Posted 20 December 2012 - 02:35 AM
Posted 20 December 2012 - 03:58 AM
Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:57 AM
Posted 20 December 2012 - 07:31 AM
Posted 20 December 2012 - 10:29 AM
Posted 20 December 2012 - 11:36 AM
Posted 20 December 2012 - 12:19 PM
Posted 20 December 2012 - 12:33 PM
Posted 20 December 2012 - 12:49 PM
Posted 20 December 2012 - 01:39 PM
Posted 20 December 2012 - 02:57 PM
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Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:26 PM
Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:28 PM
I'll respond with a longer post lat because you guys are killing me.
"so-so Murdoch" ... As if such a thing exists. Phil and I have heard the criticism and it is usually something you hear on why he isn't in the hall of fame because people thought he would take night's off. I think Phil and I have watched more Murdoch than anyone because of the 80s projects and it was the furthest thing from the truth. He may have had bad matches but it wasn't becAse he was phoning it in.
Also, I have seen tons of Murdoch which I will reference and tons of Muraco. Still looking for a good Muraco match. I think we had 10-15 great Murdoch matches on the Mid South set alone if not more.
I think you misread what I wrote:
Muraco was a Lazy Motherfucker.
Dick may have some matches that are flat and don't really grab you, but he doesn't come across as having the Lazy Streak that Don does.
Not entirely sure how much more clear I could have made the point. Muraco's laziness is open for everyone to see. Dick has some matches that were flat and don't grab me, but it wasn't because he was putting in a lazy performance like Muraco did *almost all the time*.
What I was trying to get at was a contrast: people who claim that Dick was lazy are wrong because they can use Muraco as a peer example of what true laziness looks like.
That said, I have seen Dick matches that I thought were shit. The Briscos vs Adonis & Murdoch match in MSG was, to me, shit. It wasn't because anyone was lazy in the match generally speaking. It was because their work was bad.
* * * * *
As far as a Good Muraco Match, I like:
* the front end of his Rocky feud (either the first MSG or Cap Center match)
* the very front end of his Snuka feud (i.e. angle and first matches at MSG and the Cap Center)
I like the 9/81 MSG match and 10/81 Phily matches more than you do, and think the first is terrific while the second is a very solid 60 minute match with an interesting variety of body work.
I like the 11/81 Philly match a good deal, and the Nitro-style 11/81 match at the Cap Center. Each has a spot that's a bit botced, but have a lot of cool things.
I like the 2/83 MSG match a heck of a lot, which I was an idiot for not having watched before you did your Backlund set. I'd rate all five of those as good-or-better. In turn, the 3/83 MSG match is quite poor.
I'll grant that stuff like the 9/81 match generate polarizing views. Some think it's an excellent old school match. Some think it's boring as fuck. I could point to the crowd being into the match as a sign that it wasn't boring, but I'm sure that someone could point the crowd of the 60ish minute Brody-Flair match as being into it while I find it boring as hell. Different people find different things boring.
Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:30 PM
Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:42 PM
Dave has said that the available footage doesn't tell the whole story because you couldn't afford to dog it on TV in New Japan and Mid-South. He said he was at a house show match in Japan where Murdoch spent the whole match lying in a hold and then got up, yelled "Miller Time!," and hit the brainbuster to finish. Regardless of whether it's true or not, it doesn't affect my opinion of him any more than when people make similar arguments against Bret Hart or Jumbo or anyone else. Who cares what you do at minor shows if you bring it when it matters?
Well, Dave has had to reinvent his argument on "Jumbo Is Lazy" at least four times as each version was shown to be wrong. It's pretty much a goofy comment at this point.
On Bret... I think a number of us saw some bad Bret nights. The one that sticks out in my mind as this card:
WWF @ Los Angeles, CA - Sports Arena - October 26, 1991 (13,800; 12,400 paid)
Jim Neidhart pinned Hercules
IRS pinned the Big Bossman after hitting him with the steel briefcase
Davey Boy Smith defeated Col. Mustafa
The Mountie defeated WWF IC Champion Bret Hart via count-out
The Berzerker defeated Greg Valentine
WWF Tag Team Champions the Legion of Doom defeated the Natural Disasters via disqualification when Jimmy Hart interfered
WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan defeated Ric Flair via reverse decision at 13:28
Where pretty much the entire cards was dogshit except for the main event. The Mountie-Bret match stood out as extra bad, probably because it was one of the few things on the undercard that we had some hope for. I wouldn't be surprised if Dave's review of the Oakland card the night before indicates it was a dog as well.
Murdoch... I haven't seen the lazy matches. Ones that I don't think are good, but not lazy ones.
Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:46 PM
Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:49 PM
Posted 20 December 2012 - 07:17 PM
Where are all these matches where the arm work is paid off?
01/21/96 Ohtani vs El Samurai
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