Little questions thread

[Matt D]

Ok. According to a WON from 91 Heyman got suspended for leaking information to Eddie Gilbert about the Lawler vs Luger Unification match, which soured Jerry Jarrett on the idea since too many people then knew about it.

 

Is there any truth to any part of that sentence?

[thebrainfollower]

Who was in charge of promoting the NWA/CWF Battle of the belts cards? Sounds like a dumb reason to ask but I just got all 3 cards as PC files, and want to decide whether to put them in my JCP/WCW folder or CWF folder.

[jdw]

CWF. Florida cards, bringing in outside talent:

 

http://prowrestlinghistory.com/supercards/...ida/battle.html

[jdw]

Ok. According to a WON from 91 Heyman got suspended for leaking information to Eddie Gilbert about the Lawler vs Luger Unification match, which soured Jerry Jarrett on the idea since too many people then knew about it.

 

Is there any truth to any part of that sentence?

 

http://wrestlingclassics.com/cgi-bin/.ubbc...=9;t=024096;p=0

[Tim Evans]

So I'm watching some dying days of Alabama wrestling in 89 and Cactus Jack Manson and Ron Starr are having a blood feud over something that happened in World Class. I remember Cactus feuding with Eric Embry in early 1989 but I thought Ron Starr was in Puerto Rico/Canada at the time. Did they ever wrestle each other in Texas?

[Matt D]

This is bugging me way too much.

 

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2007/06/21/4280344.html

 

Reno Riggins interview.

 

He says this

 

"Curt was getting primed to take on Hogan or the champion for a pay-per-view match (which had a big payoff) but something happened and he was bumped from the spot, and he was upset about it. I look up on the board and who am I wrestling? Curt Hennig. We had wrestled before and had good chemistry so I say, 'Curt, what do you want do tonight?' He said 'I want to give them a performance of a lifetime to make them regret bumping me out of my spot.' And we did. We were in that groove, that zone. It was a 10-12 minute match and I felt in that moment I could be an Intercontinental champion or a world champion."

Looking at Graham's site, there is

 

WWF @ Louisville, KY - Louisville Gardens - September 20, 1989

Wrestling Challenge taping:

Prime Time Wrestling - 10/23/89: Mr. Perfect (w/ the Genius) pinned Reno Riggins at 2:37 with the Perfect Plex

 

or

 

WWF @ Indianapolis, IN - Market Square Arena - October 29, 1990

WWF Superstars: 11/24/90: Mr. Perfect defeated Reno Riggins

 

and

 

WWF @ Biloxi, MS - Coast Coliseum - March 12, 1991 (around 9,000)

Wrestling Challenge: 3/31/91: WWF IC Champion Mr. Perfect (w/ Bobby Heenan) pinned Reno Riggins with the Perfect Plex at 2:30; after the bout, Gene Okerlund interviewed Heenan on the interview platform until Andre the Giant appeared and crushed Heenan's hand as he was shaking it, eventually bringing Heenan down to his knees before standing on his hand

 

And none of these really make sense.

[Dylan Waco]

Would it really shock anyone if Reno Riggins was full of shit?

[Matt D]

I guess I was most interested if there really was a chance Hennig vs Hogan was going to be a PPV match at some point. And if so, when? They put Genius over at the January SNME and did the belt breaking angle, so maybe it was meant to go as far as Mania at some point.

[khawk20]

Has anyone ever traced back/figured out who the first user of the "Cobra Clutch" was? Vachon was using it as AWA Champion in 1966 and I doubt he invented it.

Bumping this as it got buried early...anyone have any ideas?

[jdw]

I guess I was most interested if there really was a chance Hennig vs Hogan was going to be a PPV match at some point. And if so, when? They put Genius over at the January SNME and did the belt breaking angle, so maybe it was meant to go as far as Mania at some point.

That actually aired two days after Survivor Series, and was taped October 1989. The January 1990 SNME was Hogan & Warrior vs Perfect & Genius, and the point of it was to ad more fuel to Hogan-Warrior leading into Mania.

 

As far as Hogan-Henning on a PPV, the answer is no. Perfect debut in July 1988. The WWF had these PPV's that might be the ones Reno is talking about:

 

* Summer Slam 88

 

No, that was always going to be Hogan & Savage vs Andre & DiBiase.

 

* Survivor Series 88

 

No, that was always going to be a Survivors match for Hogan.

 

* Rumble 89

 

No, Hogan was always going to be in the Rumble. That's just the way it was back then.

 

* Mania 89

 

No, that was always going to be Hogan-Savage.

 

* Summer Slam 89

 

No, that was always going to have Hogan-Zeus in some form. They started taping aspects of this feud back in April, let alone filming No Holds Barred before that.

 

* Survivor Series 89

 

No, that also was always going to be Hogan-Zeus in a Survivors match. They didn't move away from having Hogan / The Champ in a Survivor tag yet.

 

* No Holds Barred 89

 

No, that was always going to be the Hogan-Zeus blow off. Of course Zeus was so bad that they had to do it as a tag match. They were cutting promos for this back in November, even before Survivors happened.

 

So we can eliminate *all* of the 1988-89 WWF PPV. Hennig was never going to main event any of them with Hogan, as Hulk was booked.

 

Looking at 1990, Hogan was going to be in the Rumble to have the angle to set up Hogan-Warrior at Mania. And Hogan-Warrior at Mania is something they'd known for a while.

 

* Rumble 90

 

Hogan was going to be in the Rumble to start the issue with Warrior

 

* Mania 90

 

Hogan-Warrior. Always was going to be it.

 

Hogan and Warrior also weren't going to work house shows against each other, so more the reason for Hogan to need a house show feud.

 

Hennig was just a house show feud, like Bad News, Bossman, Kamala, and countless other guys.

 

The angle was taped 10/31/89, to air 11/25/89 two days after Survivors. Hogan was also cutting promos for the No Holds Barred PPV, which was just the blow off the the Zeus storyline that went back to April. Hogan-Hennig appear to have done test matches on 11/20/89 & 11/22/89 before the angel ran. The feud proper started in December 1989. It ran essentially through Mania, though Hogan had a couple of tag matches against other opponents (with Bossman against the Powers of Pain). I'd have to look at the markets to see if Hogan-Perfect ran its course in those. Hogan-Perfect was fully blown off April 1990 SNME.

 

Hogan's post-Mania feud was with Earthquake, which was set up on with an angle twice in in February: the Main Event one where Quake attacked Warrior but Hogan ran in to save him, and the Superstars one taped earlier by aired in March where Hogan ate a sit down splash, Warrior came to the rescue, etc. Hogan-Quake started working around the horn after Mania, with the break after the angle in May.

 

Anyway...

 

There was no PPV that Hennig was going to main event. He was the 1989/90 equiv of the 1988/89 Hogan-Bossman feud: house show based to fill time since Hogan wasn't going around the circuit with his Mania opponent before Mania (Savage in 1989 and Warrior in 1990), with a post Mania blow off on SNME (Bossman in the cage, Hennig with a normal match).

 

Reno is full of shit.

 

Though it's possible that somewhere, at some time, he had a longer match with Hennig on a house show that Graham simply doesn't have listed. And that Hennig put on a show in 10 minutes. But this does go to my point earlier in the thread:

 

It's pro wrestling. Pro wrestlers, and those involved in pro wrestling, are full of shit. If they say the sky is blue, it's best to no believe them until you look up and confirm it.

 

John

[Loss]

I think Hogan/Piper was batted around as a possible Wrestlemania VI main event too, but otherwise, yes. No discussion of Hogan/Perfect that I recall.

[Kronos]

How is a match like the Royal Rumble constructed? Is everyone told who they will be eliminating and who they will be eliminated by, and how? Are they told how long they will be staying in? It seems like it would be extremely arduous to book it from top to bottom.

I thought this was a good question from the other day. Can anyone shed a little light on how Battle Royales are booked? My guess is that there's a few key elimination spots that get planned in advance, but for the most part the guys are told to wing it.

[Strummer]

Is the term "mechanic" a Vince McMahon creation or has it always been used within the business?

[artDDP]

How is a match like the Royal Rumble constructed? Is everyone told who they will be eliminating and who they will be eliminated by, and how? Are they told how long they will be staying in? It seems like it would be extremely arduous to book it from top to bottom.

I thought this was a good question from the other day. Can anyone shed a little light on how Battle Royales are booked? My guess is that there's a few key elimination spots that get planned in advance, but for the most part the guys are told to wing it.

 

The impression I've always had is that some key points are laid out in advance and the rest is left to the wrestlers themselves. Pat Patterson was instrumental in booking many of the Royal Rumbles themselves.

 

I have little doubt that the current Rumbles are scripted down to the last second by the writing team.

[JerryvonKramer]

I listened to Jason Mann's podcast on the 1990 Rumble recently so it's fresh in mind, I'll use that as an example.

 

Here is what I imagine the instructions of each of the first 10 guys would be from Pat Patterson

 

1. Ted DiBiase - "Ted, you're going to go long tonight. Stay out there and keep stuff going. Eliminate Koko Ware and Jannetty early doors. Make a deal of Roberts, suggest alliance with Savage. Hang in there until Warrior is in, take a clothesline to get elminated."

 

2. Koko B. Ware - "You're going out there first tonight Koko, you know what to do."

 

3. Marty Jannety - "Go after Ted for about a minute and then you get out."

 

4. Jake Roberts - "Go after Ted, pop the crowd. It'll be 2 vs 1 against Ted and Savage. Ally with Piper. Keep it going ten minutes or so, let the ring fill up. You're getting eliminated by Savage."

 

5. Randy Savage - "Suggest an alliance with Ted, go after Roberts. Keep it going ten minutes. Tease feud with Rhodes, he'll eliminate you seconds after you get Roberts out".

 

6. Roddy Piper - "You're evening things out for the faces - Roberts is 2 vs. 1 against Ted and Savage, you make it 2 vs. 2. Keep it going 10 minutes or so, ring has to fill up. Start feud with Brown, brawl to back."

 

7. The Warlord - "Ring will be filling up when you enter. Mix it up 7-8 minutes. Feed yourself to Andre."

 

8. Bret Hart - "You're going about 15 minutes in there. Mix things up, keep it going. Remember issues with Brown from before. Help Ted out. Dusty will eliminate you."

 

9. Bad News Brown - "5-6 minutes, you have no friends. Target Piper. Eliminate each other and brawl to back."

 

10. Dusty Rhodes - "Pop crowd going in, make an impact. Eliminate Savage and Bret. Mix it up 18-20 minutes. Feed yourself to Earthquake"

 

I don't see it being much more detailed than that.

[JerryvonKramer]

http://www.wrestling-titles.com/nwa/world/...atches1983.html

 

Who is this guy?

 

04/12 Tampa, FL "Big Daddy" NC

Also:

 

12/03 eCleveland, OH (ve) Pez Whatley D (60min)

God.

[Al]

"Big Daddy" is probably Stephen DeBlasio.

[pmo]

Silly question, Why aren't Tennis venues used for outdoor wrestling events? The more I look at them, the more it seems like it would be a good size for a ring and good sight lines.

[Kevin Ridge]

Silly question, Why aren't Tennis venues used for outdoor wrestling events? The more I look at them, the more it seems like it would be a good size for a ring and good sight lines.

Just thinking of Arthur Ashe stadium used for US Open and yeah it would make for a cool spot for wrestling. Probably lack of entrance/set up for stage would hurt it for WWE. It has a good capacity of 22K for tennis but being outdoors with no roof probably doesn't set well.

[artDDP]

Silly question, Why aren't Tennis venues used for outdoor wrestling events? The more I look at them, the more it seems like it would be a good size for a ring and good sight lines.

I've often thought the same thing. My guess is that the people associated with promoting tennis don't want anything to do with professional wrestling.

[Al]

I thought the same thing, and I wonder if some enterprising promoter would build a similar type building for wrestling/boxing/MMA events. As far as Arthur Ashe stadium, it's hard to justify that venue when Madison Square Garden is right there and possibly the most insanely accessible building in the NYC region.

[Stuttsy]

I listened to Jason Mann's podcast on the 1990 Rumble recently so it's fresh in mind, I'll use that as an example.

 

Here is what I imagine the instructions of each of the first 10 guys would be from Pat Patterson

 

1. Ted DiBiase - "Ted, you're going to go long tonight. Stay out there and keep stuff going. Eliminate Koko Ware and Jannetty early doors. Make a deal of Roberts, suggest alliance with Savage. Hang in there until Warrior is in, take a clothesline to get elminated."

 

2. Koko B. Ware - "You're going out there first tonight Koko, you know what to do."

 

3. Marty Jannety - "Go after Ted for about a minute and then you get out."

 

4. Jake Roberts - "Go after Ted, pop the crowd. It'll be 2 vs 1 against Ted and Savage. Ally with Piper. Keep it going ten minutes or so, let the ring fill up. You're getting eliminated by Savage."

 

5. Randy Savage - "Suggest an alliance with Ted, go after Roberts. Keep it going ten minutes. Tease feud with Rhodes, he'll eliminate you seconds after you get Roberts out".

 

6. Roddy Piper - "You're evening things out for the faces - Roberts is 2 vs. 1 against Ted and Savage, you make it 2 vs. 2. Keep it going 10 minutes or so, ring has to fill up. Start feud with Brown, brawl to back."

 

7. The Warlord - "Ring will be filling up when you enter. Mix it up 7-8 minutes. Feed yourself to Andre."

 

8. Bret Hart - "You're going about 15 minutes in there. Mix things up, keep it going. Remember issues with Brown from before. Help Ted out. Dusty will eliminate you."

 

9. Bad News Brown - "5-6 minutes, you have no friends. Target Piper. Eliminate each other and brawl to back."

 

10. Dusty Rhodes - "Pop crowd going in, make an impact. Eliminate Savage and Bret. Mix it up 18-20 minutes. Feed yourself to Earthquake"

 

I don't see it being much more detailed than that.

Based on my (admittedly non-WWE) experience, that is pretty right on. We've done a yearly Rumble at CWF Mid-Atlantic since 2001 and that's pretty close to how we "script" ours. Here's numbers 1 through 5 from our legit run sheet last year as an example:

 

1 – Chase Dakota

2 – Jason Miller

(Miller starts on on fire, hitting all his big stuff, including getting Chase on apron once or twice, who barely survives)

 

3 – Chet Sterling

(Chet comes in and it appears that the tide will turn, but Miller quickly reverses whatever they do and gets BOTH heels in peril and continues getting over with all his power stuff.)

 

4 – Joe Black

(The tide finally does turn in favor of the heels the second Joe gets in. This is the 90 seconds for the heels to hit any signature stuff - that’s realistic to do on Miller - before #5 gets there.)

 

5 – Mark James

(Mark James bumps all the heels, saving Miller from the 3-on-1, then Miller & James together eliminate Chet, leaving Miller/Mark James vs. Chase/Joe Black)

 

 

If it helps you guys visualize the flow of things: Dakota is a junior heavyweight heel who watches too much Dragon Gate, Miller is a Barry Windham-esque ass kicking babyface, Sterling a smarmy stooge junior heavyweight heel, Black is a power wrestler and Dakota's tag-team partner, James is an ass kicking journeyman babyface.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm just watching the second volume of the Jim Cornette-Bill Watts ROH interview. This is where he's going on and on about the "mega-trend" aka the oil crisis that put him on the verge of bankruptcy.

 

He is saying that his gates in Oklahoma City and Tulsa went from 100k a week to less than 20k a week, and to boot in New Orleans they couldn't find any hookers in the French Quarter. He was losing 50k a week!

 

I don't really see that particular oil crisis mentioned much on tv, in documentaries, historical accounts of the 80s etc. From the way Watts is talking, that had to have been a massive deal for that section of the country. Was it underreported because it was removed from the East and West coasts? I know in this country, there are often complaints about London bias -- i.e. a problem isn't treated as a major deal until it hits London / the South East. I was wondering if there was a bit of that with this mid-80s oil crisis.

[Loss]

The oil crisis tended to disproportionately affect wrestling promoters who weren't giving people what they wanted to see anymore.

[JerryvonKramer]

Watts was arguing that pretty much everything ground to a halt down there. Rock tours cancelled. Is he simply making this up?