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[1997-02-09-NJPW] Jushin Liger vs Shinjiro Otani


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  • 3 weeks later...

This is such a beautiful pro wrestling match. Everything about it from the opening bell. Liger's selling of Otani's ground game in the opening part of the match is outstanding. This is a mix in some ways of Choshu/Hashimoto (the awesome extended collar-and-elbow to start things out) and Misawa/Kobashi (Otani working over Liger's arm to neutralize his palm strikes) mixed in with things that these guys can do that the heavies simply can't. Otani kicks out of the shotei, which is progress from the match these two had the year before. But he's still Otani, celebrating victory before it's his -- stalling and showboating unnecessarily before hitting his final move. He practically dares Liger to knock him out after taking multiple palm shots, and sure enough, Liger finally does. A brilliant match - probably the best juniors match of the decade - but I think Otani actually getting a win over Liger is being stretched out way too long. Does it ever even happen?

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One other thing I should have mentioned is the length of this match. It was much longer than your usual juniors match -- about 27 minutes. That's not the reason I love it so much, but I think it's interesting that they were working a "deeper" story than usual that really demanded more time to play out. They made use of the additional time exceptionally well. They didn't add additional filler because they had extra time to play with. If anything, there was less of the typical early match filler than usual, and the match felt tighter and leaner than many matches half the length.

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Otani actually getting a win over Liger is being stretched out way too long. Does it ever even happen?

It does in October, in a match that isn't on this level and isn't on the set.

 

I'm a little disappointed that it wasn't recommended, because Otani getting his big win seems like something that should probably go on regardless of match quality after the March '96 and February '97 matches.

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This match worked so well, both as 27 minutes of exciting action and as an important chapter in their rivalry. Liger was great. Everything he did looked great. And yet, Otani was better. Technically, he had an answer for everything Liger could throw at him. But he wasn't mature enough to take it home. He had to dangle his chin out there like proto-Anderson-Silva, and that shit wasn't going to fly with a proud champion. The finishing sequence was so great, with each palm strike resounding as a nail in Otani's coffin of hubris. One of my favorite things in sports is watching a team or athlete gradually learn how to be a contender. Liger-Otani has always struck me as one of the best wrestling dramatizations of that dynamic, albeit without the perfect payoff win for Otani. For me, this is probably neck-and-neck with Liger-Sano for best juniors match of the decade.

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Otani actually getting a win over Liger is being stretched out way too long. Does it ever even happen?

It does in October, in a match that isn't on this level and isn't on the set.

 

And in 1995 as well, though Liger had the "excuse" of it being early in his return off his injury. Basically put over both Koji and Ohtani who had been "growing up" in the junior division while Liger was out. Then he was fully back at the 01/04/96 Tokyo Dome, and re-established himself as NJPW's top junior while Sasuke and Dragon were his out-of-promotion peers.

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but I think Otani actually getting a win over Liger is being stretched out way too long.

Again, the rivalry didn't really start until 1996. Then recall what happened in 1996:

 

* Liger gets IWGP back from Koji

* Koji & Shinji get title shotes in early 1996 with Liger retaining

* Liger put over Sasuke for the title in April

* Liger puts over BT in Super Juniors to set up Eddy for title shot

* Skydiving J to set up J Crown

* Sasuke (i.e. IWGP Champ) gets J Crown

* Liger had brain tumor

* Dragon gets J Crown

 

Then on 01/04/97, Liger wins the J Crown so that the Big 3 (Liger and his two indy rivials) have all passed it around).

 

It's not like Liger has had a lot of time to put over Ohtani, nor in a way that wouldn't have gotten in the way of that rather good booking job he did for the balance of the year. It's now Feb, and he just got the belt(s) back from Dragon. This isn't exactly 2000 WWF where the titles bounce around every week. :)

 

Instead, he does set up Shinji for a run later in the year.

 

Liger is frankly quicker on giving wins to lower ranked guys than say Baba is. :)

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Hadn't watched this in donkey's years. It really does feel like the perfect middle match between the 3/96 match and a match that never happened, although I must say I liked the clipped version of one of their 1998 matches I saw. The matwork wasn't great here, but New Japan matwork never really is, and I thought Ohtani's acting as a bit iffy in the beginning, but once it got into the section of the match where they start unloading their offense on each other I thought it was a cracking match. Liger reminds me of El Hijo del Santo a lot in that everything he does is excellent but incredibly predictable and it's difficult to really care about him all that much, but Ohtani wasn't ready to step up here and they told that story really well. Ohtani had toned down on the facials here, but I wonder if he had it in him to take this feud to the next level where it was believable that he'd matured enough to beat Liger. I wish the economics of the industry had stayed stable and we could have seen it play out properly.

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but I think Otani actually getting a win over Liger is being stretched out way too long.

Again, the rivalry didn't really start until 1996. Then recall what happened in 1996:

 

* Liger gets IWGP back from Koji

* Koji & Shinji get title shotes in early 1996 with Liger retaining

* Liger put over Sasuke for the title in April

* Liger puts over BT in Super Juniors to set up Eddy for title shot

* Skydiving J to set up J Crown

* Sasuke (i.e. IWGP Champ) gets J Crown

* Liger had brain tumor

* Dragon gets J Crown

 

Then on 01/04/97, Liger wins the J Crown so that the Big 3 (Liger and his two indy rivials) have all passed it around).

 

It's not like Liger has had a lot of time to put over Ohtani, nor in a way that wouldn't have gotten in the way of that rather good booking job he did for the balance of the year. It's now Feb, and he just got the belt(s) back from Dragon. This isn't exactly 2000 WWF where the titles bounce around every week. :)

 

Instead, he does set up Shinji for a run later in the year.

If Otani wasn't going over here, why do this match so soon? As much as I loved it, Otani lost to Samurai in January the year before. Then he lost to Liger (three days after beating Benoit) in March. Then he lost in the semis at the J Crown to Ultimo. Then he lost to Liger here. That doesn't sound like someone being set up for a big title run. It sounds like someone who can't get a meaningful win over a native.

 

Liger is frankly quicker on giving wins to lower ranked guys than say Baba is. :)

Liger liked to play the bitch?

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Otani actually getting a win over Liger is being stretched out way too long. Does it ever even happen?

It does in October, in a match that isn't on this level and isn't on the set.

 

What is the date of this October match? I want to add it to my Rewatching and first time viewing thread. Title history on Wikipedia shows Otani forfeiting the WWF junior title on 10/05/97 at their request, but it looks like Liger dropped the IWGP junior title to Samurai on July 6. What was the October match?

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If Otani wasn't going over here, why do this match so soon?

The guys who had IWGP/J Crown title shots since the last time Otani challenged:

 

The Great Sasuke (Δ)

Black Tiger

Shiryu

Masayoshi Motegi

El Samurai

Ultimo Dragon

Ultimo Dragon (Δ)

Dean Malenko (WCW Nitro)

Rey Misterio Jr. (WCW World War III PPV)

Gran Naniwa

Rey Misterio Jr.

Masayoshi Motegi

Dean Malenko (WCW Starcade)

Jushin Liger (WCW Nitro)

Jushin Liger (Δ)

 

A title defense in New Japan, it's pretty much Koji and Shinji's turn. Sammy got a shot in there. Benoit wasn't really working New Japan much. Eddy was pretty much WCW as well. In fact, they would only have one further combined challenge for the title after Eddy's one at Sky Diving J in 1996. Kind of cool who he was brought back to put over.

 

 

As much as I loved it, Otani lost to Samurai in January the year before. Then he lost to Liger (three days after beating Benoit) in March. Then he lost in the semis at the J Crown to Ultimo. Then he lost to Liger here. That doesn't sound like someone being set up for a big title run. It sounds like someone who can't get a meaningful win over a native.

Shinji was 23 years old when he challenged the year before, and hadn't even hit his 4th anniversary as a wrestler. He's 24 when this match happens, and hadn't hit his 5th anniversary. He wins the title just past his 25th birthday, and had been working for just over 5 years.

 

Keichii Yamada

Debut: 03-03-1984

Title Challenges:

07/19/86 lost to Nobuhiko Takada

06/10/88 lost to Owen Hart

12/09/88 lost to Shiro Koshinaka

05/25/89 beat Hiroshi Hase

 

Two years to his first challenge. Won the title on his 4th attempt, just after his 5th anniversary.

 

Shinjiro Otani

Debut: 06-25-1992

Title Challenges:

10/30/94 lost to Norio Honaga

04/16/95 lost to Koji Kanemoto

03/17/96 lost to Jushin Liger

02/09/97 lost to Jushin Liger

08/10/97 beat El Samurai

 

Two years to his first challenge. Won the title on his 5th attempt, just after his 5th anniversary.

 

Not bad lining up so well with the greatest junior that ever lived. More so when considering they cleared the field for Liger (Hase and Kosh both moved up to heavy), while Otani not only had the established King in the division but also a rival in Koji who was higher on the pecking order.

 

 

Liger is frankly quicker on giving wins to lower ranked guys than say Baba is. :)

Liger liked to play the bitch?

Liger cleanly jobbed to people, then beat them cleanly in rematches. Then again, he might have been playing the bitch in beating Sano with his feet on the ropes, or regaining the title from Dragon when Sammy ran in to damage Dragon's knee, or beating Sammy for the title wither a reverse cradle and a handful of tights, or winning this match when Sammy and Black Tiger and Pegasus ran in for the DQ, or retained over Koji this month via the Liger Finish. ;)

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Even with all the hype Childs and Loss gave this match, I was expecting to be let down. I was wrong and it is either this/ Liger vs. Sano/ or Liger vs. Sasuke from July 94 as my favorite japan junior match of the decade so far. I really enjoyed how this match mixed in a heavyweight structure build and sprinkled in the junior spots. Otani really plays his role well. He is overconfident and cocky but sympathetic at the same time. Liger is a flawed character in this match to as someone who may be too reliant on certain aspects and unwilling to change with the times. THat narrative provided an engaging story to compliment the wonderful action. The finishing sequence may be one of the best I have ever seen and Otani really had to tow the line with those palm strikes from making it look ridiculous and goofy. My #2 match of the year and if this falls out of the top 7-8 this year, we are in for a loaded year.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 1 year later...

I thought this was a fantastic, brilliant match...I'm just not quite as high on it as everyone else here. I saw a terrific match, but I still think Otani-Samurai told this similar story in slightly better fashion. And yet there's almost nothing I can criticize--I think the only tangible reason I can find for "only" rating this in the ****1/4-****1/2 range is that while the story was well-done and drawn-out, I didn't get the sense of surprise twists and turns that I got on 1/20/97, or in similar efforts like Shawn vs. Mankind and the RWTL '96 final. Both men go after body parts, both men unleash big moves, Otani's emotions get the better of him...it's conventional, and while convention is good, but it doesn't often lead to a true transcendent feeling in watching a match, either. The ending is phenomenal--I can't get the hand-wringing over Liger's palm strike as a finisher because he delivers it so well that I totally buy it as a KO, and Otani's progressive selling of the repeated strikes is fabulous. It's your #2 MOTY to this point, which is not a bad place to be.

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  • 1 year later...

Odd how nobody mentions Ohtani blowing off Liger's legwork during the first part, Sasuke would have got hell for this. Apart from that, this was fantastic. Liger clearly had toned down the flying by that point and is still great. He's all about the shotei. Ohtani had matured somewhat, he wasn't your crazy young lion he used to be and was still one of the best wrestler in the world. Fantastic match that built and built until Liger gets a bit too arrogant, lets Ohtani sleep in a comeback before the final shotei barrage and the final pin which looked terrific. MOTYC and certainly one of the best junior match of the decade.

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  • 5 weeks later...

Unusually there weren't any highspots in the opening 15m. It was primarily matwork with some strikes thrown in. Whilst being fundamentally sound the work was quite dry and the fans didn't seem that invested in the rivalry initially. The build served its purpose, but in itself wasn't special. They then picked up the pace significantly and brought out all the stops. Liger's offence was no longer cutting edge so the focus was primarily on Ohtani's antics and desperation. Which is no bad place to be. Plus his German is a work of beauty. I'm never a bit fan of the shotei as a finisher. I'm not feeling this as a MOTYC, more like top 50. But hey, every year has widely praised matches I like rather than love.

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  • 4 months later...

http://placetobenation.com/countdown-top-500-matches-of-the-90s-50-1/

 

#44

 

This was great. I actually really liked the finish. All the big dramatic striking that led to the finishing shotei looked awesome. I prefer the Sano match(es) that are great to this one, and HBK/Mankind - only mentioning because they were compared above. But, anyway... fantastic ... around ****1/4 to ****1/2 for me.

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  • 5 months later...

It really does feel like the perfect middle match between the 3/96 match and a match that never happened, although I must say I liked the clipped version of one of their 1998 matches

 

Agree with this. A third match where Ohtani managed to put all the pieces together and beat Liger by combining skill with emotional maturity would have capped off the narrative perfectly.

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  • 3 months later...

Oh man was this amazing. I went into this match having only seen one Otani match (the wonderful Ultimo Dragon match) and a smattering of Liger matches (mostly his American stuff but also the El Samurai wonder). Being mostly cold about these two, I did not expect to get as invested as I did in this match. They start off with a handshake but the intensity really just does not let up for a second in this match. They made their lock ups intense, I loved the struggles going on in the corners, and all the matwork and selling looked great too. This up tempo energy meant that once the big moves started coming up, I was going insane. Big dives to the outside followed by frankensteiner attempts, fisherman busters, then that gorgeous palm strike. Beautiful moments in Otani struggling to knock Liger off the top even as Liger swats him away. Then that fantastic final stand off as Otani tries to power through one final onslaught and fails.

 

Was not expecting to go this high on it but this is an easy *****.

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  • GSR changed the title to [1997-02-09-NJPW] Jushin Liger vs Shinjiro Otani
  • 6 months later...

I flip flop on this more than probably any match I've ever seen. Loved it first time, didn't really like it second time, thought it was great last time, didn't really care this time. It's not even that I think it's bad because I wouldn't say that at all. I was just wholly apathetic towards it.

The standard criticism of juniors matches is that the early part of most matches ends up being perfunctory because it's filled with time-killing matwork or whatever, then they'll flip the switch when they get to that point in the match where TV will pick it up. I don't even like using that as a stick with which to beat these matches now because it's certainly not something you only see the New Japan juniors do. Like, is seven minutes of matwork any less connected from the rest of the match than Ricky Steamboat using armdrags and armbars before the heel takes over? Because how often does the arm actually play into the rest of those Steamboat matches? Do the juniors matches take more of a whipping because a lot of what they're doing feels like they're going through the motions before they hit the TV part? Does it feel directionless, while Steamboat working an arm at least feels like a strategy? Who knows, but it's almost so ingrained as a criticism against 90s New Japan juniors now that I'm wondering if the pendulum hasn't swung too far. So naturally that was one of my biggest issues with this.

The first half had lots of gritty matwork and some real niggliness and they use that to further the already-established story going in -- the story of Ohtani finally beating the big dog and proving he's one of the top guys. There was some ropey stuff like Liger trying to work Ohtani's leg and Ohtani just not bothering to acknowledge it, but Ohtani mostly worked on top by going after the arm and I liked the parts where he'd get super belligerent and uncooperative and refuse to let Liger take over. This was his night and he could be as rough as anyone, so of course it was great when he'd just slap Liger in the face as a cut-off. Ohtani's matwork looked mean and the stuff with the arm was mostly quite nasty, like when he'd just dig a knee into Liger's ankle joint before going back to the arm and do the same to the elbow joint. Liger sold it fine as well and I liked the selling where he'd really stretch it out and shake it around whilst applying his own hold to Ohtani.  I see the similarities to Misawa/Kobashi from the previous month, especially with Ohtani trying to take out Liger's arm, and by extension the shotei (analogous to Misawa's elbows). And again there's also the story of Ohtani (Kobashi) trying to step level with The Man (Misawa). So the first half was fine and probably even good but...I just wasn't bothered. No real interest, no real investment.

Then they went into the second half finishing run, but I either didn't think there was much of a bridge between the two halves or the bridge they did use fell flat. I'm not really sure. I just sort of thought, "okay, I guess we're past the matwork and now it's time for the drama." It was more jarring a shift than usual. Liger pretty much gave up with the arm selling and we got a whole bunch of hokey Ohtani facial expressions. There was one spot as well where Liger powerbombed him on the floor that initially I really liked, almost as a fuck you to Ohtani yanking at his limbs for a while there, but then about ten seconds later Ohtani was hitting his own powerbomb on the floor as if it wasn't even a thing. Like, your random NXT Takeover show will run spots like that and they'll feel way more consequential. Maybe Velveteen Dream is better than Jushin Liger (this is a joke, obviously (is it though?!))? Finishing stretch itself had lots of cool stuff and built drama well, and is probably about as "deep" in terms of playing off previous matches as you'll get with the juniors. Maybe those callbacks and bits of learned psychology add to the All Japan comparisons. They play off the finish to their 3/96 match, play off big spots from Ohtani's past failures against Ultimo Dragon, really drive the point home that Ohtani has grown and learned from those experiences and is better equipped now to survive the same adversities. Liger's palm strikes being his great equaliser is also very cool and I guess some more shades of All Japan/Misawa if you want to look at it like that. Ohtani being belligerent and defiant to the end is a nice finish too. Don't be dick-swinging like a big shot and expect Liger not to cave your face in. I guess objectively this was good and it had lots of cool intricacies and subtleties, but it's whatever. I'll probably love it when I rewatch it in 2024. 
 

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  • 1 month later...

J-Crown Champion Jushin Thunder Liger vs Shinjiro Otani - NJPW 2/9/97

Jushin Liger's take on King's Road. Otani opens as characteristic with his overly dramatic handshake. Austin says you can predict how good a match will be based on the lock up. Well that's a ***** lock up. Great drive in the legs. I have seen this match twice before loved it both times. To call this Mitsuharu Liger vs Shinjiro Kobashi sounds insulting, but it feels that way. It is a bit inaccurate. Ohtani sort of combines the prickly wrestling style of Kawada with this histrionics of Kobashi. Ohtani challenges Liger to come off the ropes and hits a spin kick. He shows some high Wrestling IQ there, but applauds himself instead of following up. Liger dropkicks the knee and zeros in on the leg with his classic inverted deathlock. Another thing separates this match from King's Road is the commitment to double limb psychology and mat works for the first half of the match. The match is also nasty. Liger is repeatedly kneedropping the bad leg and putting boot on the face of Ohtani in the corner. Ohtani fires up in the corner and he bootscrapes Liger. There is definitely a lot of heat here. Liger tries to go back to the knee to quell this rally, but Ohtani fires back with some head rocking shots. Then much like Misawa's mythical elbow, Liger's Shotei bails him out of trouble as he unloads with palm strikes from both wings as Ohtani is trapped in the corner. With Ohtani reeling, Liger goes back to the knee. Ohtani escapes and rubs his forearm bone in the face and grabs a top wristlock then begins to zero in on the left arm of Liger. Why? That Shotei! A very similar strategy that many of Misawa's opponents would use to neutralize the vaunted Emerald Elbow.  

This is a good change of pace from the perfunctory matwork that usually fills time at the beginning of New Japan matches each man is working a limb with strong selling from both men. Liger is a really expressive seller both verbally and physically even though he is masked. There is one toehold that Ohtani applies with his knee across the ankle, my God you think Liger was having acid poured on it. Great stuff! This allows Ohtani take Liger back down with an armbar. Ohtani cross-armbreaker! Liger gets the ropes immediately but continues the verbal selling as Ohtani would relinquish the hold. Ohanti is standing on the face and throat of Liger. I like how chippy this is. Ohtani throws him in the corner. He crowds him and bullies him. He is just hitting him with these big open handed blows. He is trying to make a statement. Those nasty bootscrapes in the corner, but no running facewash instead of giving Liger one moment to breathe while running, he brings out and drops him with a Single Arm DDT. Wise move. He wants the Cross Armbreaker, but settles for snapping it over his shoulder and Liger sells this like a million bucks. 

I think my one criticism of this match as I am watching it for a second time today is the lack of escalation and big time transitions to make this feel really epic. Ohtani's arm work is really tight and fierce and he is adding in good prickly work, but there is not a sense that he is building to a big arm submission. Liger for his part sells wicked well and he goes back to the leg enough for his hope spots to tie back to the beginning. He wrenches in some toeholds as the man fighting underneath I think he does his job expertly.  When Ohtani applies the Crossface it does not feel like a nearfall, but just another hold even though it is tight same goes for the noogie to the arm. All great work, but does not feel huge. 

When I was watching earlier today, I knew around the 15 minute time call, they were going to start busting out the bombs. There were no highspots in the first 15 minutes. Liger starts nailing Shoteis in the corner (great fighting through the pain selling), Kappo Kick (instead of the Shotei he hits the Kappo Kick) and then the trademark Superman Dive from the top rope to the floor and then the powerbomb on the floor. The Powerbombs (Ohtani hits one too) on the floor and the whip to railing feels very All Japan. Liger swatting Ohtani out of the way of a springboard dropkick feels All Japan too, but the immediate La Magistral cradle feels more Juniorish and gives it a hybrid vibe. I like them trading nearfall cradles here.  Liger hits a Frankensteiner but Ohtani rolls through. Liger goes for the German, but Ohtani lands on his feet. Still too early and Ohtani immediately pounces with a spinning heel kick. The best sequence of the match so far. It feels sudden and unpredictable. I like how Ohtani hits a snap German suplex right afterwards. He didnt go for the release. He is not taking any chances. Here comes those Ohtani histrionics as he is psyching himself up and makes the cardinal mistake of Irish Whipping your opponent. He gave Liger free space and Liger NAILS a lariat, but with the bad arm. Great selling by Liger as he cant capitalize. Liger hits his first big bomb a Ligerbomb for two and Ohtani is definitely on Weird Street as Kal Rudman would say. Ohtani has a great sell of this on the apron as Liger pulls him in. Liger wants the brainbuster, but Ohtani struggles against. The Suplex Struggle is a trademark All Japan spot. Ohtani floats over and it is another snap German. Loving his take on the German. He is lying in wait. Liger makes it to his feet BANG! Springboard Dropkick to the back. Premature celebration. Ohtani thinks he has it in the bag. Dragon Suplex 1-2-NO! Here come the waterworks! Ohtani is beside himself. Ohtani still calling out to the crowd. He wants another Dragon Suplex, but Liger scrambles for the ropes. Ohtani trying to fight, but Liger breaks free. SHOTEI~! Ohtani takes a wicked bump for this! 1-2-NO! Big time nearfall! Liger hits two Fisherman Busters, would have liked to seen more struggle there as Ohtani is ragdolling. On the third bomb, a Brainbuster, Ohtani reverses his weight. Ohtani puts Liger on the top, which is dumb never give your opponent the high ground. He tries desperately to scale the ropes but three times Liger knocks him down. On the fourth try, he hits a barrage of headbutts and a Frankensteiner. Well fuck me, it worked out for the little bastard, but at what cost. SPRINGBOARD HEEL KICK! 1-2-NO! Ohtani had a weird reaction to this. He acted like he won, but he clearly didnt. He collapses. He just keeps covering Liger. He is in denial. Ohtani hit him with his best shots and he cant beat the Beast God. Liger collapses trying to get up. Ohtani goes for another Dragon Suplex, but Liger breaks free...SHOTEI~! Ohtani sticks his chin out. Now they are channeling Choshu/Hashimoto. Liger hits the MUTHA OF ALL SHOTEI! 1-2-3! Jushin Thunder Liger retains!

The finishing stretch is truly great one of the best Liger has ever crafted in his matches. Ohtani gets TWO big time runs late and both times you feel like he has a really strong shot to dethrone the Ace. Liger uses the Shotei twice to break free from the Dragon Suplex and turn it back to his favor. The first Ohtani transition landing on his feet on a release German followed by a spinning heel kick was genius. The second one did not feel earned or big. The beginning of the match I really liked and it made a lot of sense. Ohtani going after the arm to prevent the Shotei was smart and Liger going after the legs of Ohtani who uses two springboard moves also smart. Let's be honest if we JIP to Liger splashing off the top rope to the floor do we need to the know the beginning of the match. I say not really besides some arm wringing by Liger it is not that important. This is a small nitpicky complaint because I thought transitioned well between the two and the work was high end. I thought they do a strong narrative of the extremely talented, but immature upstart challenger against the veteran champion with the great equalizer (the Shotei) incredibly well. After much deliberation, I am going to say it falls just shy of ***** for me, ****3/4, still I think this will make my Top 100 matches of all time. 

 

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