Jump to content


Photo

The Rockers


  • Please log in to reply
59 replies to this topic

#21 soup23

soup23
  • Moderators
  • 10258 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 25 January 2013 - 07:44 AM

It is indeed the 88 MSG match so I will have that in the back of my mind.

#22 Matt D

Matt D

    4:40

  • Members
  • 10258 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:00 AM

Also,

when you're done with your write up, if you want to compare, here's ours:
http://board.deathva...t/#entry1149097

It's the first one we did so I probably would have written it up a little differently at the end. I'm curious what someone thinks coming from seeing a lot of Rockers matches instead of a lot of Demolition matches.

#23 KB8

KB8
  • Members
  • 757 posts

Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:29 AM

The Demos match is one of my favourite tags ever.

The Rockers v Demolition (MSG, 10/24/88)

I love this match. There's about 5 Rockers matches that are my go-to matches for getting me out of a wrestling slump, and this is one of them. It's been getting talked up quite a bit on PWO thanks to the whole Demolition discussion (part of the 'PG-13 vs. The World' thread that motivated me to watch some tag wrestling in the first place), and irrespective of whether or not one thinks Demolition are great, good, bad, shitty or whatever, this match seems to be one everybody can get behind as something good. And it waaaay is. Starts out with your simple brute force v speed/quickness dynamic. Demolition's offence/lack of offence has been one of the main issues that's been debated in the aforementioned thread. Some people don't think they bring enough offence/have enough good offence/whatever. Others are content with what they do bring because they make up for any shortcomings by excelling in other departments (structure/"storytelling"/whatever). I can't really comment either way because, other than this match, I don't think I've watched a Demolition match in about 3 years. Here they're mostly about the clubbering. But I'm easily enough pleased and I can get behind good clubbering, and well, the Demos have some fucking good clubbering. Ax is throwing some especially nasty looking shots and basically trying to manhandle Michaels. Shawn attempts a crossbody and Ax just catches him, struts around the ring with him in his arms, and drills him onto the mat hard. Then Shawn and Marty shift gears and the Demos are on the back foot, totally caught out by the speed and struggling to slow things down at all. Lots of quick tags, tonnes of arm wringers, ducking wild punches before throwing some peppering jabs; the Rockers are going a million miles an hour and the Demos can't keep up. Until Ax just cracks Jannetty in the face with a headbutt. You can run around like a 12 year old on speed all you want, but at some point you'll stop to catch a glimpse of that side boob and then the dude in the facepaint will fucking kill you. They work over Jannetty briefly, but Shawn's back in pretty soon and from there they head into Shawn in peril as he hits the ropes at a hundred miles an hour and completely hurls himself over the top as Smash pulls the rope down. Looked like the crazy fuck almost broke his back going over. The Demos slow things down to a crawl at this point. There's a great moment where Smash has Michaels in a Boston Crab and appears to be losing it, so he tags in Ax and Ax just calmly walks in and blast him in the spine with a big old clubber. Hot tag comes and Jannetty is house o' fired to the max, and there's an awesome nearfall off of a rocket launcher before Ax breaks it up. Crowd really buy into Shawn and Marty winning this, and you can tell by the way they just deflate when it doesn't happen. Finish is super nasty as Smash pick up Marty in a bearhug and walks him over to the corner, while Ax channels Stan Hansen and nukes him square in the face with a lariat. It's a shame this match-up didn't happen more often, because it's a great one.


That's what I wrote about it a couple years ago. Apparently during one of the many Demolition run-arounds we've had here (might've even been the first).

#24 soup23

soup23
  • Moderators
  • 10258 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 29 January 2013 - 10:43 PM

Rockers vs Demolition (MSG, 10/24/1988) Trongard, Superstar, and Lord Al on commentary. Ax and Shawn start out. Ax shows complete dominance in strength advantage right from the get go. Ax hammers Shawn down and catches his crossbody for a big powerslam. Shawn’s punches look good here and show the contrast of the two teams strengths as they are short, fast, and compact. Smash and Marty are in now. Marty uses some stick and move tactics to avoid punishment but again get caught and this time Smash hammers him down like Ax did Shawn. Rockers hit three dropkicks and get a quick cover on Smash. Demolition regroups. Rockers start ringing out Smash’s arm and do a magnificent job of tagging in and out in a furor to the delight of the crowd. Smash misses a charge in the corner doing more damage to his shoulder. They repeat the same arm spots with Ax and the crowd is really behind them. Ax stunts all progress with a headbutt to Marty and Demo goes to work. Big double elbow from Demolition. Offense is not varied but clobbering and painful looking. However, it is very short as Marty is able to tag in Shawn. Shawn comes in a house of fire but takes a nasty tumble to the outside when Ax pulls down the ropes. Fuji gets in a cane shot on the outside. Boston crab by Demo and work continues on Shawn’s back. Bearhug utilized as Shawn has had a couple of good hope spots mixed in. Shawn has a nasty elbow smash to get out of the bearhug and hits the hot tag to Marty. Marty comes in and does a great sequence. Shawn comes back with offense too early for my liking and they do a double dropkick, double shoulderblock, and take out Fuji. Marty gets a sloppy looking splash that Smash breaks up. Smash catches Marty and Ax hits him with a huge clothesline to pick up the win for Demolition in 12 minutes. Good match but a tad disappointing based on previous watches for me. The structure of the match is very well done with speed vs. power always being an underlining theme. I just think this match had one minor flaw and one major flaw that took me out of it a little bit. The minor flaw was Shawn bouncing back after the hot tag. This seems to be something of a reoccurring theme and even 30 more seconds of Marty holding his own after the hot tag would go a long way. The bigger problem in the match to me though was the lack of urgency on Demolition’s part. One could argue that being slow and plodding is part of their work and plays into the theme of the match but we hardly got any pin attempts or any hustle when Shawn was close to making the tag. A little more enthusiasm from them would have gone a long way because from a mechanics standpoint they were fine. Most of Demolition’s charisma in this match was exemplified in the opening sequences. Overall a good match but going in I thought it might be a serious contender to the Powers of Pain match. After watching, the POP match took this template and tightened it up for an overall better performance.

#25 soup23

soup23
  • Moderators
  • 10258 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 31 January 2013 - 09:55 PM

The Rockers vs. Hart Foundation (Ft. Wayne 10/30/90) This match will break up the chronological track I had been running down up to this point but this match is not on my Rockers compilation. This match also has a few unique factors going for it. 1. It is 2 out of 3 falls 2. It was taped for SNME that never occurred 3. The version I saw had no commentary 4. In the 2nd fall, the top rope breaks off on one side of the ring 5. The crowd is awful and barely cheers 6. It is the match of the phantom title change for the Rockers Mixing in all of these mitigating circumstances, I thought this was a fabulous match. This thread is looking back at the Rockers but I would be remiss to not take a moment to talk about how great Bret Hart was in the first two falls of this match. I have always really liked Bret in face vs. face matches in that he works the match slightly different but still displays aggression towards his opponent. No hugging in the middle of the ring MMA bullshit when Bret wrestles another face. This work was really on display in the first fall and the second fall features him keeping everything together when the rope breaks and adapting some of his signature spots. He also kind of botches the ending to this match but overall a great performance for him. I especially enjoyed the first two falls of this match. It being face vs. face, there is less emphasis on many of the traditional tag moments I have seen in the Rockers matches so far. We also got quite a bit more mat wrestling than is customary. Anvil was used as a powerhouse effectively and both Shawn and Marty did a good job trying their best to avoid his powerful shots. The work with the ring rope breaking was creative and gritty. The ending while kind of looking bad is a good feel good moment in Rockers history. Right now this is neck and neck with the POP match as my favorite Rockers match.

#26 Superstar Sleeze

Superstar Sleeze
  • Members
  • 3151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 27 February 2013 - 10:02 PM

The Rockers vs The Brainbusters 3/89 MSG With these four in 1989, the question was how far above great could they get. I have watched this match a couple times and I enjoyed it the most this go around. The Rockers maybe the best babyface shine team in history as they know how to work a really fun opening ten minutes. Not to be out done, few bump, stooge and show ass as well as Arn & Tully. The Rockers do a great sequence of in sync spots with dropkicks and dives to the floor. I loved the transition of Shawn going for a headscissors and then being dropped on his head. You cant really beat Marty as a hot tag and Shawn as a babyface in peril in 1989 as both guys just have their act down. While Tully & Arn are at their best taking all sorts of shortcuts and working over Shawn slingshotting him into Tully's forearm or into the bottom rope throat-first. Marty gets the hot tag and explodes. This leads to a rocket launcher by Shawn before Arn pulls out the ref causing the DQ. The Rockers should have went over unless it was due to the fact they wanted to build Busters to get the belts. This is an excellent popcorn match that the Rockers excel. It felt more like a Rockers match than the typical Anderson tag match (hyperfocused limb work and extended heat segment). It was a real testament to the Rockers' ability at this time that AA would let them run their match.

#27 Jimmy Redman

Jimmy Redman
  • Members
  • 2338 posts

Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:07 AM

So as it happens, the From the Vault for this week's Smackdown is the Rockers vs Powers of Pain, MSG 15/1/90. Really freaking great tag. The Rockers' double team offense rules. Marty is the FIP and takes ABSURDLY GREAT bumps all over the shop. Barb's powerslam catching him off the top was awesome. The build to the hot tag is great and the finish is really well done. Everyone looked great here.

#28 Superstar Sleeze

Superstar Sleeze
  • Members
  • 3151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 23 July 2013 - 07:38 AM

Finally getting to the Rockers!!! Callooh! Callay! I was reading through this and the Demolition thread and I have gathered that the 10/88 had a bit of a rep as a great match. I just watched and I would say that I still prefer the Strike Force/Islanders & Bulldogs/Dream Team a bit more, but this was very, very good for a WWF Tag. I think Rockers/Powers Of Pain is quite a good deal better than '88 Rockers/Demos match. Since there is two reviews above me on the same match, I will keep it brief. WWF Tag Champs Demolition vs The Rockers MSG 10/88 This is the compressed version of the RnRs vs the Russians (well without the babyface title change) as this is one of the better speed vs power tag matches, but it is not just that. Demolition being outquicked is only one part of their match formula. The other is that the babyface always have to double up their moves. I love Smash barking "Stay in one place!" to Marty. It might be the most Darsow has ever added to any of his tag matches. I do like the wrinkle of Demolition matches where it does seem like from the outset that all the babyface teams will overwhelmed immediately only for face teams to find an initial way around it. In this case, it was the rapid arm work as they trapped Smash in their corner. They really made sure to move as quickly as possible. The crowd was really going bonkers for this and this was just a month before Demolition's babyface turn, which really shows how fast the Rockers got over. Marty does a quick FIP, but the real fireworks start when Shawn crashes and burns to the floor when Ax holds down the top rope. Demolition demonstrates a real singular purpose in attacking Shawn's lower back with the Boston Crab, sledges and bearhugs. This is the part of the match, which was psychologically sound, but I agree with Soup was missing that extra something to put this in the all-time classic canon. What is so great about the Rockers is that their is not a huge gulf in talent between the partners. Shawn's FIP is as good as Marty's hot tag. Now we see that Rockers are not only keeping Demos outbalance with quick work, but lots of doubling up of their moves: double dropkicks, double slams, double clothesline. Rockers look like they are going to get the pin, but Ax breaks it up. Ref detains Michaels and Smash carries Marty over to be punched in the face by Ax for the pin. This has all the usual Demolition motifs: babyfaces initially overwhelmed, they use their speed & double team moves; heel transition spot; Demos beatdown; go home. This is definitely the best Demolition match because the Rockers are best suited for this role even though Tama outbumped both the Rockers in his match. Demolition is just there on offense. It makes sense, but it does nothing for me. The Rockers being on offense was definitely the more entertaining parts of the match. Demolition as babyfaces just seem like it is going to be weird.

#29 Smack2k

Smack2k
  • Members
  • 1049 posts

Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:43 AM

Midnight Rockers had a nice run in Memphis as well after their first WWF days and before they returned to AWA Full time later in '87.. One match they have shown highlights of so I cant tell if it was good or not is vs. Rock 'N Roll Express....I would have really loved to see this match in 1987....think it could have been really good. Was it ever shown anywhere in full? Outside that, they were heels in Memphis (or turned heel) and were really good at it...Shawn was a good cocky heel. Its strange hearing Shawn say he really didnt care and wasnt into it when they were there since they thought they missed their big chance with WWF...but you couldnt tell from his on camera stuff... WWF Rockers I was never as much into...I think because they were just another tag team for a while in the group and not featured like in the other territories....Gorilla always called them "Tag Team Specialists.."...which I thought meant "Shitty singles wrestlers..."

#30 Superstar Sleeze

Superstar Sleeze
  • Members
  • 3151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 28 July 2013 - 08:17 PM

After watching all these WWF tag matches, I was being to think all this heel in peril stuff was a bit overstated, but then Demos/Bees and Rockers/Busters worked lengthy heel in peril segments. The Rockers vs The Brainbusters - 1/89 MSG This match is all about the Busters putting over the Rockers as the hot, new WWF tag team. Double A slaps Michaels and Michaels returns the favor showing he wont back down. Another fun spot is Tully tries to tag out while in a wristlock by having Arn tag his foot, but ref wont allow it. In an excellent sequence. Both the Busters put top wristlocks on Marty, Marty skins the cat; dropkicks the both of them; slams Arn and gives Tully a double superkick. The Rockers are rolling. Tully, sensing things are getting out of hand, feigns extending an olive branch only to kick Marty. Jannetty gets an atomic drop onto Tully, but when Shawn enters the match in the confusion he misses a dropkick, but Shawn is able to get a hurricanrana on Arn and a double dropkick re-establish the Rockers on top. Shawn gives chase to Tully and Arn is lying in wait and Shawn eats a clothesline. The Busters double team and choke Michaels, but they are not zeroing in one body part. Shawn's punches look so much better here than in the 00s. The Busters are not doing much in the way of spots but they are following up on their advantage. Tully/Shawn do to the bridge into backslide sequence that I have always liked. Shawn must have been over the moon working with Tully and especially doing that sequence. Shawn does the leap for the tag, but Tully catches him and gives him a reverse atomic drop. AA follows up with a spinebuster for 2. AA does his knucklelock sequence and Shawn gets his knees up. They both tag out. Tully is hilarious begging off for Marty. The Rockers get the rocket launcher, but Arn saves. As Marty goes to suplex Tully, Arn grabs Marty leg out from under him and holds down his tassel as Tully gets the pin. That would also be the finish for Rude/ Warrior Wrestlemania V match. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Rockers vs The Brainbusters - 3/89 Boston This is the definitely worst match of the lot. Marty may be stoned out of his mind as he works in slow motion during this match and is also working the face in peril. The Rockers work a really deliberate pace, which surprises Tony Schiavone, always weird to hear him commentate on WWF matches and is quite boring. The beginning stuff with Shawn and Tully is pretty good as Tully amuses me. Tully armdrags Shawn and struts over to Arn to celebrate. Shawn armdrags Tully and he crawls to Marty's corner and bitches out. Arn comes in and they do some slugging both looking good. The Rockers do some synchronized dropkicks and Marty barley makes contact. They double hiptoss and double dropkick Arn and he needs up on his ass calling for a timeout. Funny stuff. Arn ends up hitting the post with his shoulder, which results in a long and boring heel in peril segment on Arn's arm. This Boston crowd is nothing like New York and is dead, but I dont blame them. I know Marty blew two spots, but I cant seem to recall what they were. They work Tully's arm and it just goes one. Synchronized figure-4s wake up the crowd and the heels break up with eye-rakes. This time Marty goes for headscissors only have his neck dropped across the rope. Tully hotshots him for go measure and there is plenty of choking to take away Marty's wind. At some point, AA thrusted his hips at Shawn, somebody missed Naitch a lot. All the focus is on Marty's neck. Arn does his knucklelock sequence, but this time he catches himself and parlays it into catapulting Marty into Tully's forearm. Marty does the leap for the tag spot. Marty starts piling on the hope spots with a flying bodypress for 2 and a sunste flip for 2. Jannetty even gets a vertical suplex so Tully punches Shawn, which distracts the ref and Arn dumps Marty over the top rope. Shawn gets the hot tag after Marty gets in some more punches. Shawn is not as good as Marty at the house of fire stuff. Shawn and AA end up outside brawling, but Rockers get back in hit the Rocket Launcher and just like MSG AA pulls out the ref for the DQ. This is the least of the matches as Marty was blowing spots and looked awful. Shawn looked pretty good, but was not as good as Marty as the hot tag. The Busters were a bit more focused in their heat segments and their antics were great, but were dragged down by that interminable heel in peril segment. I think the Rockers will end up being the best WWF Tag Team, but everyone can lay an egg. We will see how the SNME matches hold up. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Rockers vs The Brainbusters w/Bobby The Brain Heenan - 3/89 SNME What a sprint! I am out of breath just having watched this. This is the match I was really looking for from these guys. Busters blindside early. Tully goes for the kill with his slingshot suplex and Marty counters, but Tully counters into a rollup only for Shawn to cross body block Tully while in the rollup. Busters try to whip the Rockers into each other they do a little do-see-do and knock the Busters out. Crazy good opening sequence as Busters powder. Shawn press slams Arn off the top and it ends up with the Busters taking synchronized superkicks. Shawn hits a nice headscissors on Tully. Arn gets one shoulderblock on Shawn, but Shawn gets a drop toehold on the next one. Heenan pulls down the top rope, which gets him ejected of course he hems and haw to great crowd heat. Marty actually starts the next segment and Marty goes for the atomic drop, but while hoisted up Tully tags Arn. Arn comes in and smashes Marty. Marty bumps great for that. Marty playing a much more active face in peril. Arn dumps Marty over the top onto the floor. I love when Arn desperately tries to grasp for the ropes on a sunset flip attempt by Jannetty. Tully/Jannetty get to do the bridge/backslide/leap for tag/reverse atomic drop sequence that always looks good. Arn in with a wicked spinebuster and Shawn makes the save. Arn attempts a Vaderbomb attempt and eats knees. Both teams tag. Tully bitches out for Shawn, who does a much better job on this hot tag as the crowd is rocking. Shawn attempts a suplex on Arn, only for Tully to sunset flip Shawn and Arn to blast Shawn. Marty retaliates by diving on Tully. They end up on the floor where they back body drop Tully onto Arn. The result is a double countout. The Rockers get back in the ring and give both Busters a double dropkick for the symbolic victory. This was such a great sprint as it was bell-to-bell action that got over both tag teams to a national audience. The Rockers played a great high-energy tag team that could not be stopped until the Busters started using underhanded tactics. The Busters worked a tough, rugged style, but worked hard to put over the Rockers. They worked some very intricate sequences for the 80s and they came off great. My favorite match of theirs by far and one of the best 80s tag matches from the WWF. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Rockers vs The Brainbusters w/Bobby The Brain Heenan - 11/89 SNME 2 out of 3 Falls This is a pretty good match in the Rockers series. I would put it below the January MSG match and the barnburner 3/89 SNME match. There is dissension in the Heenan Family due to the Busters' loss of the tag belts and whether Heenan is meaningful to the success of the team. Marty gets wrist control and Tully tries to use some hair to get the advantage, but Marty keeps kipping up. Marty attempts a sunset flip, but Tully holds onto Arn and Shawn comes crashing down on Tully's back. The Rockers go up 1-0 quickly and Heenan is irate and berates the Busters. Heenan shoves Tully and realizes his mistake and powders. Rockers hit synchronized superkicks to start second fall and Heenan deserts his own tag team. Well soon he will fashion a new one out of his current clients in the form of the Colossal Connection. I am actually intrigued to watch some Colossal Connection matches. Rockers were really hit and miss with their double dropkick they did not always connect together, They were really good at the double kip-up. Lots of double teaming from the Rockers before Shawn gets dropped over the top rope on a headscissors. I like that transition spot so I dont mind seeing it 3 times, now. Tully gets pin to even it up. Marty tries to guard Shawn as he is gasping for breath. They clear Marty out and AA gets a wicked spinebuster for 2, but Marty saves. Arn does his knucklelock sequence and ends with Shawn being catapulted into Tully. Tully throws Shawn over the top rope onto the floor. Shawn is on jelly legs, but manages blocking being sent into the post on the apron. He hits a cross body block off the top for two. Arn in and he hits Marty to prevent tag. Marty punches Arn and his head rocks back and collides with Shawn's. That was a pretty well-done execution of that spot. Marty tags in after Shawn crawls under AA's legs. Marty is a house of fire, but gets caught by being outnumbered. Arn sets Marty up for the spike piledriver, but Shawn knocks Tully off the top and hits a cross body block off the top to win the match. This is the Brainbusters farewell as they finally put the Rockers over clean as fresh laundry. It was a fitting ending and pretty good much for the time allotted to it just under 10 minutes. I will say 2 out of 3 falls matches on SNME are a pet peeve of mine because multiple falls do not normally occur inside 10 minutes unless it is under these rules. It is the Rockers/Busters it is still a pretty good match.

#31 Superstar Sleeze

Superstar Sleeze
  • Members
  • 3151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 31 July 2013 - 07:35 AM

The Rockers vs Twin Towers - Wrestlemania V I thought I'd at least get all the Twin Towers match out of the way. As a complete match this is fine, but the finish to this is really friggin' good. Rockers try to turn this into a track meet so start by making the Towers chase them and Shawn hits a dropkick on Bossman. Once Akeem gets in, Shawn shows him up by doing a decent moonwalk. Shawn is my hero. I hate Akeem. Marty gets sandwhiched and Ventura's predictions look to be coming true as Marty is doinated by fat man offense like being trapped in the corner as they both splash him. Bossman holds Marty, but Akeem splashes Bossman. Marty crawls to Shawn. Shawn gets a dropkick and then punches in the corner. They double Irish Whip Akeem. They get double shoulderblocks from the middle rope for 2. Akeem kills Shawn dead with a clothesline. Apparently, you don't show up Bossman misses a top splash; Shawn gets 2. Marty tabletops Bossman; double dropkick to Akeem on the apron; both ascend to the top and double missile dropkick Bossman. Holy shit that was pretty cool. Akeem saves. Shawn off the top rope gets caught in a powerbomb by Bossman and a splash by Akeem finishes them. They were working the match I expected them to work and I was fine with that. Then they kicked into overdrive with that home stretch. That was some really good stuff and stuff that I do not think any other babyface tag team in the WWF could pull off. I would say it is stuff like that make it seem like the Rockers are the best WWF Tag team of all time.

#32 soup23

soup23
  • Moderators
  • 10258 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 31 July 2013 - 12:06 PM

I agree with your last paragraph and its why I enjoy watching the Rockers matches. They were willing to pinball vs. POP or Twin Towers, go technical with Arn/Tully to an extent, or work a fast paced junior style tag with the Orient Express. Great versatility sprinkled throughout their run.

#33 Sidebottom

Sidebottom
  • Members
  • 1119 posts

Posted 01 August 2013 - 03:15 PM

Glad to see Rockers / Demolition matches getting credit here, that was classic tag team wrestling.

#34 Superstar Sleeze

Superstar Sleeze
  • Members
  • 3151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 August 2013 - 11:22 PM

Soup, not to nitpick, but maybe go Southern is the way to put it with Arn & Tully. Dont forget getting schticky with the Rougueas :) The Rockers vs New Dream Team w/Jimmy Hart - 6/89 Rockers have taken over well for the Islanders as the team that just cant have a bad match. This is just good, solid tag team wrestler that is entertaining throughout. I was expecting a little bit more because I think The Hammer may be the best WWF worker of the 80s, but this settles in that good territory. Bravo is incredibly better when compared to Beefcake. He definitely has energy and I won't ever fault someone for that. The story of the match is as you expect Rockers' speed and continuity versus the strength of Bravo & ruggedness of Valentine. They establish Bravo is stronger than Marty so Marty blind tags Shawn, who dropkicks Bravo in the back into a Marty slam and then a slam for Valentine; Rockers clear the ring. Valentine gets in with Shawn and Demolition wishes they were this good at clubbering offense. Valentine works over Shawn's shoulder and rams it into the post. Shawn creates space and then rams The Hammer's shoulder into the ringpost. I love payback spots. This is a couple minutes of Rockers' targeting Valentine's arm it is well done, fast pace work that never delves into heel in peril. Valentine with a forearm shot tags in Bravo, who takes a monkey flip form Marty. On the second monkey flip, Bravo catches Marty and gives him a reverse atomic drop. Bravo then lets out what can only be described as the "Howard Dean Scream" as he tags in the Hammer. Marty is the face in peril as New Dream Team works over him in entertaining fashion. This heat segment was better than some of Busters' heat segment. They were constantly tagging out and never just settling for choking. Bravo hits a great gutwrench suplex. Bravo misses the elbow. The crowd pops huge. Shawn comes in a house of fire. Ducks punches and punches of his own and suplexes Bravo. Double dropkick on Bravo, dropkicks for everyone including the Mouth of the South. Double fistdrop from the top, but Valnetine breaks it up. Shawn & Dino bump heads; Valentine puts Bravo on top; Jannetty breaks it up. Jannety in as a reverse sunset flip and Valentine clothesline him as the ref detains Shawn so the New Dream Teams WINS?!?!?!?!?!??!? Wait Valentiner/Bravo won? They have not been a regular team since 1987. I just dont get it. It seems like The Rockers have been pushed hard to this point maybe Vince sees they will hit a ceiling since the Demos and Hart Foundation are also faces. I wish Valentine/Bravo got a serious push as the number 2 heel team. Fuckin' weird finish aside, it was a fun match which cut a brisk pace and everything was well-executed. The Rockers are definitely the best home stretch team in the WWF as that stuff was wicked entertaining to watch. Just watched The Rockers vs Rougeaus from London '89, but Im too tired to comment. In short, I fuckin loved that match. I have seen it before and really remember enjoying. I liked it just as much if not more. I have grown to love "less is more", but sometimes you just want to them throw the kitchen sink at you. Well, that match had pretty much every tag team trope stuffed in it and it fuckin ruled. I will say more tomorrow, but just loved it. I know it is a bit polarizing for all the bullshit at the beginning and propbably for cramming too much in. I didnt care because it had me smiling ear to ear for 25 minutes. Right up there with MX/RnRs Wrestlewar '90 in type of match that will just make me smile in any given situation. The Rockers vs Hart Foundation MSG 11/89 This match is equitable without trading spots back and forth with not rhyme or reason. If there is one thing that is Bret's bread and butter it is the face vs face matches. He is an incredible subtle heel. Most babyface vs babyfaces matches establish a sense of equality between the combatants. Heels are usually inferior in some way to their face counterpart which incites their underhanded tactics. Not to be disappointed, this match at the beginning is very symmetrical. Bret hits a move. Marty hits that move. Bret misses an elbow. Marty misses an elbow. So on and so forth, you can sense that brimming tension from experience you just are waiting for the Hart Foundation to get so frustrated they cheat. It is that tension that keeps you in suspense becuase just dont know when it is going to happen. Anvil actually has a really good sequence with Shawn. Shawn attempts to shoulderblock Anvil, but cant. He smartens up and tries a high cross body and Anvil catches him, but Shawn rolls through into a pinning combination. Once again, there is that sense of frustration. Anvil just needs to get a hold of this quick little bugger and Shawn is frustrated that Anvil is so much stronger that it creating such an obstacle. When Marty comes in, he gets steamrolled and Anvil feels like he finally go it. Then Marty hits a drop toe hold into a front facelock. Marty breathes a sigh of relief and Anvil is like "Fuck, again". Anvil gets frustrated tags out and Bret misses an elbow. Eventually Bret gets an atomic drop and he tags in Anvil. Finally, Bret has enough and he slides and buries the knee in Shawn's back while he is running the ropes, vintage Hart Foundation. It blows off Act One of the Tension. One thing I really like about this is that while it is super segmented like most Bret matches there is more of a sense of struggle. Shawn is not just a rag doll for the Harts he is fighting back and getting pinning combination of the Harts. He just cant get to his corner. Anvil is working the lower back with power holds and Bret is employing his usual crisp offense. Shawn is easily the best FIP they have ever had. This is the best Hart Foundation heat segment I have seen. Anvil misses the slingshot splash and they got me on that one.Instead, it was a missed elbow by Bret that gave SHawn the opportunity for tag to Marty. I didnt think the crowd was in step with Marty, but it was a good hot tag by Marty. He was focused on getting pinfalls as opposed to big spots, which I think fans are used to. Backslides, cross bodies, and sunset flips not vicious holds, but quick barrage to try win the match and again a lot of suspense. When Bret grabs with a double leg takedown and stomps him in the gut. Finally breaking the momentum of Marty. He sells the breather so well. It expresses "I weathered that storm. Damn that little fucker is fast". Bret ducks and Marty high cross bodies nothing but the concrete floor in a nasty bump. Marty tags out quickly. Shawn gets steamrolled by Anvil and bumps out of control for that one. Still only 2. Now standing dropkick by Shawn gets 2. It is just a barrage of nearfalls back and forth between Shawn and Bret. Shawn wrangles Bret into an abdominal stretch. Anvil comes in break this up and Marty is hot comes in shove Anvil. Bell rings signaling a draw. Both teams go at it, but mid card babyfaces come out to break it up. The tension comes to boiling point, but it is not allowed to spill over I think I talked by myself into liking this as my favorite Hart Foundation match. The Demolition match is close, but this one is a well-structured three Act play. You see the frustration that neither team can get the advantage, which ends with Bret burying the knee in Shawn's back. Act II is FIP, which has the usual tension of when will Shawn get the tag. Act III was a just a barrage of nearfalls where you were wondering who would get the duke and if maybe someone's temper would get the best of them. Instead we were robbed of a finish, but in a good way that made you want to see it climax later.

#35 Superstar Sleeze

Superstar Sleeze
  • Members
  • 3151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 04 August 2013 - 07:46 PM

Soup, I did not like the Rockers/Hart Foundation 2 Out of 3 Falls match as you, but I think your own love of that match will actually increase if you watch the MSG 11/89 between the two. Shawn Michaels vs Bret Hart 2/90 Wrestle Challenge The Anvil does the world's most clumsy job giving Bret's shades to a kid. I hope he was not the ring-bearer at anyone's wedding. They do some basic face vs face wrestling to prove they are equals. Bret busts out the sequence from their MSG match where Bret does a reverse atomic drop and hits a clothesline. Hey Bret misses an elbow too. Deja vu. Bret does his euro uppercuts into backslide sequence. Now they do Bret's backbreaker countered into a slam sequence. Bret is making Shawn look really good here, not a total knock on Shawn, but an observation. They fight over a vertical suplex in the ropes. Neither one wants to break. Shawn shoves Bret and Bret hits Shawn with a straight right. Marty gets on the apron and hits Bret with a straight right and it breaks down to a melee. It definitely presented an interesting angle on TV between two biggest face teams besides Demolition. At this point, the roster was way too babyface heavy and this shook things up. The Rockers vs Hart Foundation SNME 4/90 They basically work the sprint version of their MSG match, which hurts the feel of the match a lot. They are literally doing the same spots as the ones from the MSG match. If I am calling out Marty doing a drop toehold that's pretty pathetic. I had seen this match before because it was on the Bret Hart DVD and I always really like it, but now seeing the "complete" match from MSG, this took a huge hit from me. Since they are trying to get all the spots in, the match loses that tension that was building in the MSG match. Instead, they are just transitioning between spots with no breathe. Bret's sliding knee no longer feels like the climax to a great opening act to the match, but rather just another move. Now if they constructed new spots and created a new match for their sprint then I would judge it on its merits. Instead, it is just the clipped down version of the MSG match. For example, Rockers/Busters matches for the most part seemed unique. Of course, the big change in this match and the MSG match is the appearance of Demolition. Bret gets distracted first and Shawn dropkicks Bret to the outside and Demolition acts like lumberjacks. Marty's hot tag is pretty much the same though Anvils misses his slingshot splash here instead of the heat segment. They do the Anvil tossing Shawn onto outside when he kicks out as the spot to lead to Demolition getting involved. They look to send Shawn back in, but Marty, ever the hot-head, punches Ax. The match breaks down into a melee. Having seen the "full" version, this match seems like a let-down. As a sprint, it is fun because they cram a ridiculous amount of spots into the match, but less is more in this situation. I would put this firmly behind the Rockers/ Busters SNME sprint. The Rockers vs Hart Foundation - 2 Out of 3 Falls 10/90 I feel like I should watch this again because it was late at night and my brother watched it with me. Normally, I watch these matches by myself with undivided attention, but my brother, who I enjoy watching RAW with often has a lot of questions, which distracts me. Though he did point how dead the crowd was. I thought this match was overly long. Usually the SNME 2 out of 3 Falls match are like 10 minutes, which bothers me to end. So I was happy in that this match went a more appropriate length given the stipulation however I felt like they lost the story of the match after the rope break and just started throwing things out there, which made it feel long. First good thing as this was not a carbon copy of the MSG, which makes sense as this is the direct continuation of their SNME match and it feels like the continuation. You have spots where the wrestlers are learning from each other. The Rockers double team Bret, but duck the Anvil's clothesline and hit a double superkick. Bret still gets them with a double noggin knocker and Anvil hits his double clothesline. I marked pretty hard for the Rockers' duck and at that point, I thought this match was going to be pretty great. Marty is then tentative to go toe to toe with Anvil. He knows that Anvil usually steam rolls him so he gets started then hooks the ropes. Rockers end up on top with a double dropkick. The Rockers are learning from their mistakes and the Hart Foundation is not adapting. Rockers really get the best of the Hart Foundation with their double team moves. They double Irish Whip Anvil into the ropes knocking Bret off the apron. A double bodyslam should set up the double fist drop, but Bret breaks it up. Anvil gets the Oklahoma Slam on Shawn and Shawn does the Flair Flip in the corner. Bret gets frustrated after a nice series of moves: backbreaker, Russian Leg Sweep and a piledriver. This allows Shawn to tag Marty and Marty sits down on a Bret sunset flip to get 3. The first fall was incredible. The Rockers looked smart. They learned from the previous encounter and kept the Hart Foundation off balance. Once, Bret got into a groove he thought he had the fall won and then the Rockers pulled it out and he was fuckin pissed, really well-done. Bret is right on the attack as he is hot over the ending to the fall that he thought he had in hand. Bret and Marty really jockey for position on a suplex. They double team Bret again, but Anvil clears the ring with just his presence. Bret then sits in a front facelock, which my brother points out is boring. I have to agree. At some point, the top rope breaks by Marty. Bret gets wicked flustered slapping on a chinlock as you can see him trying to figure out what to do. Bret then takes the bump of the match as he takes his usual front-first bump into the turnbuckles, but only the bottom two and it looked sick. Marty's superkick gets two, but Bret hits a swinging neckbreaker for 2. Bret bodyslams Anvil on top, which brother thought was pretty cool. Hart Foundation hit Demolition Decapitation for 2 and Shawn breaks up a Rocket Launcher. Bret hits a belly to back suplex, which sets up the Hart Attack to pick up the fall. I think if they cut out the beginning of this fall and just had the Hart Foundation pour it out it would have been better. The rope breaking made some of the spots look very awkward. Ring crew fixes the ropes. Hart Foundation gets the sliding knee in here and Anvil hits a back body drop. Bret is pressing the advantage with European uppercuts, but no backslide by Marty. Instead, Bret cross bodies the ropes, a dangerous proposition given that the ropes had just broken. At this point, I thought they just started throwing things out there as they sort of take turns hitting spots. I think the idea of was to create drama with both teams trading blows and never knowing when the match would stop. I just thought this looked too choreographed and they did not transition well between spots. Bret matches usually have good logical progression and the first two falls show that, but not the final fall. The final sequence sees Anvil suplexing Bret onto Marty's knees. Yet, Anvil clears the ring and they look to hit Hart Attack Shawn interrupts and Marty gets the pin. It just seemed like a mess as you have the Rockers injuring Bret, but the Anvil reclaims control only for Shawn to intervene. I just thought the match overstayed its welcome and plus the rope problems make this a disappointing match as the first fall started off so promising. Actually the first fall by itself would have been a classic match. The two additional falls dragged it down as they lost that fell that this match was a continuation instead they just started throwing things out there. The Rockers vs Hart Foundation Tokyo Dome 3/91 See Rockers vs Hart Foundation MSG 11/89. They basically do the same match verbatim only performed worse and with a finish. The Dome is not feeling this match and there is pretty much zero heat for this. The Rockers looked stoned. Bret looks wicked sick and very pale. Neither team seems very into match and just do the same spots from the MSG 89 match with no passion. The only difference is Hart Foundation add some attacks to heel it up a bit more, but to no avail the whole match feels perfunctory. The finish is that Bret rolls through Shawn's cross body and is able to get the win this time. Ostensibly because Bret was more over in Japan than the Rockers since he has worked there. Watch the 11/89 MSG match.

#36 Migs

Migs
  • Members
  • 1072 posts

Posted 15 August 2013 - 04:27 PM

I watched 11 discs worth of Rockers matches a while back, and came away thinking that they are a bit underrated. I think they had good matches consistently and also were better at keeping matchups fresh than, say the Hart Foundation. Love the Harts but they would legit go out and do the same match, move for move, on a nightly basis (see their Rougeau matches from 88). The Rockers were really good at varying things. The matches with the Brainbusters are probably my favorite WWF tag matches of the 80s, maybe even better than Harts-Bulldogs in 85, which are incredible.

#37 Superstar Sleeze

Superstar Sleeze
  • Members
  • 3151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 15 August 2013 - 07:35 PM

I have to say the Hart Foundation vs Rockers matches were very much the same match over and over that save for the 10/90 match. This is true for a lot of 80s wrestling, which is why I dont watch the MSG, Boston and Philly matches from the same period. I will just choose one of the three. I try to watch the continuation of feud rather just all the matches. The Hart Foundation/Bulldogs came off really underwhelming to me. If you care to further discuss them I be interested. I really liked the first SNME match between the Busters and Rockers, but the rest of stuff felt just good rather than great. My favorite programs have been the Islanders vs Strike Force and Dream Team vs British Bulldogs. I have not found a Rockers program I was really into yet, but they really only had Busters (early 1989), Rougeaus (rest of 89), Hart Foundation (late 89-early 90), Orient Express (90-91) and Nasty Boys (Mid-Late'91) then done. The rest was just a series of one-offs. I believe the Rockers are the best tag team of the WWF and I am looking forward to the OX & Nasties stuff. However, even though they are a lot better than the Bulldogs or the Dream Team in my opinion, they never achieved a really great program from what I have seen so far. I think they peaked with the Busters, but it never quite got it where I wanted it to.

#38 Migs

Migs
  • Members
  • 1072 posts

Posted 16 August 2013 - 10:25 AM

I have to say the Hart Foundation vs Rockers matches were very much the same match over and over that save for the 10/90 match. This is true for a lot of 80s wrestling, which is why I dont watch the MSG, Boston and Philly matches from the same period. I will just choose one of the three. I try to watch the continuation of feud rather just all the matches.

The Hart Foundation/Bulldogs came off really underwhelming to me. If you care to further discuss them I be interested. I really liked the first SNME match between the Busters and Rockers, but the rest of stuff felt just good rather than great. My favorite programs have been the Islanders vs Strike Force and Dream Team vs British Bulldogs. I have not found a Rockers program I was really into yet, but they really only had Busters (early 1989), Rougeaus (rest of 89), Hart Foundation (late 89-early 90), Orient Express (90-91) and Nasty Boys (Mid-Late'91) then done. The rest was just a series of one-offs. I believe the Rockers are the best tag team of the WWF and I am looking forward to the OX & Nasties stuff. However, even though they are a lot better than the Bulldogs or the Dream Team in my opinion, they never achieved a really great program from what I have seen so far. I think they peaked with the Busters, but it never quite got it where I wanted it to.


I definitely think they peaked, program-wise, with the Busters. (I think you covered all of them save for an okay run of matches with Power and Glory.) The Orient Express stuff was sometimes very good, other times a bit flat.

I'd argue the variation in the matches is part of what makes Rockers-Busters fun - some of the matches, like the SNME one, are completely different, and even the house show matches would go in different directions (they had 2 in the same day at Boston and MSG with different FIP sections and with one being 5 minutes longer).

I'd have to rewatch the Harts-Bulldogs matches to really go deep, but I think what set them apart from other 80s WWF tags was the quality of the offense, and the way the structure tended to be a bit more free form. 80s WWF tag wrestling was VERY formulaic, so even slight deviations feel pretty good. They were just so far ahead of the other teams at the time that it's sort of stunning to watch. I do like the matches with the Dream Team too, though, as Valentine was one of the only other guys on the roster who could keep up with the Bulldogs. Has anyone ever done a Dream Team comp? I'd be curious to see more of them... there's an amazing match they had with Santana and Steamboat that made me wonder if they're a bit of a lost great team.

#39 MartelFan38

MartelFan38
  • Members
  • 26 posts

Posted 08 September 2013 - 11:21 AM

I have to say the Hart Foundation vs Rockers matches were very much the same match over and over that save for the 10/90 match. This is true for a lot of 80s wrestling, which is why I dont watch the MSG, Boston and Philly matches from the same period. I will just choose one of the three. I try to watch the continuation of feud rather just all the matches.

The Hart Foundation/Bulldogs came off really underwhelming to me. If you care to further discuss them I be interested. I really liked the first SNME match between the Busters and Rockers, but the rest of stuff felt just good rather than great. My favorite programs have been the Islanders vs Strike Force and Dream Team vs British Bulldogs. I have not found a Rockers program I was really into yet, but they really only had Busters (early 1989), Rougeaus (rest of 89), Hart Foundation (late 89-early 90), Orient Express (90-91) and Nasty Boys (Mid-Late'91) then done. The rest was just a series of one-offs. I believe the Rockers are the best tag team of the WWF and I am looking forward to the OX & Nasties stuff. However, even though they are a lot better than the Bulldogs or the Dream Team in my opinion, they never achieved a really great program from what I have seen so far. I think they peaked with the Busters, but it never quite got it where I wanted it to.


I definitely think they peaked, program-wise, with the Busters. (I think you covered all of them save for an okay run of matches with Power and Glory.) The Orient Express stuff was sometimes very good, other times a bit flat.

I'd argue the variation in the matches is part of what makes Rockers-Busters fun - some of the matches, like the SNME one, are completely different, and even the house show matches would go in different directions (they had 2 in the same day at Boston and MSG with different FIP sections and with one being 5 minutes longer).

I'd have to rewatch the Harts-Bulldogs matches to really go deep, but I think what set them apart from other 80s WWF tags was the quality of the offense, and the way the structure tended to be a bit more free form. 80s WWF tag wrestling was VERY formulaic, so even slight deviations feel pretty good. They were just so far ahead of the other teams at the time that it's sort of stunning to watch. I do like the matches with the Dream Team too, though, as Valentine was one of the only other guys on the roster who could keep up with the Bulldogs. Has anyone ever done a Dream Team comp? I'd be curious to see more of them... there's an amazing match they had with Santana and Steamboat that made me wonder if they're a bit of a lost great team.



#40 MartelFan38

MartelFan38
  • Members
  • 26 posts

Posted 08 September 2013 - 11:22 AM

At what point do we need to go the other way with the Rockers and start calling them overrated? Granted they were excellent in the ring, but from a Kayfabe standpoint, what did they ever accomplish, especially once they entered the WWF. I know this will be contreversial but I'd think about it.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users