot that looked like it killed Tito. The finish was also really great as there were several awesome bumps in this, but Valentine's tumble to the floor was the best and totally believable as a knockout blow, with the countout really well milked for maximum effect. This is no worse than a top ten match. Probably top five.


Greg Valentine vs. Tito Santana (Lumberjack Match) (MSG 3/17/85)
The fucking Valentine forearms were sick. Tito's punches looked great. My favorite part was when they would just beat the shit out of each other in the slugfest portion. The lumberjacks served their purpose but this would have been every bit as good without them. I had to rewind the finish a couple of times before I realized they were both knocked out. Yeah, this ruled. EASY NOMINATION


Tito Santana vs. Greg Valentine (Cage Match) (Baltimore 7/6/85)
Great match, my favorite between the two so far. Stiff, violent and using the cage the way you should in an escape the cage rules match. I was telling Phil I love the way they just crumple to the ground with a leg dangling up in the air or half twisted when they land because it feels more real than he choreographed typical getting crotched on the rope or flat back bumps you see nowadays in nearly every cage match. Each time someone tried to escape the cage, it felt like the right way to stop the escape... Tito's palm strike to Greg's face, Tito holding on to Greg's tights for dear life, Greg punching the shit out of Tito. Add the blood (although there aren't any great camera angles of the blood), the awesome finish and Greg losing his shit in the post-match and this might be the best cage match the WWF produced in the 80s. EASIEST OF NOMINATIONS


Greg Valentine v. Dick Slater (1/3/87)
DYLAN WACO: Cool match that really locked me in in the last few minutes. Lots of neat stuff, but I was very impressed by Slater. I liked his jab, footrake, and jumping headbutt over the ref as much or more than anything Valentine did and that is high praise. Slater fighting off the figure-four was really well done as also. This was an escalating match that started off solid and by the time it was over it felt like you had watched something really good.


Greg Valentine v. Blue Blazer (4/22/89)
DYLAN WACO: I thought this was pretty great and safely the best thing I've watched so far tonight. Valentine is crazy underrated and Owen is Owen so I knew this had a chance but this overacheived. The opening armwork was fun but this didn't get super good until Owen took his speedy bump to the floor. From there they just work a great run of stuff centered around whether or not Owen can survive Hammer's clubbing style and whether or not Valentine can survive Owen's big offense. Loved the spot with Owen hitting a desperation second rope dropkick out of the corner and Valentine doing his delayed face plant bump. I also thought it was cool how Greg hung onto a bodyslam attempt and seemed to turn it into a backbreaker on a whim. The stuff with three escapes of the figure four was great and Owen's run of big offense all looked good leading up to the cool finish with him going to the well one too many times and Valentine laying on an awesome looking cover after the slam for the finish.


Greg Valentine v. Ronnie Garvin (10/8/89)
DYLAN WACO: One or two odd spots but other than that this was pretty god damned solid slugfest wrestling. Everytime you thought it met settle in a bit Ronnie who just fucking kill Greg with what looked (and sounded) like full force punches right to the face. I know some people don't like the Heartbreaker gimmick but I love it and thought the finish was a clever way of giving the fans a clean finish without making the face look weak. Typically awesome fight between two of the best "feels like a real fight" guys ever.

#32 JerryvonKramer

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:10 PM

This reminds me, I wanted to share a passage with you guys from that WWF Colesium book I got for Xmas, partly because it reminded me of this thread and partly to see what people make of it. This is by Bernard Rage:

Greg Valentine is one ignorant son of a bitch. He is a box with arms and legs in a blond wig, and I swear you could punch the man square in the face and unless a family member was around to tell him it happened, he just wouldn't know. Gorilla Monsoon once said that he had such a low centre of gravity, that he was hard to knock off his feet. That's a knowledgeable commentator telling you that this lump of a man has no interest in selling this shit. Valentine was trained by Stu Hart, and adopted a lot of his old-school style. Again, that's a polite way of saying that he was a stiff bastard who moved like an old man. Some how, and I don't really get it, this uncharismatic, stocky, immobile, grouchy lump of a man managed to work for promoters like Jim Crockett Jr., Antonio Inoki and both Vince McMahons. He's tagged with and fought Flair, fedued with Pedro Morales and Don Muraco, and held more belts than he's cracked smiles. That's to his credit also. But if you watch a Valentine match, you'll realise he rarely sells, looks bored, and makes stiff work look dull. He shouldn't have been as successful as he was. But there are two reasons why I'm a fan of "The Hammer". He's got a reputation, worked I'm sure, of being a guy who injures others. Nothing unusual about that, it's a common gimmick. Old Greg however, found ways to make it amusing. After an incident with a very popular Wahoo McDaniel, Greg took to wearing a t-shirt that said 'I broke Wahoo's leg' on the front, and (and this is the bit that delights me) 'No more Wahoo' on the back. What makes me chuckle here is that out of context, the wording on the back makes it sound like his wife isn't happy with him. But what's really funny is him slapping his trademark figure-four on Superstar Billy Graham. Not when Graham was a big strong, prototype of Hogan, oh no. When Graham was a beat-up old man recovering from a hip replacement. That is a heel, right there.


Thoughts?

#33 BrickHithouse

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:18 PM

Thoughts? It kind of pisses me off and would stop me from purchasing the book (which I was considering purchasing today). Is the whole book filled with shit like this? I don't mean to derail the Valentine thread to discuss this "author"...

#34 JerryvonKramer

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:24 PM

I also don't want to derail the thread, because I really want to unpack that and see what people disagree with as a means of better understanding what people think about Valentine, will answer in another thread.

#35 Dylan Waco

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:36 PM

Here is what I disagree with: Valentine didn't sell - bullshit lie or ignorant statement. Valentine sold fine and was actually very good at long term selling Valentine worked stiff but didn't do it in a way that made things look like they hurt - "is acid legal?" - Bill Parcels Valentine was trained by Stu Hart and got his working style from him - Comically stupid statement since he was clearly a clone of his dad and I don't recall Bret or Ben Basserab working like Greg Valentine Valentine shouldn't have been as successful as he was - At least he is acknowledging that Greg was very successful, but I think the reason he was so successful is precisely because he was a credible worker like his dad. I do agree that Greg wasn't oozing with charisma and he had a stodgy, slow moving look. At times he could grind a match to a halt, though I don't think he is even close to the worst guy from that era in that regard.

#36 JerryvonKramer

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:51 PM

On Valentine's influences, did he ever work with Johnny Valentine, because watching that Jack Brisco match the other night, I felt like I was watching a Greg Valentine match. So many of Valentine's mannerisms are basically exactly like Greg's. The deadpan face. His basic body shape. It was my immediate thought watching it that Greg got his entire act from Johnny.

#37 Grimmas

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 06:04 PM

Someone mentioned a Valentine-Anderson tag team and now I am furious that never happened. They would had been epic.

#38 ohtani's jacket

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 06:27 PM

Thoughts?


Why buy a book that reads like a series of message board posts and bad news site reviews?

#39 Exposer

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 08:47 PM

I may never read that book. From what I've seen so far in the WWF 80's re-watch Valentine is somebody who comes out looking even better than originally thought. And that Tito feud is so fucking great. One of my ten favorite feuds ever.

#40 shoe

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 08:58 PM

His feud with Tito is fantastic. I've always liked his hr. draw with Backlund. Actually I've liked a lot of his career . Now Will if you do make a Valentine comp I'm sure their are 2 discs worth of pre WWF Valentine to put on. I mean their are the 2 Flair matches. One from classics the other the handheld. Their are some of the garbage tapes, the Wahoo match, the Piper Starcade match and build. I always loved the promo he did with Sarge and Kernodle tearing Younbloods headdress while reading the little kids letter. You could cover the Flair-Valentine breakup. These are some stuff that I know is out there




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