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Shinya Hashimoto


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I don't feel like dropping Hash's spot of the GOAT poll was trolling. It was a way to demonstrate that Hash has been highly thought of for quite some time, although not as high as you (and maybe me as a matter of fact, although I don't remember how high I voted him back then) would want to. You have chosen to ignore that point and come back with petty personnal shots at me instead. You way of dealing with it I guess.

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Enough bullshit, where do we all think Hash rates next to the AJPW guys. I've already said my piece on this and could add more, but I'm interested to hear what others have to say on that.

 

I would also be interested to see if I'm the only person who thinks Hash adapted well to seemingly random challenge better than virtually anyone from that era. Aside from maybe Kawada and Tenryu, I can't imagine another Japanese heavy from the period getting as much as he got out of Scott Norton or Sasaki. I doubt very many guys could have had that match with Zangiev (Hase would have been an interesting opponent for him, but I don't know that Hase ever knew how to milk the moments like Hash). I know I can't picture any of the other names aside from Kawada working as well with Takada. Not even sure Kawada would have worked as well opposite Regal. Of course it's guesswork and people don't have to take this approach, but when I talk about him being underrated I don't mean "no one thinks much of him" I mean "no one talks much about him" and more importantly "no one talks much about him next to guys who were his peers outside of his own promotion."

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As much as Misawa, Kawada and Kobashi? And have there been discussions of where he ranks among the all-time greats, by comparison to the All Japan guys and other GOAT candidates? Not that I've seen. That's the point, not that no one has ever liked Shinya Hashimoto.

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Hashimoto, along with Jumbo, was really underrated... like a decade ago. Now the only people who rate him behind, say, Mutoh are people who haven't watched much puro. Talk about Hash not being appreciated is fighting an old fight that has already been settled. He's generally rated as a top 10/15 Japanese wrestler now. I'm very glad that many people took the effort to put Hash over and turn the tide. I for one started out not enjoying Hash and now I love him.

 

In terms of his peak versus Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi, I still take the latter three without hesitation. Better highs and better lows. We can play "what if they switched companies" all day long but the bottom line is what actually happened. I think a good comp to Hashimoto is Tenryu: pudgy, stiff, wrestled a wide variety of opponents, and often dealing with inferior competition on the opposite side. Tenryu is solidly in front of Hash, and not just because of longevity. I can see where someone would prefer Tenryu to Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi, and vice-versa. It's harder for Hashimoto, who has a much more limited moveset and a much smaller number of MOTYCs in his resume, to get that Top 10 worldwide/GOAT level of support. [edit: of course as I wrote the post someone says they like Hash over Tenryu...]

 

I'm not sure much of anyone from Japan is significantly underrated at this point. Over the past 5 years we've seen surges in support for Fujinami, Choshu, Dick Togo, Fujiwara, Yatsu, and additional top-tier support for Tenryu.

 

Maybe the problem is that a lot of this discussion and 'new consensus' is taking place on forums with the uber-hardcores, but isn't finding its way to places like the WON community with broader reach among what I'd dub 'mainstream' smarks. The kind of people who learned about puro from ROH and think Dragon Gate is mindblowing. But in that case we're dealing with straight-up ignorance, and the puro-watching community outside Japan has always been small so that's nothing new. Where this can become frustrating is that someone like Fujiwara can't get a fair shake in HOF discussion despite having major historical significance and being a great worker, because his matches don't appeal to casual puro fans and he apparently isn't seen as a big deal in Japan.

 

So anyway... Hashimoto is underrated by people who haven't seen any Hashimoto. But for people with a reasonably significant amount of puro viewing under their belt, he gets love.

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Dave has said for years he was only over because New Japan fans bought into him as a legit tough guy.

Dave also was slow to get onto Hash being a great worker. He loved Mutoh and Chono among the Three Musketeers, and Hase outside of the three. He wasn't a good judge of Hash at the time, and probably isn't a good one to point to now.

 

John

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Hashimoto is one of the most underrated wrestlers who ever lived.

Since when ? The day I stumbled onto puroresu I heard about Hash as being a great fucking wrestler.

This.

 

Dylan read my stuff in the Torch in 1996 & 1997. I put Hash over like a motherfucker, more so than Mutoh and Chono. The latest that the hardcore wrestling community "got" that Hash was great was when he won the belt back from Takada and went on his second long run (taking reigns 1+2 as the first long run) with the belt. People were kind of coming to that view near the end of the first run, the G1 final loss to Mutoh and the tag reign with Hirata. But it was clear in the second run.

 

I don't think Hash has been underated ever since, other than those who failed to see what a complete fuck up the later Hash-Ogawa feud was. My guess is that if we look back at the GWE poll that Hash did quite well in it relative to his New Japan heavyweight peers.

 

John

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My guess is that if we look back at the GWE poll that Hash did quite well in it relative to his New Japan heavyweight peers.

Hash: 24

Mutoh: 53

Chono: 72

 

Add in Hase, Choshu, Fujinami, Sasaki and Koshinaka.

 

John

 

Hase : 33

Fujinami : 58

Koshinaka : 77

Choshu : 100

Sasaki : 105

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As much as Misawa, Kawada and Kobashi? And have there been discussions of where he ranks among the all-time greats, by comparison to the All Japan guys and other GOAT candidates? Not that I've seen. That's the point, not that no one has ever liked Shinya Hashimoto.

Here's one of the problems one runs into. When folks tend to do "comparative" thingies with the NJPW and AJPW guys, they run into things like this. We have Yearbooks for 1993-96, which cover most of Hash's peak run (1994-96 just missing 1997 into 1998), along with his role in the peak of the Tenryu vs New Japan feud (1993). You ranked matches in those four years. Here are the AJPW ones and the "NJPW-ish" ones (i.e. including the Super J Cup and matches in WAR, UWFi and elsewhere that had NJPW natives in them):

 

 

#98 - Riki Choshu vs Genichiro Tenryu (NJPW Tokyo Dome 01/04/93)

#95 - Genichiro Tenryu vs Hiroshi Hase (NJPW 09/23/93)

#93 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Steve Williams (AJPW 09/03/93)

#83 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 04/14/93)

#81 - Genichiro Tenryu vs Riki Choshu (NJPW 04/06/93)

#77 - Riki Choshu, Shinya Hashimoto, Tatsumi Fujinami, Masa Chono & Hiroshi Hase vs Genichiro Tenryu, Ashura Hara, Takashi Ishikawa, Tatsu Goto & Super Strong Machine (NJPW 06/15/93)

#76 - Tatsumi Fujinami & Shinya Hashimoto vs Genichiro Tenryu & Takashi Ishikawa (WAR 05/24/93)

#70 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Akira Taue (AJPW 02/28/93)

#68 - Kenta Kobashi vs Terry Gordy (AJPW 05/29/93)

#66 - Hiroshi Hase vs Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/03/93)

#65 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Steve Williams & Big Boss Man (AJPW 11/24/93)

#59 - Doug Furnas & Dan Kroffat vs Kenta Kobashi & Satoru Asako (AJPW 08/20/93)

#56 - Shinya Hashimoto & Michiyoshi Ohara vs Ashura Hara & Kodo Fuyuki (WAR 03/07/93)

#54 - Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 04/16/93)

#53 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Stan Hansen (AJPW 05/21/93)

#51 - Genichiro Tenryu & Takashi Ishikawa vs Riki Choshu & Osamu Kido (WAR 03/03/93)

#49 - Wild Pegasus vs El Samurai (NJPW Top of the Super Juniors 06/14/93)

#46 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Stan Hansen & Giant Baba (AJPW 11/30/93)

#42 - Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs Jun Akiyama & Yoshinari Ogawa (AJPW 01/24/93)

#41 - Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs Toshiaki Kawada, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi (AJPW 10/02/93)

#39 - Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs Steve Williams & Big Boss Man (AJPW 12/01/93)

#38 - Genichiro Tenryu vs Shinya Hashimoto (WAR 06/17/93)

#36 - Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada, Akira Taue & Yoshinari Ogawa (AJPW 07/02/93)

#34 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Jun Akiyama (AJPW 07/09/93)

#33 - Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs Toshiaki Kawada, Akira Taue & Yoshinari Ogawa (AJPW 06/03/93)

#32 - Genichiro Tenryu vs Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/08/93)

#31 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada vs Steve Williams & Terry Gordy (AJPW 01/30/93)

#26 - Ultimo Dragon vs El Samurai (WAR 03/07/93)

#23 - Genichiro Tenryu, Ashura Hara & Takashi Ishikawa vs Keiji Muto, Akira Nogami & Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW 02/05/93)

#22 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Masa Fuchi (AJPW 07/19/93)

#21 - Steve Williams vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 08/31/93)

#19 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 10/23/93)

#18 - Keiji Muto & Hiroshi Hase vs Shinya Hashimoto & Masa Chono (NJPW 11/04/93)

#17 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 06/01/93)

#16 - Stan Hansen vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW 02/28/93)

#15 - Riki Choshu, Tatsumi Fujinami, Osamu Kido, Hiroshi Hase & Tayayuki Iizuka vs Genichiro Tenryu, Ashura Hara, Takashi Ishikawa, Ricky Fuyuki & Tatsumi Kitahara (NJPW 02/16/93)

#14 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW Championship Carnival 03/27/93)

#13 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Akira Taue (AJPW Championship Carnival 04/12/93)

#3 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 12/03/93)

#1 - Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 07/29/93)

 

 

#100 - Steve Williams vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW Championship Carnival 04/15/94)

#97 - El Samurai vs Great Sasuke (NJPW Super J Cup 04/16/94)

#96 - Jushin Liger vs Super Delphin (NJPW Best of the Super Juniors 05/30/94)

#94 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Masa Fuchi (AJPW 01/07/94)

#90 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW Championship Carnival 04/11/94)

#82 - Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada, Akira Taue & Yoshinari Ogawa (AJPW 10/07/94)

#78 - Kenta Kobashi vs Akira Taue (AJPW Championship Carnival 03/24/94)

#74 - Jushin Liger, Shinjiro Otani, El Samurai & Tokimitsu Ishikawa vs Great Sasuke, Shiryu, Sato & Taka Michinoku (NJPW 06/15/94)

#60 - Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama vs Stan Hansen, Giant Baba & Takao Omori (AJPW 04/16/94)

#57 - Steve Williams vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 09/03/94)

#51 - Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW Championship Carnival 04/10/94)

#49 - Hiroshi Hase vs Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW 12/13/94)

#48 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 11/25/94)

#44 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Steve Williams & Johnny Ace (AJPW 12/10/94)

#41 - Steve Williams vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW Championship Carnival 03/29/94)

#38 - Genichiro Tenryu vs Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW 02/17/94)

#32 - Rick & Scott Steiner vs Keiji Muto & Hiroshi Hase (NJPW Tokyo Dome 01/04/94)

#30 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Steve Williams & Johnny Ace (AJPW 07/22/94)

#26 - Wild Pegasus vs Great Sasuke (NJPW Super J Cup 04/16/94)

#24 - Shinya Hashimoto vs Shiro Koshinaka (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/06/94)

#21 - Jushin Liger vs Great Sasuke (NJPW Super J Cup 04/16/94)

#15 - Jushin Liger vs Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW 02/24/94)

#13 - Great Sasuke & Black Tiger vs Wild Pegasus & Shinjiro Otani (NJPW 10/16/94)

#11 - Steve Williams vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW Championship Carnival 04/16/94)

#10 - Jushin Liger vs Great Sasuke (NJPW 07/08/94)

#8 - Steve Williams vs Mitsuharu Misawa (AJPW 07/28/94)

#4 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 05/21/94)

#1 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW 06/03/94)

 

 

#100 - Keiji Muto vs Junji Hirata (NJPW 09/25/95)

#98 - Chris Benoit vs Chris Jericho (WAR Super J Cup 12/13/95)

#86 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Jun Akiyama (AJPW Championship Carnival 03/21/95)

#85 - Rick & Scott Steiner vs Keiji Muto & Hiroshi Hase (NJPW Tokyo Dome 01/04/95)

#77 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Akira Taue (AJPW 09/10/95)

#74 - Keiji Muto vs Shiro Koshinaka (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/12/95)

#72 - Ultimo Dragon vs Shinjiro Otani (WAR Super J Cup 12/13/95)

#71 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Akira Taue (AJPW Championship Carnival 04/12/95)

#68 - Keiji Muto vs Shiro Koshinaka (NJPW 12/11/95)

#66 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 01/24/95)

#64 - Steven Regal vs Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW 04/16/95)

#57 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Steve Williams & Johnny Ace (AJPW 03/04/95)

#56 - Shinya Hashimoto vs Kensuke Sasaki (NJPW Tokyo Dome 01/04/95)

#55 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW Championship Carnival 04/06/95)

#54 - Masa Chono & Hiroyoshi Tenzan vs Yoji Anjo & Yoshihiro Takayama (UWFI 11/25/95)

#52 - Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi & Satoru Asako vs Toshiaki Kawada, Akira Taue & Tamon Honda (AJPW 06/30/95)

#51 - Rob Van Dam vs Dan Kroffat (AJPW 06/09/95)

#47 - Wild Pegasus vs Koji Kanemoto (NJPW 03/13/95)

#45 - Keiji Muto vs Masa Chono (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/12/95)

#44 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 10/25/95)

#43 - Jushin Liger vs Ultimo Dragon (WAR Super J Cup 12/13/95)

#40 - Masa Chono & Hiroyoshi Tenzan vs Hiroshi Hase & Kensuke Sasaki (NJPW 03/07/95)

#39 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Gary Albright (AJPW 10/25/95)

#35 - Manami Toyota vs Aja Kong (AJW 03/26/95)

#34 - Kenta Kobashi vs Akira Taue (AJPW 03/21/95)

#26 - Shinya Hashimoto & Junji Hirata vs Masa Chono & Hiroyoshi Tenzan (NJPW 06/12/95)

#22 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW 07/24/95)

#18 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW Championship Carnival 03/26/95)

#17 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW Championship Carnival 04/13/95)

#16 - Kenta Kobashi vs Akira Taue (AJPW 07/24/95)

#15 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 01/19/95)

#14 - Shinjiro Otani vs Koji Kanemoto (NJPW 04/16/95)

#11 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 10/15/95)

#8 - Keiji Muto vs Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/15/95)

#5 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Akira Taue (AJPW Championship Carnival 04/08/95)

#2 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 06/09/95)

#1 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Akira Taue (AJPW Championship Carnival 04/15/95)

 

 

#96 - Jushin Liger vs Dick Togo (NJPW Skydiving J 06/17/96)

#92 - Masa Chono vs Keiji Muto (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/06/96)

#90 - Jushin Liger & Black Tiger vs Shinjiro Otani & Koji Kanemoto (NJPW 02/15/96)

#88 - Vader vs Antonio Inoki (NJPW 01/04/96)

#83 - Shinya Hashimoto & Junji Hirata vs Yoshihiro Takayama & Yoji Anjo (NJPW 02/25/96)

#81 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Akira Taue (AJPW 05/24/96)

#80 - Shiro Koshinaka vs Satoshi Kojima (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/06/96)

#79 - Taka Michinoku vs Super Delphin (NJPW Skydiving J 06/17/96)

#78 - Shinya Hashimoto & Junji Hirata vs Kazuo Yamazaki & Takashi Iizuka (NJPW 06/12/96)

#75 - Jushin Liger vs Shinjiro Otani (NJPW 03/17/96)

#73 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Kenta Kobashi & The Patriot (AJPW 11/22/96)

#71 - Riki Choshu vs Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/02/96)

#70 - Jushin Liger, Gran Naniwa & Gran Hamada vs Dick Togo & Taka Michinoku & Shoichi Funaki (Michinoku Pro 08/18/96)

#68 - Nobuhiko Takada vs Shiro Koshinaka (NJPW 03/01/96)

#63 - Steven Regal vs Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW 09/21/96)

#58 - Black Tiger & El Samurai & Gran Hamada vs Shinjiro Otani & Koji Kanemoto & Dean Malenko (NJPW 02/25/96)

#57 - Ultimo Dragon vs Great Sasuke (NJPW J*Crown 08/05/96)

#53 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 05/24/96)

#52 - Shinya Hashimoto vs Shiro Koshinaka (NJPW 09/23/96)

#50 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 03/31/96)

#49 - Genichiro Tenryu vs Great Muta (WAR 10/11/96)

#48 - Masa Chono & Hiroyoshi Tenzan vs Kazuo Yamazaki & Takashi Iizuka (NJPW 09/23/96)

#45 - Keiji Muto vs Shiro Koshinaka (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/05/96)

#44 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Johnny Ace & Gary Albright (AJPW 04/20/96)

#40 - Nobuhiko Takada & Masahito Kakihara vs Tatsumi Fujinami & Yoshiaki Fujiwara (UWFI 06/26/96)

#39 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Akira Taue (AJPW 03/31/96)

#37 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 05/23/96)

#33 - Steve Williams vs Akira Taue (AJPW 04/20/96)

#30 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Steve Williams & Johnny Ace (AJPW 11/16/96)

#27 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Steve Williams & Johnny Ace (AJPW 06/07/96)

#25 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Steve Williams & Johnny Ace (AJPW 09/05/96)

#22 - Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs Steve Williams & Johnny Ace (AJPW 11/22/96)

#21 - Kenta Kobashi vs Akira Taue (AJPW 07/24/96)

#18 - Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 09/05/96)

#14 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 10/18/96)

#13 - Ultimo Dragon vs Shinjiro Otani (NJPW J*Crown 08/05/96)

#11 - Wild Pegasus vs Black Tiger (NJPW 06/11/96)

#10 - Shinjiro Otani vs El Samurai (NJPW 01/21/96)

#8 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 07/09/96)

#4 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 11/29/96)

#1 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 12/06/96)

 

Setting aside the two obvious things from the lists, a couple of things come to mind and/or are worth thinking about:

 

* it's hard to say that Hash is "under represented" on the Yearbooks

 

Looking at 1993, he had 15 matches, 8 of which made Loss' Top 100. There may have been some matches that I kind of liked that didn't make the cut (his 12/93 defense against Sasaki which reflected well on Hash being able to work looooooong with a not-great worker)... but there probably weren't any Top 100 candidates missed the cut. A lot of his stuff made the Yearbooks.

 

* Hash was well liked in those four Yearbooks

 

A good amount of it was praised and highly thought of. If you read the comments in there threads on his matches (I sampled a dozen for refreshers), he's very praised. Not just by Loss, but by various posters. There also wasn't really a vibe of "Hash is better than I thought", but instead a vibe going in that Hash was great and this is an example of where he was great.

 

* there are a fair number of good / very good AJPW matches from those years left on the cutting room floor

 

I think we've all admitted that given the space limitations. Some of it is repetition of the match ups in AJPW, and some of it is that you can't really put in every cool thing from something like the 1994 Carny. That's not to say that the Kawada-Akiyama and Williams-Akiyama from that Carny would have made the Top 100 of 1994 (which was pretty damn deep), but they were pretty darn cool matches. Something like them from WCWSN (say Vader-Dustin) would have made the set. Things like them from NJPW often made the sets as well. That's just the breaks with AJPW.

 

* the NJPW Juniors do better with you that most would expect given the run of "NJPW Jrs Sux" vibe that now is pretty common

 

1993 is the exception to that, which wasn't exactly a bang up year for the NJ Juniors. Anyway, I was susprised when looking thought this to see how well they did.

 

* this was kind of interesting, not just for the order but also by the one that's missing:

 

#71 - Riki Choshu vs Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/02/96)

#68 - Nobuhiko Takada vs Shiro Koshinaka (NJPW 03/01/96)

#63 - Steven Regal vs Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW 09/21/96)

#52 - Shinya Hashimoto vs Shiro Koshinaka (NJPW 09/23/96)

#49 - Genichiro Tenryu vs Great Muta (WAR 10/11/96)

#35 - Genichiro Tenryu vs Nobuhiko Takada (UWFI 09/11/96)

#31 - Nobuhiko Takada vs Genichiro Tenryu (WAR 12/13/96)

 

Not arguing with it, but the most famous and talked about match (over the years) and generally well thought off isn't there, while six of those have been generally obscure in discussions over the years. That is one of the great things about the Yearbooks - people get to see a ton of matches that haven't gotten a lot of run over the years.

 

Anyway...

 

John

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given the run of "NJPW Jrs Sux" vibe that now is pretty common

I don't see that at all. More, "NJPW juniors were overrated". There's still plenty of respect for Liger, Kanemoto, Ohtani, and Samurai gets his due. But now there's equal-to-greater respect for the NJ heavies, especially Hash.
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Hase would drop to the lower reaches of the top 100. Koshinaka would fall out entirely. Hash might jump up a few spots but probably not into the top 15.

 

Hash is one of my very favorite wrestlers -- love everything from his entrance music to his incredible ability to up the intensity of a match when he took a hot tag or started a comeback. Dylan described it well; he just had that rare ability to change the tone of a match without doing anything overly showy. I do associate him with Tenryu in that respect, and not surprisingly, they were great against each other.

 

I'd still rate him below Misawa and Kawada, because their best stuff was the best wrestling there ever was. I'd rate him above Kobashi, because I prefer the short, hot matches at which he excelled to Kobashi's more epic stuff. But if we're talking longer singles matches, Kobashi blew him away. Hash matches started to drag if he went too much past 20 minutes.

 

Him vs. Choshu is interesting, because Choshu is his spiritual godfather. I'd probably take Hash by a nose because he worked a little harder.

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I don't like comparing NJPW heavyweights to AJPW heavyweights that much. To me they are two totally different styles that don't have a ton in common besides being "wrestling that happened in Japan."

 

Shortest description of it I ever mustered that made any sense was referencing it to boxing video games: All Japan was those games with Flash KO's turned off. The only way to keep someone down was to beat them down to 0 health through a sequence of hard hits. New Japan was with Flash KO's on. You had more of an impression that one big move could end a fight suddenly.

 

There are times I found that New Japan heavyweight style hugely frustrating. Their history is full of big matches where they pace it like they're going 40 minutes then it suddenly ends after 20. That's what they do.

 

I think Hash pretty clearly outshines Muto or Chono. Muto had great matches, then had some total dog shit I find the worst wrestling ever. Such a confusing guy. I can immensely enjoy some of his work but he's also is some of the most vilely awful things I've ever seen. Chono, I'm kind of sorry injuries ruined such a huge percentage of his career. You watch some of the early 1990's TV before his body was broken, and he was an amazing worker at 10-15 minute TV matches in that stretch. Probably the best of the three for a time. But it didn't last, and he really wasn't that good for huge stretches because his body was just not with it. Hashimoto is still better on the whole by a long way, and part of that was his relative longevity.

 

I don't know if I'd watch a best of Hashimoto before a best of Misawa, Kawada, or Kobashi. I don't see what the rationelle for that would be except "I don't like All Japan/I don't have the attention span for All Japan".

 

I would probably take Tenryu over Hashimoto as a worker overall, but I feel like I'd have to really dig into that to come to a conclusion. I do love me some grumpy old bastard Tenryu just not giving a shit and destroying people, though. And what I saw of Hashimoto in Zero-1 wasn't that positive. People don't bring up how blah a lot of that stuff was.

 

But I still say Takada vs. Hashimoto is the best heavyweight match I've seen in New Japan, and an all time classic. And Hash's best matches are pretty easily the best group to pick out of his (main) company.

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Since Hashimoto has never really been underrated, I'm going to take Dylan's argument to mean that he should be rated even higher than he is. I'm not so sure about that. I like Hashimoto a great deal, but it seems to me there were limitations to his style and the way he worked that prevented him from having as many great matches as he perhaps could have. Maybe I'm wrong, but because his matches didn't have the same kind of build as an All Japan heavyweight bout and relied more on atmosphere and energy, those latter two qualities had to be right for the match to be memorable and those things are difficult to produce.

 

I also have a tough time imaging how good Hashimoto vs. the All Japan workers would have been. Hashimoto vs. Kawada and Taue seems appealing, but Hashimoto vs. Misawa or Kobashi strikes me as a bit of a style clash. I suppose it could have worked since styles make fights, but I'm not sure it would have been an automatic slam dunk. Kind of like how Jumbo/Hansen or Misawa/Hansen weren't.

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There are times I found that New Japan heavyweight style hugely frustrating. Their history is full of big matches where they pace it like they're going 40 minutes then it suddenly ends after 20. That's what they do.

This is my biggest problem with the New Japan heavies. A lot of the time, it feels like the initial feeling-out/matwork takes forever while the actual meat of the match is compressed and rushed. It wouldn't be as much of an issue if the matwork were sufficiently compelling, but most of the time, they're just playing grabass.

 

As far as the All Japan heavies go, Hash is behind Misawa, Kawada, and Kobashi for sure. I'm not sure where he stands compared to Taue. Of the three guys who can all be grouped together stylistically (Hash, Tenryu, Choshu), Tenryu is the best by a pretty good margin. My initial inclination is to put Choshu in front of Hash, but I could be convinced otherwise.

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I always thought it was fairly accepted that Hash was amongst the top of the NJ heavyweight workers. When discussing the top NJ heavyweight matches of the '90's his name comes up frequently, the two '95 Mutoh matches, the '94 Hase match, the '96 matches with Chosyu and Takada, the 6/96 IWGP Tag Titles classic.

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Since Hashimoto has never really been underrated, I'm going to take Dylan's argument to mean that he should be rated even higher than he is. I'm not so sure about that. I like Hashimoto a great deal, but it seems to me there were limitations to his style and the way he worked that prevented him from having as many great matches as he perhaps could have. Maybe I'm wrong, but because his matches didn't have the same kind of build as an All Japan heavyweight bout and relied more on atmosphere and energy, those latter two qualities had to be right for the match to be memorable and those things are difficult to produce.

 

I also have a tough time imaging how good Hashimoto vs. the All Japan workers would have been. Hashimoto vs. Kawada and Taue seems appealing, but Hashimoto vs. Misawa or Kobashi strikes me as a bit of a style clash. I suppose it could have worked since styles make fights, but I'm not sure it would have been an automatic slam dunk. Kind of like how Jumbo/Hansen or Misawa/Hansen weren't.

They did Hashimoto vs Kawada. It was good but it was in 2004 and nowhere near what it could have been.

 

Hashimoto vs Misawa would have worked if Hashimoto played Kobashi only with kicks and took the underdog role. Misawa dominates, Hash sells then makes the big comeback.

 

Hashimoto vs Kobashi would have been interesting. It would have been fiery and probably pretty good. Probably better if it was under 20 minutes though.

 

Hashimoto vs Hansen strikes me as possibly being alot of fun.

 

Hashimoto vs Akiyama or Taue probably wouldn't have been that interesting. But I didn't like Akiyama until NOAH and I prefer Taue as a tag wrestler until he got into NOAH. I guess with Taue you would go with the storyline of "Can he hit the chokeslam?".

 

Hashimoto vs Jumbo would have been really good.

 

Hashimoto vs Doc probably happened and would have been good.

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