El Dandy

[goc]

Yea I'm going to take Parv's side here and say that Bill comes across as the much bigger dickhead in this. Bill you wanting to run Parv off the board or get him banned is just childish bullshit.

 

You're apparently sticking up for all these nameless faceless people who've been scared off by Parv's posting but who really gives a shit about defending them? If they don't have the balls to defend their opinion or the sense to just ignore someone who is so at odds with them then do we really need to shed crocodile tears that they aren't on PWO? And attempt to run off someone who is at least willing to spend great amounts of time and effort to review and analyze footage in the process? I don't think so.

 

And I say all this as someone who has also been so annoyed at Parv's insistence that his opinion is the correct and true narrative that I caricaturized him in my 1983 fantasy booking with Lord Alfred Hayes.

[Matt D]

I am a little amused by the idea of a potential reputational risk of publishing my ideas, mind you.

[dawho5]

It's just a message board, fellas. No need to get that upset about it. If somebody is saying something that makes you that mad, stop reading their posts for a while.

 

That being said, I don't understand the need to run anyone off the board, much less the guy who does all kinds of advertising across multiple podcasts that get what seems like a pretty healthy audience. The whole idea is to have many differing takes on pro wrestling so that people who read the posts can see different sides of the arguments.

[ohtani's jacket]

In closing though, let me say this: with certain things -- Jazz, Lucha, certain films (and it's funny you mention French New Wave, because it's not really my favourite scene) -- I accept and feel deep down that the failing is mine. As in, I see it as a form of my failing to get whatever it is people are seeing. I do out things forcefully sometimes, and can get "passionate" as you say, but it is a mistake to take some of my comments said in the moment absolutely. "I don't understand how anyone can think this is five star" is partly an admission of failure, rather than an assertion that my views are final and true.

 

I had a sneaking suspicion about French New Wave, but it's impossible to like everything no matter how hard you try. I can understand wanting to see and hear everything to get a full picture of what's out there, but most people are instantly dismissive of stuff they're not into and don't butt heads with it as much as you are. To your sprouts analogy, you're choking on your Brussels. I liked Matt's analogy above about limbwork being like adding sauce to a dish that's unpalatable, but if you ever look for another way in, I would suggest strong character work ala Cota and not work driven lucha.

[Coffey]

Coincidentally, I linked a friend to this thread today so he could read about El Dandy, as his only exposure to him thus far had been as a jobber in WCW's Cruiserweight division. Unbeknownst to me, all of this petty drama was unfolding at the back end of the thread. I hope he doesn't read the thread that far...

[pol]

Total immersion in a genre is what Matt was arguing for before. But you've got to want to like it.

 

Yeah. I began attempting to get into lucha around the time last year's Virus vs. Titán title match was being heavily talked up. I thought that match was fine, but not even close to something I would have called a MOTYC. Yet all these people with well-thought out, nuanced opinions were praising it. I wanted to understand what they saw in it. I spent a good year watching several modern CMLL matches a week before I even felt comfortable saying that any given match was bad, rather than that I just didn't understand it. I had to understand the form before I could have a proper appreciation for the matches. It's unfortunate that so little old lucha TV is available, because I think watching, say, CMLL's 1990 TV sequentially, all the good and bad, would be a far better way to get a handle on the style than cherry picking well-regarded matches. Of course, it would also be a huge commitment, and you can hardly blame someone for not wanting to trawl through a bunch of footage they don't like in the hope that maybe they'll like it at some point in the future.

[BillThompson]

I'll also say this, for every person you think is driven off by the depth and fierceness of some of the debate we have, how many people have found the site through the podcasts that I've put out there? Well? Have a trawl through the newcomers thread. Yes , there's only so many shots I'm willing to take.

 

This is your take on message board posts, "their depth and fierceness." You're making posts on a wrestling message board, there is no fierceness taking place; from you, myself, or anyone really. And really, if you think grown adults are so scared of the fierceness of your debating skills then you really are beyond hope. Maybe, just maybe, they don't want to deal with someone who argues like a child?

 

As for the rest, people can call me a dick all they want, but I'm secure in the vitriol I'm slinging towards Parv. He's a guy who gets his jollies on telling others that their opinions are arbitrary or don't matter. So, hurting his feelings doesn't concern me much. And trust me, if I take off it's not because of the fierceness of any debate or because I'm oh so scared of you Parv. I run into burning buildings for a living and I hold four year old kids in my arms as they die. Don't think that a guy who is too full of himself on a message board is all that fierce or scary actually.

[Johnny Sorrow]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BkHmZNLCcAAxEfX.jpg

 

 

I'll also say this, for every person you think is driven off by the depth and fierceness of some of the debate we have, how many people have found the site through the podcasts that I've put out there? Well? Have a trawl through the newcomers thread. Yes , there's only so many shots I'm willing to take.

 

This is your take on message board posts, "their depth and fierceness." You're making posts on a wrestling message board, there is no fierceness taking place; from you, myself, or anyone really. And really, if you think grown adults are so scared of the fierceness of your debating skills then you really are beyond hope. Maybe, just maybe, they don't want to deal with someone who argues like a child?

 

As for the rest, people can call me a dick all they want, but I'm secure in the vitriol I'm slinging towards Parv. He's a guy who gets his jollies on telling others that their opinions are arbitrary or don't matter. So, hurting his feelings doesn't concern me much. And trust me, if I take off it's not because of the fierceness of any debate or because I'm oh so scared of you Parv. I run into burning buildings for a living and I hold four year old kids in my arms as they die. Don't think that a guy who is too full of himself on a message board is all that fierce or scary actually.

 

[JerryvonKramer]

Let's get back to wrestling shall we.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

In closing though, let me say this: with certain things -- Jazz, Lucha, certain films (and it's funny you mention French New Wave, because it's not really my favourite scene) -- I accept and feel deep down that the failing is mine. As in, I see it as a form of my failing to get whatever it is people are seeing. I do out things forcefully sometimes, and can get "passionate" as you say, but it is a mistake to take some of my comments said in the moment absolutely. "I don't understand how anyone can think this is five star" is partly an admission of failure, rather than an assertion that my views are final and true.

I had a sneaking suspicion about French New Wave, but it's impossible to like everything no matter how hard you try. I can understand wanting to see and hear everything to get a full picture of what's out there, but most people are instantly dismissive of stuff they're not into and don't butt heads with it as much as you are. To your sprouts analogy, you're choking on your Brussels. I liked Matt's analogy above about limbwork being like adding sauce to a dish that's unpalatable, but if you ever look for another way in, I would suggest strong character work ala Cota and not work driven lucha.

 

I think the next stop might be Satanico, OJ.

[goc]

Let's get back to wrestling shall we.

Greatly disappointed in you editing out what was originally here, you were just about to turn full babyface with that promo.

[JerryvonKramer]

Life's too short bud. I don't like drama. Wrestling is the name on the marquee.

[GSR]

Do not give me this total crap about me treating other people badly or like they are scum. I resent it because it is simply not true. Hell, I've even put you over Bill, so please, give me a break.

It must have been a different Jerry Von Kramer that patronised and ridiculed that poster for having the temerity to suggest that Dibiase's stock was falling in the GWE poll? The way you patronised him when telling him to watch the Duggan vs Dibiase match? I know 'Parv' is always right, 'Parv' knows best and 'Parv' is clearly so smarter than everyone else on this board, but you are in a bubble if you think there is nothing wrong with the way you speak to people, especially if they don't agree with 'Parv'.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

Do not give me this total crap about me treating other people badly or like they are scum. I resent it because it is simply not true. Hell, I've even put you over Bill, so please, give me a break.

It must have been a different Jerry Von Kramer that patronised and ridiculed that poster for having the temerity to suggest that Dibiase's stock was falling in the GWE poll? The way you patronised him when telling him to watch the Duggan vs Dibiase match? I know 'Parv' is always right, 'Parv' knows best and 'Parv' is clearly so smarter than everyone else on this board, but you are in a bubble if you think there is nothing wrong with the way you speak to people, especially if they don't agree with 'Parv'.

 

The poster you are talking about is Marty. Superstar Sleaze. A guy who sends me Facebook messages. A guy who was excited to do the first part of my Flair podcast mini-series with me. A guy who has a show on a feed I started.

 

Marty, please tell me, did my response to you saying DiBiase's stock was falling make you feel worthless? Did I make you feel like shit? Did I hurt your feelings? Did you feel like I was treating you badly?

 

Or are some people blind to the fact that lots of us here are friends who aren't scared of disagreement and who can roll with the punches?

[funkdoc]

i'm not entirely comfortable with protecting posters because of their podcasts, which is what some people in here seem to be indirectly suggesting.

 

my main beef here is that parv in his worst moments has been guilty of some of the same behavior that rovert was apparently banned for - i.e. just getting his shit in and not being so interested in followup arguments. i don't feel quite the same way as bill because there's also plenty of times where he does engage, but at times i wonder if there isn't a bit of a double standard with this forum

[Loss]

I don't get that. I do agree that Parv (I wish we could call him by his board name -- calling a poster by their shoot name in a contentious thread makes everything feel uncomfortably personal for me) is a lightning rod for some people, but there are times when I think he brings it on himself (although I honestly think that's rare these days) and there are times where I think people remember the last time he brought it on himself and drag that into an unrelated topic.

 

The whole reason this board was started was so we could discuss Pro Wrestling ONLY. People knew each other too well and knowing how someone felt about gay people (because of a Current Events forum), as one of many examples, was leaving a stink on everything else. With podcasting as it relates to the board, that's happening again in a different way, where the personalities are overtaking the subject matter. What you're describing isn't so much a double standard in moderation as it is a board where I honestly think the discussion has become too driven by the messenger. It's at its best when we are about the message.

[dawho5]

I in no way intended to say that Parv ought to be given a pass because of his podcasts. The overarching point is that this is, at it's very core, a message board where we talk about wrestling. If you see something that makes you mad from a certain poster on a regular enough basis or they seem like their views run extremely counter to yours there is a very simple solution. Ignore their posts. You are in no way required to respond.

 

I feel like it is counterproductive, as mentioned by Loss, to start personal confrontations of this stuff rather than debate more the wrestling side of the issue. So as a for instance, maybe it's better off if Bill when he had something to say about an opinion of Parv's he kept it to the actual subject matter that is being discussed and not Parv's history as a poster or whatever else might get dragged up. And likewise on Parv's part. That being said, I will also add that both Bill and Parv have been personally responsible for me watching matches I might not otherwise have even thought about looking for. To me that makes both valuable members of the board. I think that is one of the main functions of someplace like PWO is finding wrestling that you would not otherwise have been aware of. So if anyone were to ask if I felt like either Bill or Parv should be banned for starting trouble at any point I would disagree very clearly with that. I do, however, think that maybe there ought to be less personal attacks and more response to views espoused in arguments.

[donsem43]

As someone who isn't in the loop around here, discussions can get confusing when posters start using real names. You lose track of who is talking to who and it can be hard to keep up with what points are trying to be made.

[JerryvonKramer]

I want to be done with this, because it no longer has anything to do with El Dandy or wrestling. To Loss's point: I don't really believe that the people who attack me have much to do with my podcasts -- as in, listeners are generally pre-disposed to look at me favourably (for obvious reasons), especially if I was their route into the board. I have not looked at it closely, but I'd wager that the people who have been most personal and vitrolic are likely to be those who a. aren't listeners and b. who do not actually "know" me. As in, that Magnum could think my post to Superstar Sleaze on DiBiase's stock falling was me treating him badly demonstrates how he doesn't quite understand the context of how well Marty and I know each other. And where I come from, friends don't pull punches in arguments. We aren't delicate flowers, we will go for it. And sometimes in the heat of it you drop the "oh sir, I respect your opinion but I beg to differ" aspect. And even then, the tone on this board is way way more respectful than 98% of the rest of the internet, espeically on message boards.

 

Anyway, this is mainly for donsem. JvK = Parv, soup23 = chad, soup = Pete, goodhelment = Will, Loss = Charles, Ricky Jackson = Kelly, jdw = John, El-P = Jerome, Superstar Sleaze = Marty, Bigelow34 = Justin, Grimmas = Steven, puropotsy = Dave.

 

Since Loss has mentioned this, I think I'll try to stick to board names over shoot names from now on, but bookmark that if you ever feel lost.

[Superstar Sleeze]

 

Do not give me this total crap about me treating other people badly or like they are scum. I resent it because it is simply not true. Hell, I've even put you over Bill, so please, give me a break.

It must have been a different Jerry Von Kramer that patronised and ridiculed that poster for having the temerity to suggest that Dibiase's stock was falling in the GWE poll? The way you patronised him when telling him to watch the Duggan vs Dibiase match? I know 'Parv' is always right, 'Parv' knows best and 'Parv' is clearly so smarter than everyone else on this board, but you are in a bubble if you think there is nothing wrong with the way you speak to people, especially if they don't agree with 'Parv'.

 

Magnum Milano, I mean this sincerely, I appreciate you being offended for me. I am a pretty easy going person especially in regards to pro wrestling. I can also relate to Parv in the fact I usually speak in hyperbole. That's not to say Parv or I do not mean what we say. We just experience something at full force and we express in such a way. So he came at me in full on Parv mode and that's cool because I know him and I know he is not picking on me. He just really, really wants me to at least understand where he is coming from. I did not feel attacked by Parv and did not think I was disrespected. Parv has an intense passion for pro wrestling and I hope it is never extinguished even if I think sometimes he brings this on himself by overgeneralizing or stating things as fact when he may not have all the information. Parv, please don't ask me for examples because I can't think of any. We are all guilty of that. We form opinions on what we know and that's all we really can do. I think Parv's heart is in the right place and he is an eager learner. God, now I sound patronizing.

 

Fuck, I don't really know what I want to say. I am trying to defend Parv, but temper with the fact that I can understand people's frustrations. I guess please dont get offended on my behalf and don't hold it against Parv. I don;t think he has overstepped his bounds in regards to me. If I get offended by Parv, I will flame his fucking ass and you will all know about it.

 

Parv, what the fuck, bro, you can't expose the business like that with such insider info. For the Love of God, you tool, IT IS SLEEZE! S-L-DOUBLE E-Z-E BECAUSE MISSPELLING IS EXTREME!

[funkdoc]

I don't really believe that the people who attack me have much to do with my podcasts -- as in, listeners are generally pre-disposed to look at me favourably (for obvious reasons), especially if I was their route into the board.

 

if you include me in that group, i've actually listened to all of titans and am going through WTBBP now - real nice for getting through work. i enjoy a lot of your stuff and dig when there's real back-and-forth involved on here - i've just developed really high expectations for this board so i'm more likely to voice my frustrations when things fall short.

 

 

loss: the issue is that a medium like podcasts or live streaming inherently makes it more about the messenger. really, even something like social-justice twitter has suffered the same fate, where the major voices have essentially become competing brands with their own hordes of loyalists. that's where i have concerns over how heavily this forum has become invested in podcasts, even if i realize it's the future (well, the present).

[TheU_2001]

That's what I mean. It always comes back to the Bret Hart quote. :(Anytime El Dandy gets praised, it is assumed that it's a joke.

I honestly always thought about the Bret Hart quote when El Dandy was brought up, then watched some of his stuff after hearing about him on WTBBP podcasts top 100 matches. He's actually pretty good, and is ranked in my top 100 now.

[ElHijodeGorgeousGeorge]

So pretty much, the point of all of this is El Dandy is fucking awesome. Recently just got into his stuff pre-WCW and was blown away. Particularly his stuff with Angel Azteca, as well as pretty much any of his other matches from the very early 90's.