Nick Bockwinkel

[Phil Schneider]

Yeah pretty sure that was just one of my talking points which no one agreed with.

[Matt D]

I can't keep track of you people and your god damn talking points from six years ago. Especially when you're not even putting out numbered pamphlets anymore. I have a hard enough time keeping track of my own that no one wants to engage me on.

[jdw]

I like Race and see Race as Angle as an overblown criticism. I also agree with OJ that the matches with Hogan are very good. On the other thing Race is very much a "get his shit in" at all cost type of wrestler. Sometimes that helps a match dramatically and can even make a nothing match on paper a lot of fun (thinking Race v. Rich from GAB 90 here). Sometimes that can have the effect of hampering a match. I will say that while I liked the Blackwell v. Race match I recently watched, I thought Blackwell was the star of it - but you could argue this was Harley toward the end of his run as a great wrestler and one match samples aren't terribly meaningful.

I don't think Harley was obsessive or insistent that he "got his shit in" with all or more matches. Seemed to depend on the opponent. The Backlund match was very much in Touring NWA Champ mode, with Bob the "hometown star" who largely kicked the living shit out of the NWA Champ and "beat" him in the end. Harley left so much in his holster that it's not even funny, and really makes you wonder what would have happened if the two had a match in Japan at say that all star multi-promotional card in 1979. In other words, something in a ring where they'd work 60/40 rather than the 80/20 that they did in MSG.

 

I've seen others where Harley was like that. In turn, there are plenty of matches where Harley "did his shit" (which can get pretty moves-centric), and let the opponent do all his shit. Often times a chunk of the face's shit was actually Harley's shit, similar to Flair bringing his own set of "spots" to the table that are actually for the face to do and look strong (such as Flair loving to eat Gorilla Presses). Bumpers like Flair and Race tended to have a lot of crap like that.

 

Anyway, the reason this sticks out to me is that I've seen matches where I wanted Harley to get more of his shit in.

 

John

[goodhelmet]

I can't keep track of you people and your god damn talking points from six years ago. Especially when you're not even putting out numbered pamphlets anymore. I have a hard enough time keeping track of my own that no one wants to engage me on.

You have numbered pamphlets?

[Matt D]

They had numbered pamphlets. I have talking points.

 

You have quite wonderful comps.

 

I also get your opinions mixed up with Charles' and John's all the time. Sorry. This is a fast-paced, high impact world of wrestling discussion.

[goodhelmet]

I was joking. Forgot the emoticon.

 

I have engaged you on your talking points before. We just kept talking over each other. We also look for different things in our wrestling. There is no way to reconcile that.

[Matt D]

I'm sure that won't keep us from doing it in the future.

[Loss]

We can have the argument over and over forever as long as I'm concerned. The difference of opinion is the starting point for conversation, not the end of it.

[JerryvonKramer]

Eaton used it as a slingshot move, no?

Bobby Eaton is the only guy I've seen with at least 3 different backbreaker variations, this would be a 4th.

[goodhelmet]

We can have the argument over and over forever as long as I'm concerned. The difference of opinion is the starting point for conversation, not the end of it.

It depends. Sometimes what we value in wrestling is so fundamentally different that the argument isn't worth having.

[JerryvonKramer]

As I'm working through 83 of the AWA set, I've noticed a recurring pattern in Bock matches of him being a bitch champ. vs. Martel, vs. Rheinngans, vs. Hogan he gets almost nothing.

 

His stretches on top, if and when they do happen are short.

 

For 2 of those matches, compared to most other commentors, I have been relatively down on them.

 

I distinctly recall someone making the case somewhere that Flair was "more" of a bitch than Bock was. On this evidence, I can't see that.

 

What I've been struck by is just how dominant the face opponents are in the Bock matches. The Hogan match from 83 is the only one with a good explaination and I like it a lot. Martel and Rhenngans though, I'd expect a lot more from the champ.

 

Two questions:

 

1. What are some examples of Bock working on top for extended periods?

 

2. Was there any discernable change in his style between the 70s and 80s? I mean, I can buy the idea that by 1983 he's just older, that he'd lost a step and was not as on top of his game as he used to be, so he's going to spend a lot of time getting his ass kicked and going to have to rely on dirty tricks and playing the rules to worm out of losing the title. That would make sense if he was booked stronger in the 70s.

 

There are some things about AWA I'm finding very hard to understand. Verne books himself as superman against Blackwell, but the champion can't get a 6-7 minute stretch sequence going against any of his opponents? I don't get it.

 

I don't recall Flair looking as weak as Bock does in those matches, not even in that first match against Luger in 88. I know people here disagree with that assessment and I'd love to know why.

[Dylan Waco]

Bock v. Rheingans was a match meant to build Rheingans as a legit challenger. It was a studio draw and the goal was to make him look like someone who could beat Bock. In many respects it was Bock as Flair (see Bock v. David Schultz from Stampede for another clear example of this). To an extent one could say the same thing about the first Martel challenge, though I don't remember it being nearly as egregious in that match. The Hogan match is self explanatory.

 

There were Bock matches on the set before those. Love them or hate them I don't think you can make the claim that Bock was swallowed whole in those matches. Maybe the Verne match I guess, but Verne isn't a guy who sells for anyone for very long at that point.

 

I've never seen Bock give a George South ten minutes to put him on the ropes and work near falls. Not saying it doesn't exist but I haven't seen it. Bock could be a wuss - no question about it. But I don't think it was an established norm of his style and I don't think that is reflected on the set at all.

 

In this thread alone I've pointed to matches where he works control segments and leads from on top. Not hard to find them really.

[JerryvonKramer]

Is "Bock as Flair" being fair to Flair for those matches though?

[khawk20]

Is "Bock as Flair" being fair to Flair for those matches though?

I wouldn't think of it in terms of "fair", more in terms of a comparable that makes for an easy visual. Whether you agree with it or not you can see what he's saying.

[JerryvonKramer]

Of course I can see what he's saying. I guess my general criticism would be that Bock comes across as too weak when he's doing a Flair, in a way that Flair doesn't.

 

You've seen more Bock than anyone khawk, is that true?

[khawk20]

Of course I can see what he's saying. I guess my general criticism would be that Bock comes across as too weak when he's doing a Flair, in a way that Flair doesn't.

 

You've seen more Bock than anyone khawk, is that true?

I don't think so, personally. I've always seen Bockwinkel as more "foiled" than "weak" when he can't get any offense in, or his opponent is dominating him.

 

As a compatriot of the ever-cowardly Bobby heenan, this is almost expected behavior in some respects.

[Matt D]

I think that he also had different aims in a different territory than Flair. To me, the AWA booking from 80-83 or so seemed very reluctant to actually put heat on the heels and it rather celebrated the babyfaces, all while having a heel champ and a lot of bs finishes.

 

Bock, to me, is a guy who knows what he wants to accomplish as a worker in almost every match I've seen him in and then he goes out and accomplishes that.

 

For instance, in the Ladd match, he comes in to make Ladd look like a monster, to beg off and be afraid, to come back with really measured leg attacks and then with chokes/nerve holds that'll be fierce enough and brutal enough and even cheap enough to piss Ladd off enough that he gets suckered into the finished. Bock comes out of the match looking smart enough to goad the monster but the crowd knows that he escaped by the skin of his teeth. Ladd comes out looking like a righteous monster and the crowd knows that if he ever gets another shot at Bock there's a great chance he's coming out with the belt.

[Dylan Waco]

Of course I can see what he's saying. I guess my general criticism would be that Bock comes across as too weak when he's doing a Flair, in a way that Flair doesn't.

 

You've seen more Bock than anyone khawk, is that true?

 

I love both guys but I don't buy this.

 

Flair came across as almost comedic in getting his ass kicked by middling guys and jobbers at points.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think we're definitely on different sides of this one. To me it always seems that Flair is cocky, gets surprised, and then either snaps and takes out the midcarder/jobber or calls the boys in.

 

Either way, and I've seen a lot of Flair in those sorts of matches over the past year, there comes a point when he seems to say "enough of this shit now, I'm the man". The typical example is the Sam Houston match, but Will's 4 Horsemen set is full of these matches.

 

Ok, from one point of view it's almost farcical that he's giving Italian Stallion or fucking Rocky King shine time, on the other at the end of the day he kicks their ass.

 

In bigger card settings, he does similar things with more underdoggish opponents like Morton and Jimmy Garvin.

 

If you can point me to Flair matches against obvious "lower" opponents where that moment doesn't come, point me to them. I haven't seen one. (NB. Pointing to WWF matches from 92 would be cheating, strictly NWA).

 

With those particular Bock matches, there doesn't come a point where he snaps. And the net result to me is that he feels bitched out.

 

I say that though I've just watched him go toe to toe with Wahoo and I've got a match paused right now where he's beating the shit out of Maddog Vachon.

 

I like THIS Bock and I like that he has different dimensions. I just haven't liked his bitch champ performances so much.

[Dylan Waco]

There is a major flaw with this line of thinking.

 

Brad Rheingans and Rick Martel aren't Sam Houston or Italian Stallion.

[JerryvonKramer]

They are Ricky Morton or Jimmy Garvin or Ron Garvin though.

[goodhelmet]

I made the same argument at DVDVR. Rheingans was being built as a strong up and comer. Don't know what happened in the end to his push.

[Dylan Waco]

They are Ricky Morton or Jimmy Garvin or Ron Garvin though.

I have seen matches where Flair gets out wrestled and dominated by pending challengers before.

[KrisZ]

I made the same argument at DVDVR. Rheingans was being built as a strong up and comer. Don't know what happened in the end to his push.

Brad had injury issues often.

[JerryvonKramer]

They are Ricky Morton or Jimmy Garvin or Ron Garvin though.

I have seen matches where Flair gets out wrestled and dominated by pending challengers before.

 

Which ones? I can honestly only think of Luger at GAB 88. And that had the same basic story as Hogan vs. Bock 83 -- Flair had been ducking Luger for months. Although admittedly Luger was not insane over like Hogan was.

 

I have complained plenty of times that I think Flair is giving too much to opponents -- that Jimmy Garvin match, for example, before the leg injury happens to Garvin, he is kicking.Flair's.Ass. And not just Garvin on top, he's properly killing Flair.

 

I did have that problem with it. To me though, it's kind of forgiven by the turn around at the end.

 

If you can point to many more examples when it's Flair getting very little to nothing then I'm happy to say that he was as guilty of it as Bock ...

 

In fact, the only other one that springs to mind is years later when he's against Hogan in 94. There's one of those matches where Hogan just eats him. I'm not a fan of that match at all.