Little questions thread

[Log]

Call Buck "yellow". See what happens.

[Steve Gennarelli]

Zacko was a long time friend of Bruno's.

 

He immigrated to the US from Syria and felt a comraderie with Bruno who was also an immigrant.

 

According to a recent Bruno interview, it was Zacko who planted a bug in Bruno's ear not to take part in the NWA/WWWF title

unification. Phil tipped Bruno off to the fact that he'd never see his young family if he took the offer.

 

The Race/Sammartino match in St Louis was huge in the Apter magazines back in the day.

 

Funny thing about the tag bout with Race/Robley vs. Bruno/Baba...Bruno didn't really take many bumps after his neck injury, but

it looks like he forgot to tell Harley who took him up for a Suplex during the match.

[Boon]

This WWf stuff is very interesting and not something I've read before. Does anyone know if there are any Expansion threads anywhere in the board? It's something I'd like to read more about...

[Ricky Jackson]

This WWf stuff is very interesting and not something I've read before. Does anyone know if there are any Expansion threads anywhere in the board? It's something I'd like to read more about...

You could start with this one http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=11633

[Boon]

This WWf stuff is very interesting and not something I've read before. Does anyone know if there are any Expansion threads anywhere in the board? It's something I'd like to read more about...

You could start with this one http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=11633

 

Thanks man...

[Matt D]

Mid-South's failure due to the oil crisis? The MEGATREND as Watts calls it.

 

Is that face-saving myth or is it true?

[jackwebb]

Has there ever been a tag team match that ended with a wrestler submitting his partner? Seems like something that could have been done during a heel turn at one point.

[JerryvonKramer]

Another little question that's been bugging me: what's the name of the signiture Bossman spot where the opponent is hanging over the bottom rope and he comes and jumps ontop of the back of the neck with his leg?

 

Ivan Koloff and Maddog Vachon also do this spot. What is its name?

 

EDIT: I never thought of checking Wiki, but apparently its called a "Leapfrog body guillotine" -- although that description has the attacker sliding out of the ring too (which Bossman often did and then he'd uppercut them in the face). The Ivan Koloff / Vachon spot is slightly different in that they put both legs over and jump ass first on the neck / upper back and didn't go outside after it.

[jdw]

There's little doubt that Gorilla ended up getting way more than $100K since he continued to be employed in a major way for years.

I've read, quite a few times, that Gorilla's deal wasn't just $100k + employment, it was that plus the equivalent of an opener's appearance fee and a half for EVERY show WWF promoted. Considering we know they were doing up to 5 shows a day, that's quite a lot of appearance fees if true.

 

Then again, probably peanuts compared to what Gorilla would have made with his 12.5% intact.

It's Pro Wrestling. I don't believe at all that Gorilla was getting a cut from the company like that. I also suspect the "$100K" was more likely rolled into the employment, or handled in the most beneficial fashion for taxes.

 

 

You'd think Race would be able to find a better partner knowing he was going up against Bruno and Baba.

It's a non-tv taping, which has matches like this. Buck was in there to job.

My comment was kayfabe.

Look up booking across Japanese series. Guys have partners who are there to do the job regularly. Kayfabe is "that's how it's booked tonight", as it had been for decades in Japan. It really isn't one to over think. It's also one of the problems of Best Of sets: while doing a great job of getting the great and/or important stuff in front of people, it does give a false impression on the totality of the booking (and of course the consistent quality of the workers).

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

The story about Monsoon's pay deal has found its way to enough places for me to believe it. Why don't you believe it?

[jdw]

This WWf stuff is very interesting and not something I've read before. Does anyone know if there are any Expansion threads anywhere in the board? It's something I'd like to read more about...

You could start with this one http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=11633

 

Thanks man...

 

It's a massive thread with massive data dumps in it. Carve out some time for it rather than heading over when you only have 10 minutes.

 

John

[khawk20]

Has anyone ever traced back/figured out who the first user of the "Cobra Clutch" was? Vachon was using it as AWA Champion in 1966 and I doubt he invented it.

[JerryvonKramer]

jdw - here are some links to Gorilla payment deal stuff:

 

http://www.infinitecore.ca/superstar/index...?threadid=73175

 

http://www.infinitecore.ca/superstar/index...?threadid=77886

 

Meltzer in the Tribues II book: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=00XoU40...C&q=gorilla

 

Marella was eventually bought out by Vince McMahon Jr. but in return got a 10-year contract that gave him an announcing job and 1.5 times preliminary money for every WWF show, even though he never had to leave his home, which turned out to be very lucrative. If you figure prelim in that era were doing $2,000 per week, figure 1.5 times that, multiplied by three house shows per night, and you realise he had huge money years after selling the company when Titan flourished in its 80s heyday.

Frustratingly, Meltzer doesn't cite a source on that, but he must have been reasonably convinced of it to include it in the obit and then again in the book.

 

What makes you so sure it's not true jdw?

[jdw]

The story about Monsoon's pay deal has found its way to enough places for me to believe it. Why don't you believe it?

The story of Vince taking wrestling out of smoke filed arenas has found its way into even more places. It's bullshit.

 

It's pro wrestling. Everything is a lie unless you can document it with clear factual proof. It's always been that way, and it's usually best to keep it in the front of one's mind when reading wrestling "facts" rather than in the back.

 

John

 

"We've got standing room only here in the Garden."

-Gorilla lying even though the fans at home can see empty seats

[BrickHithouse]

It's pro wrestling. Everything is a lie unless you can document it with clear factual proof.

Not to change the subject, but that is a great setup for...

 

Even clear photographic evidence that shows it's impossible that only 78k were in attendance at WMIII, the response is still "Yeah, but some douchebag told Meltzer that there were only 78k", yet no one can point to 10-12,00 empty fucking seats that would make that number possible.

 

I'm in the process of counting individual people that were there that day and will post a thread with the findings as a "fuck you" to anyone that believes the 78k number. About the only thing involving wrestling that gets me wound up.

 

Afterwards I'll check into a nice outpatient clinic.

[jdw]

jdw - here are some links to Gorilla payment deal stuff:

 

http://www.infinitecore.ca/superstar/index...?threadid=73175

 

http://www.infinitecore.ca/superstar/index...?threadid=77886

 

Meltzer in the Tribues II book: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=00XoU40...C&q=gorilla

 

Marella was eventually bought out by Vince McMahon Jr. but in return got a 10-year contract that gave him an announcing job and 1.5 times preliminary money for every WWF show, even though he never had to leave his home, which turned out to be very lucrative. If you figure prelim in that era were doing $2,000 per week, figure 1.5 times that, multiplied by three house shows per night, and you realise he had huge money years after selling the company when Titan flourished in its 80s heyday.

Frustratingly, Meltzer doesn't cite a source on that, but he must have been reasonably convinced of it to include it in the obit and then again in the book.

 

What makes you so sure it's not true jdw?

 

Do the math.

 

Prelim working in that era makes $2K a week * 52 weeks = $104K a year.

 

"Prelim" in the sense of Mike Sharpe? Lanny Poffo? Guys who worked prelims all over the country?

 

Okay... that doesn't pass the laugh test. We went over the list of guys on the roster, which included roughly 20 JTTS. Does anyone think that WWF was passing out $40K a week ($2.08M a year) to *those* guys?

 

So if not them, where is the cut off line for JTTS? It's laughable.

 

Then look at Gorilla. Setting aside his announcing deal, which wasn't small, do the math on what he'd get:

 

$2K per week * 1.5 * 3 cards a day * 52 weeks = $468K per year * 10 years = $4.68M

 

Yeah... doesn't pass the laugh test.

 

Gorilla may have talked that up, and others within the WWF may have talked it up... but this is "Savage Banged Steph" level of stupidity.

 

John

[jdw]

It's pro wrestling. Everything is a lie unless you can document it with clear factual proof.

Not to change the subject, but that is a great setup for...

 

Even clear photographic evidence that shows it's impossible that only 78k were in attendance at WMIII, the response is still "Yeah, but some douchebag told Meltzer that there were only 78k", yet no one can point to 10-12,00 empty fucking seats that would make that number possible.

 

I'm in the process of counting individual people that were there that day and will post a thread with the findings as a "fuck you" to anyone that believes the 78k number. About the only thing involving wrestling that gets me wound up.

 

Afterwards I'll check into a nice outpatient clinic.

 

Yeah, the 78K is a classic one. Dave's fall back to it was that the NFL worked the attendance numbers for the Super Bowl there. That got a big laugh out of me.

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

Do you not think there's a danger of having the attitude that "since everything in wrestling is a work, nothing is true and can possible be true"?

 

In the context of Gorilla selling his share of the company, those figures are not outrageous. Not compared with what he would have been getting if he was getting a 12.5% of all profits.

 

I respect the need for a healthy scepticism, but some aspect of that Gorilla story must be true. You don't think Monsoon was a millionaire by the time the 80s were over? Just to play devil's advocate here, where's your evidence to back that up?

[sek69]

Mid-South's failure due to the oil crisis? The MEGATREND as Watts calls it.

 

Is that face-saving myth or is it true?

 

The guy from Houston (drawing a blank on the name) who did an interview with Meltzer pretty much shot this down by saying it was just the end of the territories and the oil crisis at best maybe shaved a year or two off the inevitable.

 

You figure that was around 1986-1987, it was pretty clear how things were going to go down for anyone not the WWF by that point.

[ZThomas]

Can Wrestling Culture Podcast do a show on Curt Hennig?

[jdw]

Do you not think there's a danger of having the attitude that "since everything in wrestling is a work, nothing is true and can possible be true"?

I think there's a danger in taking what wrestlers say on face value. So you need to look at it and see if it makes sense.

 

$2000 a week for "prelim wrestlers" in the mid-80s Expansion Era is a fucking joke. Clearly Dave meant some other level of wrestler, since "prelim wrestlers" weren't making $104K a year.

 

 

In the context of Gorilla selling his share of the company, those figures are not outrageous. Not compared with what he would have been getting if he was getting a 12.5% of all profits.

Gorilla sold his shares in the WWF in 1983 before expansion. You're saying that the value of 12.5% of the company in 1983 was:

 

$4.68M + $100K + Gorilla's Employment Income for 10 years

 

On the last one, let's just estimate it at $150K a year. Perhaps that's high, and I doubt Tony was making that much from Crockett, but over time Gorilla's workload expanded to include All-Star/Challenge, Primetime, taking over the MSG cards from Vince, adding the Spectrum gig, the Boston Garden gig, various PPVs, and various CHV assignments in the 10 years covered by the employment contract. I'd say an average of $150K might not be out of the question, especially if the employment contract called him to be paid $X per broadcasting assignment.

 

So that's another $1.5M.

 

The total "cost" to Vince of buying out Gorilla was $6.28M for "12.5%" of the company. That values the worth of the company in 1983 at $50.24M.

 

I highly doubt the value of the company was that high. Nor that Vince would broker a deal that was that high for Gorilla's 12.5% when he only paid "$100K" for Zacko's.

 

Beyond that, if he had 87.5% of the company, it's not the difficult to spin out the valuable pieces and leave Gorilla with nothing. More than that, it's not that hard to take the "expansion" aspects of the company (i.e.), dump them in a new company 100% owned by Vince, and firewall Gorilla's 12.5%. In other words, leave all the Old WWF Territory Revenue in "Capital" and put all of the New WWF Expansion Revenue into Titan. That would be money from the new cities being run, closed circuit / PPV, CHV, Merchandise, Ice Cream Bars, licensing (actions figures and the like), etc, etc, etc. So that "1.5 Prelim Money x Every Card" would be limited to just the cards in the Old WWF Territory, not Los Angeles, or Chicago, or Detroit, etc. You'd also limit the number of jobs you give Gorilla under the Employment Agreement, and if he was valuable, carve them into a new one. All contracts for performers would be with Titan, which in turn would "license" the appearances to "Old WWF, Inc." and "New WWF, Inc."... and isn't that awesome: part of the "cost" of running an Old WWF, Inc. show would not just be paying the talent, but also paying Titan a "agency fee" for allowing the performer to work MSG. Since Vince owned Titan 100%, that would be a fee going right into his pockets... reducing the profits of Old WWF, Inc.

 

All the assets of Old WWF, Inc. could slowly be eliminated due to "obsolescence". In other words, Gorilla's famous MSG Ring could be done away with because Titan set new guidelines for the rings to be used in all WWF Brand shows run by both Old WWF and New WWF. Who owns those new rings and cages and announcers tables and canvas and ropes, etc? Titan, which in turn "rents" or "leases" them to Old WWF and New WWF. The production equipment? Same thing: standardized under new Titan guidelines.

 

House show tapings? Titan moves them all out of the Old WWF region into New WWF cities.

 

"WWF Syndication"? The old shows are eliminated and replaced by "national" shows, which of course would be run out of Titan, and "licensed" out to New WWF and Old WWF.

 

This is pretty standard business. Vince is a smart man. This is easy to do. Vince would own 87.5% of Old WWF, all of the talent, all of the equipment, all of the production, everything.

 

You get where this is going, right?

 

Vince could run Old WWF in a fashion where it's break even or at a loss, and all of the profits are eaten up by Titan. Same thing with New WWF, but he wouldn't care there... he's just trying to fuck Gorilla in the ass for trying to hold him up for Millions for 12.5% of the company rather than taking the $100K or so that another shareholder took.

 

We know Vince is just about the most ruthless fucker ever in pro wrestling, and probably the smartest business man in the history of the business when it comes to competition. You really think he'd be dumb enough to sign a bad deal that would net out $6M to Gorilla for 12.5% of the old territory when he simply could have burned him?

 

Did Vince buyout Verne for $6M for the old AWA territory? Or did he attack Verne, steal his talent, fight a bloody war, and eventually leave Verne with a dead promotion?

 

 

 

I respect the need for a healthy scepticism, but some aspect of that Gorilla story must be true.

Here they are:

 

Gorilla had shares in Capital

Gorilla sold his shares to Vince Jr.

Vince Jr. was happy enough with how much it cost him that he let Gorilla be one of his key announcers

 

 

You don't think Monsoon was a millionaire by the time the 80s were over?

Sure. He probably averaged $100K a year in the 70s between his wrestling and profits. He likely bought his home(s) when prices where low, and watched property go through the roof. If he upgraded to nicer neighborhoods and didn't do it by ringing up a load of debt, he saw his new property value go up as well. He probably averaged made $100K+ in the 80s with his announcing duties. If he was reasonably smart with his money, setting aside 10% or so for savings and investments, he'd be doing well.

 

I'll give you a For Example:

 

My father didn't make $100K a year in the 70s or 80s, or even close to it. But he bought a house in 1973 in a nice city when property values were low, and socked away 10% of his income into the 70s/80s equiv of a 401K (the old ESOPPs / Employee Stock Purchase Plans), which the company matched his purchased (in a far more generous fashion than my company and most others match 401K contributions these days). The stock market was up over 2500 at the dawn of 1990, after getting over 1000 very rarely prior to 1984 (and often being quite a bit below that from 1970-84). His company stock went up a good deal from the time he was hired and started contributed in 1965 until 1990. The company also had a separate pension that while less than the ESOP wasn't hump change after 25 years of working there. He had very little debt at that point: his house payment was literally less than the car payment that I had on the car I bought coming out of college (a 1989 Honda CRX). He frankly could have paid his house off in cash at that point he had so little left on it. All in all, as the 80s ended, he was extremely close to a net millionaire between 17 year rise in his house value (relative to chump change left on the mortgage), his ESOP, the pension, and other savings. Net. That for a guy who never made close to $100K in the 70s and 80s, was smart / frugal with his (and my mom's) money, and wasn't even really adventurous in trying to make a shitload out of that by playing around with the market.

 

Gorilla would have made a crapload more income in those two decades than my father. He would have likely bought nicer homes, in even more upscale cities. Perhaps he ran up a debt doing so. Perhaps he wasn't prudent in making investments, though Gorilla did come across as more prudent than your typical spend / drink / whore / snort wrestler of the era. So...

 

Yeah, I would expect Gorilla to be a millionaire by the end of the 80s, even without Vince paying him $4M or $6M or even $1M to buyout his 12.5% of the company.

 

Just to play devil's advocate here, where's your evidence to back that up?

What evidence do you have that Gorilla was even paid $100K for his share? Do you have a copy of the sale agreement? Do you have a copy of the check? Anything?

 

Or just hearsay and/or Wrestling Stories?

 

John

[Matt D]

All Gorilla really got was free rein to shit on all the wrestlers he wanted.

[Dylan Waco]

Can Wrestling Culture Podcast do a show on Curt Hennig?

 

Seems possible

[WingedEagle]

The GOAT show and '96 Yearbook discussion were probably 2 of my favorites. Would love some more that are similarly broad.

[Boon]

This WWf stuff is very interesting and not something I've read before. Does anyone know if there are any Expansion threads anywhere in the board? It's something I'd like to read more about...

You could start with this one http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=11633

 

Thanks man...

 

It's a massive thread with massive data dumps in it. Carve out some time for it rather than heading over when you only have 10 minutes.

 

John

 

I'm on page 4 and slowing working it. Couldn't possibly do it in one sitting, but thanks for the link