Smack2k Posted September 6, 2013 Report Share Posted September 6, 2013 There's nothing wrong with bashing modern-day wrestling based only on show reviews or booking decisions. Nothing at all. Most people who do it have probably seen enough modern-day wrestling to know that they don't like it, so it's not like they're just pulling opinions out of their ass. I'm not going to buy the next Nickelback album, but I'll still say it sucks. I've never eaten a McWrap/burger thingy from McDonald's, but I'll still tell you it tastes terrible. Why? Because I've heard enough Nickelback and eaten enough McDonald's to know that both things are god-awful. That said, if people who are into the modern wrestling product are having a discussion about it on a forum, don't be a troll and butt in just to say how much it sucks if you don't watch it. I'm not going to log into a Nickelback or McDonald's forum just to proclaim how terrible their music/food is. I think this is a BIG ISSUE with almost ALL popular media / wrestling / music / etc... items...if enough people say something is bad, then others will just assume it and never give it a chance. To use your McD's example, everyone I know HATES the McRib and will all say its shit...I tried it and fuckin LOVE it....so their opinions are completely different from mine...but I had to try it out to see it. I think the notion of "enough people hate it" so its bad is a VERY bad thing in society as a whole that has led to a lot or people missing things they may have liked. On top of that, hearing enough people be against something will push opinions in that direction even when viewing or eating it, as now they are expecting bad. I do my best to go in with no opinion no matter what others say and make a judgement, but sometimes hearing enough of one side of things will sway me at the start... The only caveat I will say to this is if you have completely similar interests as someoen else you know and may have dealt with...there, if they are telling you something is really bad, odds are you wont like it...but for something like the internet, where as much as I enjoy reading and talking wrestling, I dont know a lot of people's backgrounds and overall interests in things, so taking all opinions, even if all good or bad as gospel I dont do, until I give it a shot myself.....you never know what might surprise. Take Mid 2000-2001 WCW, most people will HATE it and may give it a few positives here and there, but say most of it is crap...I LOVE the shit, because my interests are different for those shows apparently. I expect to hear a lot of "Wow, I cant believe you said this was good" stuff when El-P gets to late 2000" And if I would have read taht somewhere and not watched it myself, I woudl have missed out on something I really really like...Another is Lucha. I have friends that HATE it, and have told me for a while, its crap. When the set came out, I had that premonition after hearing it so much and listening to the podcast made me still a little unsure. But I am getting it and will give it a shot...I do think hearing all the negativity will hurt me early on watching it, but I will work to get around that and form my own complete thoughts. Opinions are great, and its great to discuss anything...but I do feel that the amount of detail an opinion has should be based on how much of that thing you yourself have seen. In the end, all of this above is MY Opinion...doesnt make it right, doenst make it wrong....and its good to have places to talk about this stuff...would you rather have a place to discuss your passion (wrestling) both good and bad with others, giving your opinions and getting others back, even getting angry at some points made, or have nowhere to go to share it and enjoy it with others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJH Posted September 6, 2013 Report Share Posted September 6, 2013 A match (and I'm not sure why) between KENTA and Marufuji for the GHC from July of this year was just recommended to me on YouTube. It goes 36 minutes. You know what you're getting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidebottom Posted September 7, 2013 Report Share Posted September 7, 2013 To the original point:anybody can have an opinion. It's how much that opinion is worth that counts. The person giving it may think their opinion is very important, somebody else may think it is baseless, worthless and irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted September 7, 2013 Report Share Posted September 7, 2013 Something that baffles me is a growing trend amongst people I know who will willingly watch stuff they proclaim to hate, just so they can complain about it. I actually know people who have grown up as big wrestling fans and as fans of animate sitcoms (Simpsons, Futurama etc.) yet they haven't watched those things hardly at all in YEARS. Conversely, they continually complain about how terrible the X Factor is yet every single week their twitters and facebooks are packed with their live thoughts on the show. They talk about how much they watch Scrubs but they know the show inside out and keep watching the reruns. And they claim not to care about all the shitty people they used to know from old jobs, college etc, yet know every single detail of what all those people are up to these days. And it INFURIATES me, particularly when I recommend them something, be it a film, a game, an album but they "don't have time." Stop wasting it on shit you hate then! To try and tie that in to the original question, yes it's fine for people to develop opinions to something they've not seen (actually, it isn't but there's not much you can do to counteract mass stupidity), and it's equally fine for me to ignore those opinions because I'm not a cretin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted September 8, 2013 Report Share Posted September 8, 2013 Totally agree with Lee, there. People can form their opinions however they please. I don't have to give a shit about that opinion, though. There's too much good stuff out there I haven't seen, read, listened to, etc. I don't have time to spend on shit I don't (or know I won't) like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted September 8, 2013 Report Share Posted September 8, 2013 Something that baffles me is a growing trend amongst people I know who will willingly watch stuff they proclaim to hate, just so they can complain about it. I actually know people who have grown up as big wrestling fans and as fans of animate sitcoms (Simpsons, Futurama etc.) yet they haven't watched those things hardly at all in YEARS. Conversely, they continually complain about how terrible the X Factor is yet every single week their twitters and facebooks are packed with their live thoughts on the show. They talk about how much they watch Scrubs but they know the show inside out and keep watching the reruns. And they claim not to care about all the shitty people they used to know from old jobs, college etc, yet know every single detail of what all those people are up to these days. And it INFURIATES me, particularly when I recommend them something, be it a film, a game, an album but they "don't have time." Stop wasting it on shit you hate then! To try and tie that in to the original question, yes it's fine for people to develop opinions to something they've not seen (actually, it isn't but there's not much you can do to counteract mass stupidity), and it's equally fine for me to ignore those opinions because I'm not a cretin. A lot of folks love to hate things. Which really means, to me, that they actually like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted September 8, 2013 Report Share Posted September 8, 2013 That's what confuses me about it, a friend of mine will claim to hate a show then ask me if I watched it this week and begin dissecting every little thing about it that he hated, and I'll wonder why he didn't do something he actually enjoys instead. It happened recently where he brought up the name of someone from our past who I told him I hadn't spoken to in years, had no desire to speak to ever again and didn't care about. His response was "I agree, him and his mates were all idiots" before updating me on the last few years of this persons life! I JUST DON'T GET IT. I'll ask him if he's seen certain films yet, some more than 15 years old and he'll say "Nah, it's on my DVR... I've always meant to see it, just haven't had time yet." You haven't had time?! But you know the details of the personal lives of people you don't care about?! You don't have time to watch Cesaro/Generico or the Futurama finale despite the fact you're a fan of those things but you've got time to watch everything Will.i.am is in when all you do is tell me what a berk he is?! It's such a disturbing trend because there's a few people I know who do that now. And they'll criticise WWE, TNA, ROH while admitting to not having watched any of them in years. One guy I knew, a promoter no less, who admittedly was running two businesses and didn't have time to keep up with indy wrestling, told me El Generico was the shits. He also told me that he'd never actually seen him wrestle but that "anyone who needs to use something as stupid as a top rope brainbuster to get over doesn't know how to work." He would then proceed to book his wretched trainees in rotten undercard matches. SOME PEOPLE, EH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 8, 2013 Report Share Posted September 8, 2013 I don't understand how if you've seen plenty of the featured wrestlers in WWE, seeing who's on top, what the storylines are, who's winning/coming out ahead, who's losing/coming out behind, who is holding gold and what general sentiment is about the current direction of the company isn't enough evidence to decide if you think WWE is good or bad. Especially when you've tried to give them other chances when things start to look intriguing again, only to be disappointed time and time again. It's WWE's fault that there are so many skeptics about their booking direction. That skepticism exists because they have a history of not delivering. Yes, they are still a popular, profitable company but they are also the only game in town. And if this isn't true, then why are they so far down in popularity from their peak? Why would they be in the red if they hadn't diversified revenue streams, started receiving TV rights fees and placed a greater emphasis on global expansion? Why do so many people who are huge fans of pro wrestling and love so much of it have problems with the way WWE presents it? Why can't they run a successful Wrestlemania with only active, full-time wrestlers? Attempts to blame people for not liking WWE fall flat. Opinions that you can't like something and criticize it at the same time seem deliberately simplistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted September 8, 2013 Report Share Posted September 8, 2013 I don't understand how if you've seen plenty of the featured wrestlers in WWE, seeing who's on top, what the storylines are, who's winning/coming out ahead, who's losing/coming out behind, who is holding gold and what general sentiment is about the current direction of the company isn't enough evidence to decide if you think WWE is good or bad. Especially when you've tried to give them other chances when things start to look intriguing again, only to be disappointed time and time again. This. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 8, 2013 Report Share Posted September 8, 2013 I don't understand how if you've seen plenty of the featured wrestlers in WWE, seeing who's on top, what the storylines are, who's winning/coming out ahead, who's losing/coming out behind, who is holding gold and what general sentiment is about the current direction of the company isn't enough evidence to decide if you think WWE is good or bad. Especially when you've tried to give them other chances when things start to look intriguing again, only to be disappointed time and time again. It's WWE's fault that there are so many skeptics about their booking direction. That skepticism exists because they have a history of not delivering. Yes, they are still a popular, profitable company but they are also the only game in town. And if this isn't true, then why are they so far down in popularity from their peak? Why would they be in the red if they hadn't diversified revenue streams, started receiving TV rights fees and placed a greater emphasis on global expansion? Why do so many people who are huge fans of pro wrestling and love so much of it have problems with the way WWE presents it? Why can't they run a successful Wrestlemania with only active, full-time wrestlers? Attempts to blame people for not liking WWE fall flat. Opinions that you can't like something and criticize it at the same time seem deliberately simplistic. I would probably listen to the opinion of almost anyone here, whether they've seen whatever it is or not if I think they've educated. I'm not saying i'd agree with that opinion. I will say, however, that I'd probably be more interested in what most people here have to say after reading the Smackdown spoilers than I do at what Johnny has to say after WATCHING smackdown because he's been so absurdly positive at everything this year that I don't need to read what he has to say in order to know what he's going to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted September 8, 2013 Report Share Posted September 8, 2013 I go into any interesting WWE storyline with the approach of "cautiously optimistic". I'm going to wait and watch and see where things go, but I'm not going to be shocked if I'm disappointed in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smack2k Posted September 8, 2013 Report Share Posted September 8, 2013 I don't understand how if you've seen plenty of the featured wrestlers in WWE, seeing who's on top, what the storylines are, who's winning/coming out ahead, who's losing/coming out behind, who is holding gold and what general sentiment is about the current direction of the company isn't enough evidence to decide if you think WWE is good or bad. Especially when you've tried to give them other chances when things start to look intriguing again, only to be disappointed time and time again. Under this thought process, you would have turned off WWF in 1997 due to so many bad decisions and booking issues through '96. You would have missed out on one of their BEST years storyline wise and the beginnings of their rise to re-take #1.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 8, 2013 Report Share Posted September 8, 2013 And since we're in touch with each other, someone whose opinion he would have trusted would have said "Hey! You should check this out!" and he would have. So he might have missed the ground floor but not anything else. Far less grief than if he had been tuned in the whole time and it was horrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 8, 2013 Report Share Posted September 8, 2013 I don't understand how if you've seen plenty of the featured wrestlers in WWE, seeing who's on top, what the storylines are, who's winning/coming out ahead, who's losing/coming out behind, who is holding gold and what general sentiment is about the current direction of the company isn't enough evidence to decide if you think WWE is good or bad. Especially when you've tried to give them other chances when things start to look intriguing again, only to be disappointed time and time again. Under this thought process, you would have turned off WWF in 1997 due to so many bad decisions and booking issues through '96. You would have missed out on one of their BEST years storyline wise and the beginnings of their rise to re-take #1.... 1996 WWF was less a case of things being actively bad most of the time, and more of a case of things attempted not fully clicking. 1996 WWF didn't set up a lot of great things only to kill them off a few weeks in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 8, 2013 Report Share Posted September 8, 2013 The only thing I would add is that on one hand saying anyone who doesn't like shouldn't watch and on the other hand saying anyone who doesn't watch shouldn't criticize sounds to me like there is no form of allowed criticism at all. It can't come from people who watch because they shouldn't be watching, and it can't come from people who used to watch and have been turned off because they aren't watching regularly. So I guess we should either all love everything WWE does or shut up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 8, 2013 Report Share Posted September 8, 2013 I can't speak for Loss or anyone else, but for me I'd honestly take down in the shits 1995 WCW or WWF over the best stuff from the late 00s or from the past few years. It's not about quality for me, it's something much more fundamental and unfixable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Face Chicken Wing Posted September 8, 2013 Report Share Posted September 8, 2013 I'll say it again: If someone cares enough to offer an opinion on a WWE show after only reading results, odds are good that they're already diehard wrestling fans and have enough of a background to form that opinion. Limiting the right to criticize only to those who watch everything week in and week out is unrealistic and simplistic. If I cared enough about modern WWE, I would probably rather read opinions form a well-respected wrestling mind who didn't watch the show over someone who did. The recaps from those who watch these days tend to wander a little too far into fanboy territory for my tastes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smack2k Posted September 8, 2013 Report Share Posted September 8, 2013 Bad Post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smack2k Posted September 8, 2013 Report Share Posted September 8, 2013 The only thing I would add is that on one hand saying anyone who doesn't like shouldn't watch and on the other hand saying anyone who doesn't watch shouldn't criticize sounds to me like there is no form of allowed criticism at all. It can't come from people who watch because they shouldn't be watching, and it can't come from people who used to watch and have been turned off because they aren't watching regularly. So I guess we should either all love everything WWE does or shut up. None of this is meant to be taken personally or as an attack on someone's thoughts...all in good time and giving opinions....too much REAL important stuff in life to get actually angry due to someone not agreeing with me or taking a point I make and proving it wrong....this board I love for those reasons.....I dont know if anyone does take some of this stuff personally, but if they do...I dont know what to say...I dont and wont...to much shit in life that ends up bad to allow my passion and hobby to become that way. We are all wrestling fans and for that reason all have a passion for this..regardless of opinions..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 8, 2013 Report Share Posted September 8, 2013 I don't take it personally either. It's wrestling. I just think it's okay to not like stuff, just like it's okay to like stuff. People will agree and disagree with you either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smack2k Posted September 8, 2013 Report Share Posted September 8, 2013 I don't take it personally either. It's wrestling. I just think it's okay to not like stuff, just like it's okay to like stuff. People will agree and disagree with you either way. Well said, Loss...well said!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted September 8, 2013 Report Share Posted September 8, 2013 The only thing I would add is that on one hand saying anyone who doesn't like shouldn't watch and on the other hand saying anyone who doesn't watch shouldn't criticize sounds to me like there is no form of allowed criticism at all. It can't come from people who watch because they shouldn't be watching, and it can't come from people who used to watch and have been turned off because they aren't watching regularly. So I guess we should either all love everything WWE does or shut up. This isn't the case at all and I don't think anyone has made that point. I have already mentioned that Dylan is highly critical of the current product but watches the shows. If you have already given up on the product, your opinion isn't going to mean as much to me as Dylan on the current product. We already know Johnny loves the current product so you have the right to take his opinion with a grain of salt. We know Jerome keeps reminding us he doesn't watch it so why would I care what he thinks about something he has no interest in watching? Nobody is saying "America... love it or leave it." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 8, 2013 Report Share Posted September 8, 2013 "If you don't like it, why even watch?" has been a fairly common battle cry over the years. "If you don't watch, why should I listen to what you say?" has been a fairly common battle cry in this thread. So it raises the question to me of who exactly is allowed to criticize WWE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted September 8, 2013 Report Share Posted September 8, 2013 Dylan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 8, 2013 Report Share Posted September 8, 2013 You cannot develop an opinion on the quality of something without watching it. The idea that you can judge something and then complain about it based on some yahoos report and preconceptions is flawed and highly illogical. Something that baffles me is a growing trend amongst people I know who will willingly watch stuff they proclaim to hate, just so they can complain about it. I actually know people who have grown up as big wrestling fans and as fans of animate sitcoms (Simpsons, Futurama etc.) yet they haven't watched those things hardly at all in YEARS. Conversely, they continually complain about how terrible the X Factor is yet every single week their twitters and facebooks are packed with their live thoughts on the show. They talk about how much they watch Scrubs but they know the show inside out and keep watching the reruns. And they claim not to care about all the shitty people they used to know from old jobs, college etc, yet know every single detail of what all those people are up to these days. And it INFURIATES me, particularly when I recommend them something, be it a film, a game, an album but they "don't have time." Stop wasting it on shit you hate then! That's what confuses me about it, a friend of mine will claim to hate a show then ask me if I watched it this week and begin dissecting every little thing about it that he hated, and I'll wonder why he didn't do something he actually enjoys instead. It's such a disturbing trend because there's a few people I know who do that now. And they'll criticise WWE, TNA, ROH while admitting to not having watched any of them in years. I think either take is fine. I think having both is what I'm questioning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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