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#41 PeteF3

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 11:06 PM

On Valentine's influences, did he ever work with Johnny Valentine, because watching that Jack Brisco match the other night, I felt like I was watching a Greg Valentine match. So many of Valentine's mannerisms are basically exactly like Greg's. The deadpan face. His basic body shape. It was my immediate thought watching it that Greg got his entire act from Johnny.


Yes, they teamed up at the beginning of Greg's career. Fun note: so as not to make Johnny out to be too old, they were initially billed as the Valentine Brothers.

#42 WingedEagle

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 08:09 AM

Valentine is one guy I simply haven't seen much of. I remember his late run in WWF with feuds vs. Beefcake and then the HTM team as I was growing up, but really have no exposure to his early work. Reading up on him this morning makes it clear that needs to change.

#43 Dylan Waco

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 08:38 AM

Was looking for something totally unrelated today and found this Carlos Colon v. Greg Valentine Cage Match from 1991



First five minutes or so is missing which is too bad because this is really good. Escape the cage rules but they make the most out of things and I thought the way both guys cut off the other worked well. Both guys bleed, Valentine takes some great bumps, and the match has a good flow to it. I also thought the finish was really clever. This was Valentine past his prime, but it's hard to imagine anyone having a better match with Colon in 91.

#44 El-P

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 09:47 AM

I have shitloads of WWC waiting somewhere, one of these days, one of these days... it's stuff like this that gives me the urge....

#45 tomk

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 02:58 PM

Was looking for something totally unrelated today and found this Carlos Colon v. Greg Valentine Cage Match from 1991



First five minutes or so is missing which is too bad because this is really good. Escape the cage rules but they make the most out of things and I thought the way both guys cut off the other worked well. Both guys bleed, Valentine takes some great bumps, and the match has a good flow to it. I also thought the finish was really clever. This was Valentine past his prime, but it's hard to imagine anyone having a better match with Colon in 91.


Not to get sidedrained into discussion of Puerto Rico but this is what I wrote when folks were soliciting matches for 91 set:

I haven't been a tape trader in years but it used to be really hard to get a hold of 90s Puerto Rico with the exception of Eddie Gilbert booked period in 94/95 (which is lots of him pushing Glen Jacobs and Tom Burton) and 91.

For some reason a bunch of 91 was easily available including stuff that got commercial releases. WWC brought in a nice group of brawling wrestlers from the continental US that year ( Ronnie Garvin, Greg Valentine, Dick Murdoch, Dick Slater, Manny Fernandez, Texas Hangmen and the SST) which may have resulted in more tape trader interest (or maybe they just had more money for talent and putting out commercial tapes that year). Who knows?


Stuff that I think would be worth going on a 91 set.

-Dick Murdoch v Wahoo: It's Dick Murdoch and Wahoo running through their spots together

-The Texas Hangmen v Invader/Bronco series: Hot tag series.

-Murdoch/Slater v Invader/Colon-Hardliners v Invader/Colon

-Abby v Carlos Colon (also the angle that sets it up where Abby attacks Colon in the shower...at one point guys getting attacked in shower in Puerto Rico was considered "tasteless" by continental Us tape traders). Two 50 year old men stabbing each other as they wander around a stadium. Really has the chaotic feel of two fifty year old men getting in a fight stabbing each other around a stadium.

-Miguel Perrez Jr v Hurican Castillo Jr dog collar match. Nice contrast to last match as two athletic thirty year old guys working a grizzly brawl around a basketball court chained together by the neck.

-Ronnie Garvin v Invader form the Anniversario show: Ronnie Garvin returns to Puerto Rico, and I can watch Garvin build a match around stretching and stiffing an opponent all day. No blood but it's Ronnie Garvin so this may in fact feel like the grizzliest of all these matches.

About two years ago awesome Midsouth jobber Gustavo Mendoza started putting up his matches from Puerto Rico on youtube. I don't know if there is a way to put the tag title against the SuperMedics on to disc, but it is just a fun very basic tag construction. I think it would be earliest match and it's important with the Puerto Rican stuff to give a sense that this is style that isn't built on grizzly brawls so much as it is built on really old school simple construction where any minute things can go awry and all hell will break loose.


I think you can find alot of that on various webvideo sites (dailymotion, youtube, facebook video, etc.) I prefer Invader to Colon at this point and so mostly reccomended matches with him v outsider brawlers, but sure you can find Colon v same cast to compare to Valentine match.

#46 jdw

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 06:33 PM

Bob Backlund vs. Greg Valentine (11/23/81)
Holy shit, Backlund attacks Valentine before the match and hits him with the belt. No holds barred! Bob is fucking Greg up. Smart work early when Greg misses a knee charge to the corner, Bob works the legs. Nothing wrong with that. Greg tries to fight back but Bob just kicks his leg and he drops. Bob even goes for a figure-4 but Greg pulls him down and turns the tide. Even after turning the tide, Greg still selling the leg. As of this moment, not really a No Holds Barred match even though it was teased as such early on. Really smart match but not extremely violent. Just as I say that, Greg gets to wrap Bob's leg around the ringpost several times. Bob escapes the figure-4 a couple of times but Greg finally gets it on and I am liking the leg work in the match. Eventually, Bob catches Greg with his deadlift German for the pin. Not a great No Holds Barred match but a great wrestling match. I have to check Cawthon's site and see if this was a regular match or No DQ. If it was no holds barred, merely solid. If it was just a match, this was really an easy nomination.


It's a Texas Death Match, which is essentially No Holds Barred / No DQ with the title held up in an MSG-only angle, hence the pop at the end and Bob (and the crowd) looking as close to a title winning look as you saw in this period.

A lot of the TDM were like this: they'd do spots to get across the concept, but it would then force them into working a match. The point didn't seem to be to escalate the violence from start to finish, but to eliminate the screwiness that caused the prior match to go off the rails.

In this case, they did their early spots, and then got down to destroying each other's legs... which was a whole selling point of Greg in the feud(s). It's a damn good match.

John

#47 jdw

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 06:41 PM

Did you review the Steamboat singles match from the first WWF Set John? I have read through all of those posts before but it's been a long time. I ask because I really liked that match.


Didn't see this question earlier, Dylan.

Here:

Match #41 - 06/21/85 Greg Valentine vs Ricky Steamboat (14:20)
Taped: Madison Square Garden, New York
Aired: 06/21/85 MSG Network

Lots of Kung Fu Steamer early, which really isn't the best side of Ricky. Watching Ricky using sumo-style slaps to the chest isn't any better. I do like him using the neck snapper, which is just a throwaway highspot for him rather than 90% of the offense that Curt Hennig brings to the table in a certain match... but I digress. ;)

Ricky dominates the first seven minutes, and mixed around some decent spots and sequences that pick the match up. There is a lot of stuff that's either boring or down right bad. I tend to blame most of it on the Kunf Fu nonsense since that's at the heart of much that's off. This just doesn't have the solid early base that Steamer-Bret did, where Ricky put aside a kung fu-centric work and instead controlled early working to his strengths.

Valentine in control starts great in playing off the transition spot: getting the knees up on a Steamer splash attempt. The knee drops to the gut are a sharp move, and the gutbuster had a nice feel to it. Dropping the hammer forearm to the throat for a nearfall comes across less as losing the tangent and instead simply taking an opportunity for a pin attempt because of how Valentine follows: a headbutt to the gut. Greg gives a sense of "taking what's there" as when Steamer sits up to sell the headbutt, Hammer gives him a nice brainbuster elbow right to the skull. When Steamer flops his back down on the mat, Hammer grabs the leg, ponders the figure four, seems to ponder the elbow to the leg to set up the figure four, but instead sees Steamer's wide open gut that he's been working over and drops a chunky elbow to it.

At this point, Greg could veer off from the stomach and bring the big guns and the figure four for all I care. He brought a more focused attack on a damaged body part here than The Brothers did in their entire match against the Rockers.

After a pin attempt off the elbow drop, almost as a feeler to see how much he's taken out of Steamer, Hammer does switch to working over the leg. In the end, unless Greg suddenly learns how to use The Claw, there's only so far he can go with the stomach. If they're going 30 minutes, then whip out the Ab-Stetch and other stuff. But they're not going 30 - they're going half that. Again, it has a nice "taking what's there" vibe. Ricky hurt the stomach after eating it on the splash attempt. It was there to attack for Greg, and he did. After the pin attempt Ricky was still on the mat at his mercy. When grabbing the knee rather than using the headbutt and elbow drop to the stomach previously, the hamstrings are wide open for some knee drives. It's there, it's open, it sets up his finisher, take it.

Nice tease of the figure four with Ricky grabbing a handful of blond hair for a small package to counter it. Ricky tries a little comeback, but Hammer gets a pretty theatrical counter press (Ricky makes it great by kicking his legs way up in the air), and then Hammer cuts him off with a nice punch to the gut then sends Ricky bumping to the floor.

The match half goes off the rails at the point. Other than a very nice brainbuster elbow that Ricky sells strongly, most of the time Ricky is out of the ring grinds the match to a halt rather than builds drama. He ends up wandering around the ring in a semi-zombie mode that reads better than it is on the screen. He fires himself up on the floor, and then the match resets with some major clubber-fu. *That* is well done as they go back and forth, but the point from Ricky going out until then isn't so hot in a match that's clocking in at less than 15 minutes.

As seen in the review of the first Backlund-Sarge match in Philly, I'm not adverse to a "face out on the floor and out of it" sequence, even if it takes a while to work through it. This one just didn't work until Ricky smacked the apron to show he was fired up.

The dualing fists-o-fury, which of course Ricky was going to win, was quite good. Greg really sells the shit out each of Ricky's strikes without bumping. It's pretty decent from there to the end, though they don't bring a lot of big guns. Ricky uses the press and a load of chop-fu for pin attempts, while Greg has a very nice backdrop suplex and some of his favorite elbow drops for pin attempts. The last tease of the figure four has a "take it home" feel rather than a dramatic feel, and it is take it home as they go right to the count out.

This is perhaps a third of a really strong match. The third being Greg's controlling section and the firery comeback up to Greg actually being counted out. Ricky's controlling section badly needs a re-write to moderate the Kung Fu shit. Then to be a really strong match, it needed to have Greg get back in the ring rather than be counted out, with them going another three or so minutes of near falls and actually have a finish. Both had more in the holster.

It's sort of worth watching. It's not the match one would hope for based on some of their other work in the WWF, and even together in the tag match. It starts off choppy, hits road bump late, then ends a bit too quickly and poorly. I wanted to like this a lot more, which is pretty evident by the pleasure I took from Greg's work while in control. But as a whole it just doesn't get there. Which is especially disappointing since this seems to waste a night when Greg was both game and focused on his work. The Toronto tag was a night where they delivered.

I'd like to see their Toronto singles match in 1985 if it exists.

John

#48 goodhelmet

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 07:00 PM

Bob Backlund vs. Greg Valentine (11/23/81)
Holy shit, Backlund attacks Valentine before the match and hits him with the belt. No holds barred! Bob is fucking Greg up. Smart work early when Greg misses a knee charge to the corner, Bob works the legs. Nothing wrong with that. Greg tries to fight back but Bob just kicks his leg and he drops. Bob even goes for a figure-4 but Greg pulls him down and turns the tide. Even after turning the tide, Greg still selling the leg. As of this moment, not really a No Holds Barred match even though it was teased as such early on. Really smart match but not extremely violent. Just as I say that, Greg gets to wrap Bob's leg around the ringpost several times. Bob escapes the figure-4 a couple of times but Greg finally gets it on and I am liking the leg work in the match. Eventually, Bob catches Greg with his deadlift German for the pin. Not a great No Holds Barred match but a great wrestling match. I have to check Cawthon's site and see if this was a regular match or No DQ. If it was no holds barred, merely solid. If it was just a match, this was really an easy nomination.


It's a Texas Death Match, which is essentially No Holds Barred / No DQ with the title held up in an MSG-only angle, hence the pop at the end and Bob (and the crowd) looking as close to a title winning look as you saw in this period.

A lot of the TDM were like this: they'd do spots to get across the concept, but it would then force them into working a match. The point didn't seem to be to escalate the violence from start to finish, but to eliminate the screwiness that caused the prior match to go off the rails.

In this case, they did their early spots, and then got down to destroying each other's legs... which was a whole selling point of Greg in the feud(s). It's a damn good match.

John


Then they finally got the formula right for the Sarge vs. Sheik Boot Camp match. I prefer violence on top of violence.

#49 jdw

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 04:37 PM

Cage matches tended to have the violence.

#50 Superstar Sleeze

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 10:32 PM

Without even trying I keep watching the same matches as jdw, hey it makes the play-by-play reviewing easier that's for sure. WWF I-C Champion Greg Valentine vs Ricky Steamboat I had never seen this match before, but always meant to. I may start a Steamboat thread because I have watched about seven of his matches today. He is surprisingly more hit or miss than I expected, but this is the Valentine thread. I have always thought the Valentine/Piper dog collar match was one of the better blood feud matches I have seen. The Garvin series is pretty good and served as my first exposure to the awesomeness that is Ron Garvin. I have never gotten around to watching Valentine/Santana. I have seen the '84 Backlund match and liked it, but have never seen the '79 match everyone hypes. He seems like one tough hombre and a wrestler I would enjoy as long as he is opposed to someone colorful like a Roddy Piper. They were really trying to capitalize on Kung-Fu with Steamboat's character in the WWF because everyone needs a gimmick. Mean Gene drops the term Jiu-jitsu, I didnt think that was popular until the rise of the Gracies and UFC in the early 90s. The kung-fu shit makes this match really jarring as neither guy seems to understand how to work it into the match. I liked the sumo slaps though. Valentine looked great on offense and followed up logically on his transition onto offense. The nice thing about the Hammer when watching a copious amount of 80s WWF is his strikes stand out more than the relatively weak shots most WWF guys give each other. I knew what they going for with Steamboat on the outside, but it seemed like Steamboat was holding himself up against apron with a blank stare for way too long. The slugfest was the best part, but that was quick. The finish was decent. I expected a lot better, but thought Valentine was the better of the two. It never got out of first gear and I have seen a lot better offensive performances out of Steamboat. Valentine stands out in 80s WWF, but I am still waiting to find that all-time classic. I would hazard a guess that gem is either '79 Backlund or within the Tito series. Decisions, decisions, stick with Steamboat and watch Steamboat/Jake or go Valentine/Tito.

#51 Dylan Waco

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 11:00 PM

Valentine/Tito feud SMOKES Jake/Steamboat

#52 Superstar Sleeze

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 11:11 PM

Yeah, I went with a horrible third option of picking Tito/Muraco. What a borefest, stay away from that. Been down on the Steamer recently, Im going with Tito/Valentine. Lets see what is online. I think I have one of their matches from a WWE DVD comp.

#53 goodhelmet

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 11:37 PM

Tito-Valentine is one of the greatest feuds of any decade.

#54 Superstar Sleeze

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 11:54 PM

WWF I-C Champ Tito Santana vs Greg Valentine 6/16/84 MSG I expected just a good appetizer for the main feud given that this was the first match of the series and it was definitely a match that got me excited to see more. I am so glad they went with arm work rather than a headlock to open. The accidentally falling out of the ropes leading to a heated exchange outside piqued my interest early. I liked Valentine's transition onto offense by using a Tito Thesz Press and turning it into a reverse atomic drop. I like my heels to bump big, but what Valentine lacks in bumping he more than makes up with in killer offense. I need to watch more Tito because he is an excellent babyface at garnering heat based off his selling. That is only one part of the equation, Tito builds on that with a fantastic heated comeback. With the Tito onslaught bearing down on him, Valentine has no chance but to dump him over the top and follow up with a atomic drop on the floor. Valentine picks up a countout win and a rematch. They don't over do it in this match. Valentine didnt get the figure-four nor Santana get the Flying Burrito (did it actually have a name?), but at the same time it was never dull. It was well-worked and made you want to see the next match, where they can now build on this foundation add layers and spots and really elevate the drama. I am really looking forward to rest of the series now.

#55 Superstar Sleeze

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 12:11 AM

WWF I-C Champ Greg Valentine vs Tito Santana 10/22/84 MSG You know how in the modern WWE product announcers will say "I have never seen Wrestler X so intense in my life." whenever they are trying to re-push someone. If there was ever a time that cliched statement was apropos it was this Tito Santana performance because Holy Shit! I have never seen him so intense in my life. There was no denying Tito Santana. He was pissed off and taking it out on Valentine's face. Questions: Do we have the title change? How did Tito's leg get hurt? I am so excited for the rematch because I am assuming Valentine is going to grab a hold of that leg and elevate the quality from there.

#56 Johnny Sorrow

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 12:15 AM

They were really trying to capitalize on Kung-Fu with Steamboat's character in the WWF because everyone needs a gimmick.

Kung- Fu had been off the air since 1975. It was more "everyone needs a gimmick" like you said, and Ninjas were hot in 1985.

#57 Ricky Jackson

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 01:15 AM

Fucked up the post. Read the next one.

#58 Ricky Jackson

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 01:22 AM

WWF I-C Champ Greg Valentine vs Tito Santana 10/22/84 MSG

You know how in the modern WWE product announcers will say "I have never seen Wrestler X so intense in my life." whenever they are trying to re-push someone. If there was ever a time that cliched statement was apropos it was this Tito Santana performance because Holy Shit! I have never seen him so intense in my life. There was no denying Tito Santana. He was pissed off and taking it out on Valentine's face.

Questions: Do we have the title change? How did Tito's leg get hurt? I am so excited for the rematch because I am assuming Valentine is going to grab a hold of that leg and elevate the quality from there.


The title change was on All-Star Wrestling, taped in London, Ontario 9/24/84, aired 10/13/84. Short match with Tito selling the knee injury from the outset. http://www.youtube.c...tY3qG74#t=4523s
The 8/25/84 match at MSG is where the knee was injured. The 1/21/85 MSG match is very good and the 3/17/85 Lumberjack match is fun. Actually, you should watch the whole History of the IC title CHV from that link if you have the time. It tells a good story of the Valentine-Santana feud, has the clips of the Santana-Muraco title change, and the story of the earlier Muraco-Morales IC feud is pretty good as well.

#59 Superstar Sleeze

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 10:13 AM

Thanks, Ricky! I watched the August MSG match in full. It is pretty pedesterian though Valnetine does bust out a shoulderbreaker and they were running an angle with Snuka in critical condition due to a beating from Piper. It is really more of an angle, but it is a really good angle. The ref bump -> Flying Burrito -> Santana gets pin, but Valentine's foot is on ropes unbeknowst to Tito/ref (Protecting the ref!) -> Valentine gets pissed, slaps on the figure-4 and breaks his leg. This leads to the clips I saw of the title where Valentine gets the victory where they do a great play on this finish. This time the ref sees Valentine's foot on the ropes and Tito is the one who thinks he wins only to have the rug taken out from underneath him in the form of a high-knee to the back and Valentine winning the title. Between breaking his leg and stealing his title, I would say Tito's Latin Temper was fully justified in the October rematch that I watched. I cant find the '85 Boston match (guess I am going to have to buy the revised 80s WWF set ;) ) , so I am going to have to settle for the January '85 MSG match. Arriba! WWF I-C Champion Greg Valentine vs Tito Santana 1/21/85 MSG The Flair spot that always seemed the most nonsense to me was the fact that all of his opponents suddenly decided that the Figure-4 was in their repertoire. What I loved about this storyline was Tito was so pissed at Greg that he went out and learned the Figure-4 from Jack Brisco just so he could break Valentine's leg. The beginning was good with Tito's punches being sold well and his initial intent to go after the leg. The first Valentine control segment was well-worked, but nothing awesome. Starting with Tito's first fiery comeback that when this match really picked up, Tito is a great house afire and really brings the violence with his strikes. Valentine was great at putting over his fear of losing the title and possibly his leg as he was constantly powdering as Tito was zeroing in on his leg. My favorite transition to heel heat segment is when an overzealous babyface goes crashing to the outside and this time it happened to Tito on his flying burrito. Valentine's second control segment was much better performed and included the shoulderbreaker. I like the shouldbreaker a lot, but I feel like he should be using the shinbreaker instead. Also I didnt like how he marched around the ring with Tito after Tito going after his legs. They played lets try to get the Figure-4 on. A double clothesline levels the playing field and Tito sends Valentine careening to the outside with a Flying Burrito. The countout victory gets a big pop. I am liking this feud a lot and thought the October match really ratcheted up the heat. I still havent figured which match is the really all-time classic. With that said, bring on the gimmick matches! Reading over Dylan's review for the Boston match between the two, it is clear they duplicated the finish, but it seems like the body of the match is different enough (Valentine worked over the mid-section in NYC and used a lot of elbows) that could be the all-time classic match of the series.

#60 Superstar Sleeze

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 11:16 PM

WWF Intercontinental Champion Greg Valentine vs Tito Santana 3/17/85 MSG Lumberjack Match This is definitely my favorite match of series so far as it fleshes the hard-hitting action of the earlier matches with some more time to build to a great climax. They do a great job to get over the lumberjack stip by having Tito have his most impressive babyface shine and Valentine constantly powdering. Valentine takes over after Tito is a bit overzealous charging into the corner. Valentine, aimless at first, settles into his bread and butter working over the leg. Most of Tito's hope spots induce great hard-hitting slugfests. Valentine's forearms are just gnarly and Tito's left jab is a thing of beauty. During Tito's comeback, all the drama is whether Tito can apply the figure-4 and gain a measure of revenge. When Santana applies the hold, the Garden erupts and even I am feeling it. However, it is all for naught because the dastardly Big John Studd pulls Valentine to the safety of the ropes. Santana gives him the business; Valentine recovers; they end up doing the double noggin-knocker and Valentine falls on top for the finish. I really liked this match and it was a ton of fun. However, I would not put it over Backlund/Valentine '84 or Backlund/Patera '80. I need to find the blowoff cage match, before I can call it quits on this feud.




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