Jaaawn Cena

[Log]

I think we all agree that Cena has been in waaaaay too many great matches to be considered a shitty wrestler. But this quote from Dylan...

 

Cena is one of the best big match wrestlers in wrestling history at this point. Just felt like saying that.

 

...should really be discussed further.

 

I definitely agree with that statement. I'm wondering where we think he ranks against all promotions, and in particular, where he ranks against other WWE/F guys.

 

I mean, his run on top has been way longer than Austin and Rock's. I guess about as long as Hogan's. Longer than Hart and HBK, too. Bruno was on top longer, but (I'm guessing) doesn't have the quality matches Cena has had.

 

He's amassed a pretty long list of really good/great matches in his time on top. All of them have pretty much been main events, too.

 

What I'm getting at, is how does he stack up in terms of match quality with his peers as "big match" guys?

[Loss]

Moving this to The Microscope.

[Log]

Alright, here's what I can come up with as far as pimped big matches for Cena...

 

John Cena vs. Edge (TLC) (Unforgiven 9/17/06)

John Cena vs. Umaga (Rumble 1/28/07)

John Cena vs. Shawn Michaels (WM 4/1/07)

John Cena vs. HBK (RAW 4/23/07)

John Cena vs. HBK vs. Edge vs. Randy Orton (Backlash 4/29/07)

John Cena vs. Bobby Lashley (GAB 7/22/07)

John Cena vs. Randy Orton (Summerslam 8/26/07)

Randy Orton vs. John Cena (No Way Out 2/17/08)

John Cena vs. Chris Jericho (Armageddon 12/14/08)

John Cena vs. Randy Orton (I Quit Match) (PPV 9/13/09)

John Cena vs. Randy Orton (Ironman Match) (PPV 10/25/09)

Batista vs. John Cena (Mania 3/28/10)

CM Punk vs. John Cena (MITB 7/17/11)

CM Punk vs. John Cena (SSlam 8/15/11)

John Cena vs. Alberto Del Rio (Last Man Standing) (Vengeance 10/23/11)

John Cena vs. Brock Lesnar (Extreme Rules 4/29/12)

John Cena vs. CM Punk (Raw 2/25/13)

John Cena vs. Daniel Bryan (Summerslam 8/18/13)

 

There may be more I'm missing. Pretty much went with GH's MOTYC Comps. Stuff that made it on there was pretty widely pimped at the time.

[Dylan Waco]

I thought Cena was outstanding in the Elimination Chamber where Edge cashed in after at New Years Revolution. Things like the RVD and HHH matches aren't at the level of the stuff above, but had intangible qualities that you only expect out of guys who understand how to work "big." The Khali match from JD is as good a carry job as I've ever seen in wrestling. I LOVE the Henry match from this year. The JBL JD brawl felt like the first time where he was really the man and was an extremely strong match for the style it was worked in. Really every match he's had with Punk has been at least very good. He was great v. Ziggler at TLC last year. I thought he was awesome as the FIP in the Shield six-man ppv match earlier this year. The Rey title switch in 2011 from RAW was one of the best tv matches of the last couple of years. I loved the Big Show feud a few years back which had two excellent tv matches. The Edge LMS match was really great and extremely underrated. That's all off the cuff without looking at a match list or even thinking about it all that hard. Honestly there is a shitload of Cena stuff that I think is very good and a large amount of stuff that I think is really great.

 

As a WWE main eventer I think the reflexive answer for a lot of people is that there is no way he could be better than someone like Bret (or even Shawn in a lot of quarters), but to be perfectly honest someone would have to sell me on the idea of Bret being better at this point. Obviously if you don't think Cena has had great matches you will disagree with this, but IF you do think Cena has had as many strong matches as I think he's had and you are a "great match" advocate when it comes to analyzing wrestlers Cena is near the very top of his era and is someone that I could completely buy as a top thirty level guy

[Eduardo]

I really feel the first Umaga match (from a few weeks before the LMS) is really overlooked. An excellent babyface ace vs athletic monster heel bout that would make a good double-feature with Lawler-Blackwell.

[NintendoLogic]

I'll give my thoughts later, but I think the I Quit match with JBL and the RVD match from ONS definitely belong on a list of consensus great Cena matches.

[Dylan Waco]

I'll give my thoughts later, but I think the I Quit match with JBL and the RVD match from ONS definitely belong on a list of consensus great Cena matches.

I wouldn't argue against either. There are things about both matches that I don't like as much as some of the absolute best stuff Cena's done, but I think both are iconic matches in their own way and massive parts of the Cena career "story."

[Matt D]

He's a hell of a FIP. Just saying.

[Exposer]

Cena is absolutely a strong contender for best "big match" wrestler ever. Just from 2007 he had the Umaga, HBK, Khali, Lashley, & Orton matches. With both Umaga and HBK he had two outstanding matches with. I love the JBL "I Quit" match too and I think it was the first great Cena "big match." It was also one of the last really gruesome bloodbaths the company ever had. I think both Jericho matches from late 08 were "big matches." They were very, very good. I also think the main reason Cena's so excellent in the "big match" setting is his ability to show vulnerability for his size and play the underdog against various monsters. His selling and mannerisms are usually phenomenal in these settings.

[Matt D]

Obviously this note should really be about how Arn Anderson is the best big match agent ever instead.

[soup23]

I also really enjoy the Batista Summerslam 2008 match as it had a Ultimate Challenge dream match feel to it.

 

Cena is a bit odd for me because I can argue that I have seen perhaps his two worst performances as a big match wrestler live (vs. Miz WM 27, vs. Rock WM 29).

[Jimmy Redman]

Full disclosure, I am probably THE biggest Cena fan to inhabit these parts of the internet wrestling universe. So this is an excellent topic.

 

I'm going to expand on the above list to create what I think would be a pretty comprehensive "Great John Cena Matches" list, from the start of his main event run, just because I'd have to actually stop and think about stuff pre-2005.

 

_______________________

 

Cena vs JBL, I Quit - Judgment Day 2005

Cena vs Chris Jericho - Summerslam 2005 (the first "Cena reaction" match)

Cena vs Chris Jericho, Loser Leaves Town - Raw 22nd August 2005

Cena vs Angle vs Michaels - Taboo Tuesday 2005

 

WWE Title Elimination Chamber Match - New Year's Revolution 2006

Cena vs Triple H - Wrestlemania 22

Cena vs Triple H vs Edge - Backlash 2006

Cena vs RVD - One Night Stand 2

Cena vs RVD vs Edge - Raw 3rd July 2006 (title switch)

Cena vs Edge - Summerslam 2006

Cena vs Edge, TLC - Unforgiven 2006

Cena vs Edge, Cage Match - Raw 2nd October 2006

Cena vs Finlay - Smackdown 15th December 2006

 

Cena vs Kevin Federline - Raw 1st January 2007 (outrageously fun sports entertainment style shit)

Cena vs Umaga - New Year's Revolution 2007

Cena vs Umaga, Last Man Standing - Royal Rumble 2007

Cena & Michaels vs Undertaker & Batista - No Way Out 2007

Cena vs Shawn Michaels - Wrestlemania 23

Cena vs Shawn Michaels - Raw 23rd April 2007

Cena vs Michaels vs Edge vs Orton - Backlash 2007

Cena vs Great Khali - Judgment Day 2007

Cena vs Great Khali, Falls Count Anywhere - One Night Stand 2007

Cena vs Khali vs Umaga - Raw 4th June 2007

Cena vs Bobby Lashley - Great American Bash 2007

Cena vs Randy Orton - Summerslam 2007

 

Cena vs Randy Orton - No Way Out 2008

Cena vs Batista - Summerslam 2008

Cena vs Chris Jericho - Survivor Series 2008 (I like this better than Armageddon, and actually all their other matches)

Cena vs Chris Jericho - Armageddon 2008

 

Cena vs Shawn Michaels - Raw 12th January 2009

World Title Elimination Chamber Match - No Way Out 2009

Cena vs Big Show - Smackdown 27th February 2009

Cena vs Edge, Last Man Standing - Backlash 2009

Cena vs Randy Orton, I Quit - Breaking Point 2009

Cena vs Randy Orton, Ironman - Bragging Rights 2009

 

Cena vs Batista, Wrestlemania 26

Cena vs Batista, Last Man Standing, Extreme Rules 2010

Cena vs Batista, I Quit, Over the Limit 2010

Cena & Bourne vs Edge & Sheamus - Raw 31st May 2010

Cena vs Wade Barrett - Hell in a Cell 2010

Cena vs Dolph Ziggler - Raw 20th December 2010 (the 'Vickie has nuclear heat' match)

 

Raw Elimination Chamber Match - Elimination Chamber 2011

Cena vs CM Punk - Money in the Bank 2011

Cena vs Rey Mysterio - Raw 25th July 2011

Cena vs CM Punk - Summerslam 2011

Cena vs CM Punk - Raw 22nd August 2011

Cena vs Alberto Del Rio, Last Man Standing - Vengeance 2011 (broken ring match)

 

Cena vs The Rock - Wrestlemania 28 (am I the only one who rates it?)

Cena vs Brock Lesnar - Extreme Rules 2012

Cena vs Big Show - Raw 30th July 2012

Cena vs CM Punk - Night of Champions 2012

Cena vs Dolph Ziggler, Ladder - TLC 2012

Cena vs Alberto Del Rio, Christmas Street Fight - Raw 24th December 2012 (for the lulz)

 

Cena & Sheamus & Ryback vs The Shield - Elimination Chamber 2013

Cena vs CM Punk - Raw 25th February 2013

Cena & Bryan & Kane vs The Shield - Raw 29th April 2013 (Cena was GREAT in this)

Cena & Bryan & Kane vs The Shield, Elimination Rules - Raw 13th May 2013

Cena vs Mark Henry - Money in the Bank 2013

Cena vs Daniel Bryan - Summerslam 2013

 

Thats all I got off the top of my head. I'd argue all of them are great matches, or at the very least Cena is great in them.

[Migs]

I think it might be a bit unfair to use sheer number of good big matches to compare Cena to WWE guys from earlier eras. The sheer number of PPVs, combined with his length of time at the top, has given him far more opportunities to have big matches than most guys. You really can't compare Cena's body of work to anyone's before the In Your House era. I think we can agree Randy Savage would have done an insane number of awesome main event matches had there been more PPVs to main event.

 

As pointed out above, Austin and Rock had shorter runs at the top. I would argue those guys had pretty good batting averages in the big matches, though. Bret was also only a true main eventer for 4-5 years in WWE, and I think most would put him on a similar level to Austin/Rock.

 

So, who can Cena really be compared to?

 

Undertaker - had way too many stretches in which he was terrible

HHH - a ton of great ones, but probably more stinkers than Cena

Shawn Michaels

Edge

Chris Jericho

 

I think eventually we'll be able to have this conversation about Punk and Cena, if they can stay at the main event level for a while.

[Log]

I think it might be a bit unfair to use sheer number of good big matches to compare Cena to WWE guys from earlier eras. The sheer number of PPVs, combined with his length of time at the top, has given him far more opportunities to have big matches than most guys. You really can't compare Cena's body of work to anyone's before the In Your House era. I think we can agree Randy Savage would have done an insane number of awesome main event matches had there been more PPVs to main event.

That's true. I just think it's pretty much a given that most wrestling fans, when posed with the question "Who had more great main events? Bret Hart or John Cena?", the overwhelming response would be Hart. I think people have come around on the whole "Cena can't wrestle" thing, but he still doesn't get the credit he's due for his work.

[Matt D]

I think it might be a bit unfair to use sheer number of good big matches to compare Cena to WWE guys from earlier eras. The sheer number of PPVs, combined with his length of time at the top, has given him far more opportunities to have big matches than most guys. You really can't compare Cena's body of work to anyone's before the In Your House era. I think we can agree Randy Savage would have done an insane number of awesome main event matches had there been more PPVs to main event.

That's true. I just think it's pretty much a given that most wrestling fans, when posed with the question "Who had more great main events? Bret Hart or John Cena?", the overwhelming response would be Hart. I think people have come around on the whole "Cena can't wrestle" thing, but he still doesn't get the credit he's due for his work.

 

Pretty simply it's because most wrestling fans don't appreciate the things he does well. Or at least they don't realize that they appreciate those things.

[JerryvonKramer]

Was thinking a bit about Cena earlier because I remain convinced that the fans who really hate him have been worked to the max by WWE since about 2006. To the max.

 

Where things become a bit strange with Cena is that the people who hate him fail to draw a distinction between not liking the man and giving him his due as a worker.

 

My view is that this is just an evolution of kayfabe -- these are fans who think they are smart are actually getting worked very successfully. The WWE have been really clever at this, they've turned the fact that the business has been exposed back into a work itself somehow. So a "smart" perspective like "Cena can't work" becomes a marketing tool in itself. Do you know they are selling anti-Cena T-shirts and merch now? They never even sold anti-heel merch back in the day.

[Loss]

I think there is this irrational mindset among Attitude Era fans that John Cena is the reason wrestling sucks now, and maybe even that he's the reason the boom years ended. Like, if he left, suddenly we'd have a return to the glory days of Steve Austin and The Rock. I think deep down, that's the source of most of the heat he gets.

[KrisZ]

A lot of it is guys who want Cena to turn heel and he won't do it. Cena is also so smooth in how he handles the boos and jeers that he upsets them even more because he won't get rattled.

[JerryvonKramer]

A lot of it is guys who want Cena to turn heel and he won't do it. Cena is also so smooth in how he handles the boos and jeers that he upsets them even more because he won't get rattled.

This is what I mean Kris, he's working them, those fans are getting worked like the proper marks that they are. If they were that pissed off, they'd stop watching. I can't think of any criteria by which those fans are not getting properly worked old-school style.

[NintendoLogic]

With Bret, it's also worth noting that most of his great matches weren't main events. In fact, during his run as a main eventer, he wasn't actually in the main event all that often.

[MJH]

Cena is vastly under-rated by a lot of people (though less so here), but I don't see how anyone can say he was better than Steve Austin in almost any facet as a WWE Main Eventer.

 

As for Bret, he was never a "big match wrestler", really. I mean, he has them, but a lot of his best stuff like Mania vs. Owen, KOTR vs. Hennig, etc, aren't "big" matches at all. Cena's a better WWE "top star/ace" in a lot of ways - though not in all - but whereas with Bret's best stuff I can follow his train of thought, I could commentate the story through, I don't get that from many of Cena's matches. I've enjoyed Cena's stuff with Punk, for instance, but I couldn't talk you through their intentions (as I read them, anyway); they don't quite "make sense" in the same way. I suppose it depends on the person how much they value that cerebral-ness in a "big match" (Cena's matches frequently, if not almost always, feel like a big deal), but, for me at least, it's a failing of a lot of those matches.

[tim]

I think I rate Cena higher than a lot of people even around these parts. His "big match" ability cannot be denied, but I think he's also often been great in smaller matches. During the Miz feud in 2009, for example, on their first PPV match they work an established star vs. upstart in over his head opening and Cena is absolutely brilliant in it, with his facial expressions, body language and they wa he schooled Miz with a chain/mat wrestling combo that was so crisp and forceful that you can only meet the idea that Cena has no 'technical ability' with incredulity. He has tons of awesome TV matches like the Rey title match on RAW, a Daniel Bryan match on RAW from 2 years back or so, and many more.

 

For a guy who's so great at big matches you'd think his skills are in the "macro" aspects of wrestling: expressive selling, big move sequences, etc, but Cena is awesome at "the small stuff," like low-key facial expressions at certain moments where they aren't even highlighted or subtle selling of little things throughout the match. More than a couple times he's done the Misawa "roll out of the ring to avoid a pin/further offense" which is very become of his "ace" role, and I remember in his MITB match vs. Punk, Punk sort of botches a crossbody and lands more on Cena's leg, and Cena covers it by scootching to the apron and holding his knee. Heck, maybe that wasn't "selling," but it sure came off as a great ad-hoc thing to do to make a "botch" something meaningful in the match. There are tons of examples of that stuff throughout Cena matches, both his big matches and his nothing TV matches.

 

I guess consistency is Cena's biggest issue but by virtue of being the #1 guy he's both given awesome opportunities to show off how good he is and also placed into long, shitty programs without much of a chance for good matches. I think at his best he's as good as a lot of Top 50 of all time guys.

[Superstar Sleeze]

So I was playing tennis tonight and I still have to flesh this out, but I think I had quite the revelation. I predict that in 30 years or so wrestling fans will view John Cena much in the same way we look at Bob Backlund. Both men had considerably long tenures on top of the WWF doing admirably jobs keeping business afloat. Backlund was not the draw that Bruno or Hogan was, but it is not like business was in the toilet or the WWF was close to folding. In the same way, since the Attitude Era, WWE has just been plugging along as a profitable company. It is not going to close up shop anytime, soon but Cena has kept the business going. Both men are incredibly goofy in the ring in their mannerisms, how they move and do just about anything. Bob had his goofy side headlocks, Cena has his comeback with that ridiculous looking slam. Both men are underrated in their in-ring efforts and how they are able to present unique, entertaining main events because they do not fall neatly into the workrate-oriented mindset. Finally, the biggest common thread is that both are the ultimate goody-too-shoes. Backlund was Howdy Doody made out to be some joke because how vanilla and goofy he was. Cena, for all their attempts to make him an amalgamation of Hogan, Austin & Rock, has become the modern equivalent standing up for respect, manners and what's right. Fans want him to cave into his baser instincts and just be a prick and disrespectful. Cena has too much moral fiber and will not cave to moral fiber. I want to flesh this out more, but I think you can make a really good case for John Cena as the Modern Day Equivalent of Bob Backlund.

[Jimmy Redman]

Cena's a better WWE "top star/ace" in a lot of ways - though not in all - but whereas with Bret's best stuff I can follow his train of thought, I could commentate the story through, I don't get that from many of Cena's matches. I've enjoyed Cena's stuff with Punk, for instance, but I couldn't talk you through their intentions (as I read them, anyway)

I could.

 

I wrote up a piece HERE on Cena/Punk from February that basically walks through their intentions. I've done detailed bits on all their previous matches as well, but I don't remember how narrative based they were off hand.

 

One that immediately comes to mind is the small novel I wrote on Rock vs Cena I, which was all about the way the match built from Cena's end:

The opening lock ups and shove downs were so great. This is the easiest match in the world. Cena was like the most subtle heel who ever worked here. He did nothing suspect of course, but he was cocky when he got the first drop, then shocked when he was knocked down himself, he powdered out when he was taking too much offense, and then took over using the ringside area and got heat on Rock. A superface subtle heel. Loved the running shoulders into that sweet ass LARIAT. I just cannot say it enough: Cena, more lariats please.

 

A bear hug! Cena is Mark Henry! Actually the way that Cena worked this match was really remarkable. He’s the superhero who usually sells extensively for a comeback, or maybe sometimes works an even back-and-forth sporting contest (say, Punk vs Cena). But here, in this match, Cena was something he’s never really been before: dominant. He was the power guy working over the babyface. In that way it was quite unique, and I think really played out the story of the build in the ring in a cool way: Cena is, in fact, on The Rock’s level, and at the moment actually has the upper hand over him for whatever reason.The other thing about the bear hug I noticed is how it ended. Cena, who had been all business since the excitement of the opening bell, stopped for a second to smirk at whatever the crowd was chanting at that particular moment, leaving him open for Rock to start punching his way out. Cena’s ego (Hubris? Cheekiness? Heel side?) cost him the advantage, which was incredible foreshadowing for later on.

 

Jesus were they clobbering each other with some of these shots too. Working so stiff was another little addition making it more than the average match. LOVED the sequence of Rock’s comeback, Spinebuster, and People’s Elbow attempt only for Cena to trip him up, hit his comeback and nail the Five Knuckle Shuffle. The Yay/Boo exchange after this ruled (and again they added some real variety with their angles and selling to make it special) and Rock doing his mocking “U Cant See Me” right into BAMFUMOTHERF*CKER was AWESOME. Completely awesome. Then the flash Rock Bottom in response and thats basically the reset button for Act II.

 

Cena being so deliberate going up top, and just patiently waiting and waiting to NAIL the Leg Drop was great. He was back to Serious Business Cena now and it was paying dividends again. But wait, a spear and Sharpshooter time! The subs here were so strange, I think mainly for the fact that nobody could believe that either guy would tap. Although having said that, I thought they did an excellent job selling the teased stoppage on Rock in the STF. The possibility actually crossed my mind, if only because the Bret/Austin finish was referenced on the show. Cena doing the Sunset Flip into the STF was pretty cool too. And finally Rock hits the Spinebuster, this time its for real, and BAM, PEOPLE’S ELBOW! KICKOUT!

 

Loved Cena busting out all these rollups trying to get a win, and similarly, as Rock climbed to the top rope people were all standing up in unison because Rock never climbs to the top rope, but he too was searching for something extra. When he did I knew what must have been coming, and sho’ nuff, he jumps and IS CAUGHT, rollthrough, lurch up, FU Mother F*cker. And KICK OUT. Then it all comes down to this moment. Cena sees him there, the new-found Edgy Douchebag Cena kicks into gear, and he kicks the arms. He tosses the armband. He smirks, he points, he runs, he bounces, he GETS ROCK BOTTOMED AND PINNED. Sh*t.

 

The finish bummed me the hell out live, because you know me, I’m Team Cena, and he’d especially been so great during the build that I really did want him to win. But the more you think about it, the more interesting the finish becomes. Firstly, it was utter genius in that Cena’s one moment of douchebaggery cost him the biggest match of his life. Is it a sign that he was wrong all along to be edgy and douchey instead of the pure white bread superface he’s always been? Will it make him act nicer than ever instead? Or will his failure in this “must win” match haunt him? Will it make him turn to the dark side of the force? Will he seek a rematch? It makes him look like a bit of a fool after being so smug in the build, so hopefully this is all leads to a different direction for him as he suffers such a setback.

It didn't really lead to anything different in the booking, of course, but the point is that if you look closely at a lot of Cena's big matches I think you can see the kind of 'train of thought' details that you're looking for.

[RWOOD]

I think there is this irrational mindset among Attitude Era fans that John Cena is the reason wrestling sucks now, and maybe even that he's the reason the boom years ended. Like, if he left, suddenly we'd have a return to the glory days of Steve Austin and The Rock. I think deep down, that's the source of most of the heat he gets.

This.

 

I was one of those fans. Now, not.

 

Cena is probably THE top WWE star of all time, both in their revisionist history and in actual match quality given what I've seen. Maybe Ive just already seen enough of Hogan, Hart, Michaels and Rocky. I cannot wait to go through these matches listed as I already have most of them but havent viewed.