Booking philosophies of match sequencing

[jdw]

I'm at a total loss that someone would think that US Fans never laughed at Comedy Spots in the long tradition of comedy in US Pro Wrestling.

 

Hell, I've been at lucha cards where Negro Casas got the entire crowd to laugh at him... and even got *his* fans to *not* support him after such a comedy spot. I know... because I was right in the middle of the section of Negro Fans (both gringos and Mexican) who had been cheering him up to that point. And Negro Fans were so hip to what their role was that the knew that when Negro appealed to them after a stoogey buffoon spot that they were suppose to shake their head and wave their index finger at Negro to say:

 

"No... we can't support you when you fall on your face like that."

 

To which Negro perfectly played it, pouting that he'd even lost His Fans.

 

I actually think other than the Baba Matches that Japan is pretty light on comedy relative to US pro wrestling.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWusj-ZaF4c

 

 

I'm sure that people can find clips of Cornette and the MX getting laughed at as well.

 

John

[Matt D]

Don't we have plenty of memphis where they're laughing like crazy at heel lawler? Or with face lawler at some hapless fool?

[JerryvonKramer]

If you can find as many examples of US crowds losing their shit in the 80s as there are in All Japan, then I'm happy to be proven wrong. In 100s of hours of watching WWF and NWA though I don't recall it ever being a thing. And certainly never heard the Tommy Young spot get an audible laugh.

[Matt D]

 

This probably shouldn't count since it's the funniest thing ever. But look at the crowd's faces at the 2 minute mark.

[jdw]

Wait... I just have to find 1 example in the US in the 80s of US crowd laughing at a comedy spot? So like Rick Rude taking a nut shot on the ropes? Or Cornette and the diaper? Or...

 

You're kidding, right?

 

John

[jdw]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4RoU7divHU

 

This probably shouldn't count since it's the funniest thing ever. But look at the crowd's faces at the 2 minute mark.

Yeah... the Weasel Suit was pretty famous.

 

I think Jerry is just trolling. I can't imagine anyone thinks 80s US Wrestling was devoid of comedy and fans laughing at heels stooging.

 

John

[Matt D]

During the Rude/Piper cage matches they always did the pants falling down thing and the crowd would go nuts.

 

Just find a Buddy Rose match.

[jdw]

Yep... Buddy is a perfect example. Ditto on the Rude-Piper. Adonis taking crotch shots on the rope... pretty much any heel doing so.

 

John

[jdw]

Okay... so we can pitch the comedy nonsense on the woodpile.

 

On the original thread of "needing cooling off matches / segements", I think that can go as well. We all have seen cards where there were back-to-back matches with hot crowds.

 

The notion that they need to be different didn't work either, as Liger-Sasuke and Pegasus-Sasuke (along with any number of others) were similar.

 

So... it appears to be an issue with either the WWE or the specific workers, or a combo of both.

 

John

[Matt D]

I kind of feel like he wants us to lean towards Flair. Were the fans cracking up when Magnum destroyed Flair's nice suit?

[Matt D]

Okay... so we can pitch the comedy nonsense on the woodpile.

 

On the original thread of "needing cooling off matches / segements", I think that can go as well. We all have seen cards where there were back-to-back matches with hot crowds. The notion that they need to be different didn't work either, as Liger-Sasuke and Pegasus-Sasuke (along with any number of others) were similar. So... it appears to be an issue with either the WWE or the specific workers, or a combo of both.

 

John

We have to differentiate by era somewhat, but do you feel like, let's say 1984/1989/1994 WWF crowds may be unique in other ways, whether it be their expectations or what they've been conditioned to enjoy or what?

 

Would other crowds accept the 4 minute chinlock with minimal interaction/elbow up transition as willingly?

[jdw]

I don't think 1984-94 WWF crowds were unique. Like most fans, they were trained to like what the promotion fed them... but fans didn't always go along with the program. I also think that one could find plenty of what was "boring" in the WWF in other promotions. Fans weren't exactly chanting Booooorrrrrringggggg everywhere.

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

Wait... I just have to find 1 example in the US in the 80s of US crowd laughing at a comedy spot?

Because that's what I said

 

If you can find as many examples of US crowds losing their shit in the 80s as there are in All Japan, then I'm happy to be proven wrong.

[JerryvonKramer]

I don't really understand your game here jdw. Would it make your head spontaneously explode to admit that Japanese audiences have a habit of laughing during matches in a way that US don't tend to?

 

I mean I'm not saying it's never happened, I'm saying that in over 20 years of being I fan I can't remember a whole lot of times when I've heard US crowds do that either in WWF shows or Crockett or WCW shows -- even during comedy spots or comedy matches. The reaction for the Tommy Young spot tends to be a pop, not a big laugh.

 

Watching 80s All Japan it was noticeable how many times the crowd laughed. I haven't just made it up here. I don't really understand your insatiable desire to want to prove me wrong. But hey ho, it's another thread and that's what you do isn't it.

[Matt D]

Can we think of a US promotion which had a comedy match every card? or almost ever card?

[Guest Andrews]

Can we think of a US promotion which had a comedy match every card? or almost ever card?

Define comedy match? Howard Finkle vs Fink in a tuxedo match??!

 

Without giving it any thought, I'd dare say WWE have elements of comedy in every single show, PPV, you name it...

[Al]

I'd say the comedy match was often booked as a special attraction in the territory days. Generally when you booked midget wrestling.

[JerryvonKramer]

It's not comedy matches or even elements. WWF has always been a very comedy heavy promotion. All I've said is that I can't recall too many occasions where the reaction of a crowd has been one of them falling about laughing. Obviously I'm not saying that Americans don't laugh, I'm just saying there's a cultural difference between the way American audiences and Japanese audiences react to things. The laughter you get in 80s All Japan is a certain type of laughter too, kinda warm, everyone is in it together.

 

I don't know what jdw has a bee in his bonnet about. He seems to be wanting to argue that there's some wrestling universal here so feels the need to stamp down any difference between US and Japanese wrestling that he can.

 

------------------

 

Anyway, to come back to the thread topic, I'm not convinced that you can just throw out the idea of peaks and troughs because you can think of examples where a show has had back-to-back hot matches.

 

jdw dodged this question to indulge in his favourite hobby, which is finding new and inventive ways to disagree with me inthe most condescending way he can come up with and/or winding me up at the same time.

 

Question for jdw: to what extent did each of those matches have peaks and troughs (or valleys as you call them) WITHIN each match?

That's something I wanted to come back to, which is that match structure itself has ups and downs built into it. It's a point that was lost in the mix. If you look at NWA cards, there may be a hot semi-main but the Flair match will start slow so your "trough" is the first 7-10 minutes of matwork. I've seen dozens of shows structured in that way.

 

WWF didn't have long 30-minute+ main events like that, so they structured their cards differently. Instead of 7-10 minutes of matwork, you get 2 filler matches.

 

KrisZ said that most other territories booked their big shows more like NWA than WWF. I'd be interested to see if the match lengths were about the same.

 

Peaks and troughs is not something I've made up by the way, it's a very well known consideration for any crowd when managing an event. Not just wrestling, any event. Let's throw it out the window though, because jdw can think of Liger-Sasuke and Pegasus-Sasuke.

[NintendoLogic]

I'm a bit confused as to what Jerry's argument is. If matches have peaks and troughs built into them, why the need for filler matches? It's not like Hogan/Warrior was 23 minutes of wall-to-wall action.

[JerryvonKramer]

Well let me ask you then NintendoLogic: do you think Warrior vs. Hogan would have suffered if something like Punk vs. Taker had been right before it? Do you think it would have gone down the same way or would it have been affected?

 

The peaks and troughs within a match I'm talking about are in a 40-minute Flair match following something like a Tag title or US title switch. They are going from a high into Flair stalling or sitting in a hammerlock or something. It's been a while since I saw Hogan vs. Warrior but doesn't it start with them nose to nose and a series of immovable object vs. irresistible force spots with the crowd going absolutely mental? I think an audience might be able to sustain that for 20 minutes if they are coming into it ready.

[jdw]

I don't really understand your game here jdw. Would it make your head spontaneously explode to admit that Japanese audiences have a habit of laughing during matches in a way that US don't tend to?

It's not about head exploding. I just don't think Japanese crowds laughed anymore in the 80s than US crowds. Folks have given you examples in the US. You ignore them. That's SOP for you:

 

* you make a claim

* you don't back it up

* others point to things contrary to your claims

* you ignore them

* others give examples of those conterpoints

* you ignore them some more

* others give even more examples

 

Wash, rinse, repeat.

 

 

I mean I'm not saying it's never happened, I'm saying that in over 20 years of being I fan I can't remember a whole lot of times when I've heard US crowds do that either in WWF shows or Crockett or WCW shows -- even during comedy spots or comedy matches. The reaction for the Tommy Young spot tends to be a pop, not a big laugh.

Jerry: a number of other people have pointed to you examples of comedy in US matches getting laughs. That you can't remember doesn't void their reality.

 

 

Watching 80s All Japan it was noticeable how many times the crowd laughed. I haven't just made it up here. I don't really understand your insatiable desire to want to prove me wrong. But hey ho, it's another thread and that's what you do isn't it.

So was there more laughing in Choshu & Yatsu vs Jumbo & Tenryu than that Warrior-Heenan Weasel Suit match?

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

You've given me examples of comedy matches, not examples of the crowd laughing audibly like Japanese crowds do. I can't seem to watch the Weasel suit video (blocked in this country), but my memory of it is the crowd popping massive for Warrior and the commentary team playing up the laughs. I'll try to see if there's another version on there.

[NintendoLogic]

Well let me ask you then NintendoLogic: do you think Warrior vs. Hogan would have suffered if something like Punk vs. Taker had been right before it? Do you think it would have gone down the same way or would it have been affected?

 

The peaks and troughs within a match I'm talking about are in a 40-minute Flair match following something like a Tag title or US title switch. They are going from a high into Flair stalling or sitting in a hammerlock or something. It's been a while since I saw Hogan vs. Warrior but doesn't it start with them nose to nose and a series of immovable object vs. irresistible force spots with the crowd going absolutely mental? I think an audience might be able to sustain that for 20 minutes if they are coming into it ready.

No, I don't think there's much that would have diminished the heat for a Hogan match of that era. Do you really think that Hogan/Andre would have suffered one iota if it had directly followed Savage/Steamboat? As long as we're talking Manias, look at WM17. Rock/Austin had no problem directly following Taker/HHH, and they sure as hell weren't sitting in hammerlocks in the opening minutes.

[BrickHithouse]

For an example of a crowd laughing their way thru an entire card in the States, comedy or not, check out Over the Edge 98.

 

They laugh at everything. Struck me as odd at the time. Was Milwaukee a laughing crowd in the AWA days?

[khawk20]

You've given me examples of comedy matches, not examples of the crowd laughing audibly like Japanese crowds do. I can't seem to watch the Weasel suit video (blocked in this country), but my memory of it is the crowd popping massive for Warrior and the commentary team playing up the laughs. I'll try to see if there's another version on there.

Try to find the Greg Gagne vs. Bobby Heenan Weasel Suit match from 1980 instead. It's a different laughing at the heel vibe, one of "He finally got what's coming to him" as opposed to the Warrior-Heenan "Ha what an idiot" laughter. The match itself is fairly dramatic, which makes it a good example of how to be both funny and serious in a match as there is.

 

Bobby Heenan was sooooooooo loathed in the AWA. I think fans laughed to surpress the urge to strangle him.

 

EDIT: It's on Disc 12 of the DVDVR AWA set, under the "Heenan" tag. I think you got the set if memory serves.

 

(For that matter, the Heenan-Warrior match might be on the Brickhithouse set (guessing, without looking it up), which I believe I read you saying you picked up as well, if you can't find it online).