Hiroshi Tanahashi

[Timbo Slice]

So I decided to start this up because of the talk in the WON HOF thread. We have the thread that compares him to Cena, but I think it would be good to make a thread that centers around him considering he seems to be the hot button guy for the WON HOF this year.

 

Personally, I don't see him high on any all-time list, and while he's a big reason why New Japan has turned around, him being the biggest draw in Japan at this point in time isn't really something that makes a case for all-time status. That's the one thing he has going for him right now. But it's only been about three years at most, and compared to the other guys in the HOF, three years does not really make a case for him to be amongst the best draws of all time.

 

In the ring, I can understand why people think he's good because he's aesthetically pleasing. He's active in the ring, he gets the crowd involved, but he's the biggest example of a guy who brings style over substance that's considered a top worker. The first half of almost all the matches that are amongst his highly praised matches mean nothing in the end, a lot like many of the New Japan juniors matches of the 1990s that haven't held up as well. The only time I can remember that not being the case is the October 2012 match vs. Suzuki, and that was carried by Suzuki. When the stretch run comes, he dabbles too much in spot fu and whatever selling you think you saw earlier in the match basically goes out the window. Yes, there are exceptions (and I'm sure people will point them out in the thread), but there are many more examples of your turn/my turn type stuff than otherwise. Look no further than the ending to his last match with Okada for possibly the most glaring example (in another match that has been lauded by many) but is another example of that choreographed dance wrestling that is more aesthetically pleasing than something that actually adds to a match or provides a payoff. When Tanahashi is in there with the right guy, the matches can be really good, but I've always seen him as the second guy in the match from a work perspective. The guy he's facing is doing a lot more to make the match palatable. That doesn't mean Tanahashi adds nothing to a match. It means that he doesn't add as much as people think he does.

 

Is he the biggest star of his era? Absolutely. But does that necessarily mean he's on the level of his predecessors that he is most commonly compared to? From both a drawing perspective and a work perspective, not at all.

[Jimmy Redman]

For what it's worth, I just watched the most recent Tanahashi vs Okada match, and I liked it a lot. It may be their best match together, although I'd need to watch both it and Invasion Attack again to know for sure. In any case I liked them both a lot.

 

It stayed away from a lot of my biggest issues with Tanahashi - weak offense, leg work that takes forever and goes nowhere, getting all his shit in at the end - which helped. I much prefer it when he works Okada's arm rather than his leg, as Okada tends to sell the arm better and with the Rainmaker it tends to influence the back end of the match much more. Okada, by the way, has improved his selling a metric fuckton and was really good here holding the entire match together with his selling. I never had that moment where I felt like they had stopped the selling part of the match to start running through highspots, like I've had in their other matches. Every time it was teased Okada would bring it right back with the pain. For that reason I think this match is the most complete of the series.

 

In terms of negatives, it was only little niggles that came out in this match, like the ridiculous dance routine that they do to "counter" the Rainmaker approximately a thousand times a match. Fuck that spot. And the fact that they always go so motherfucking long for no reason and lose my attention in the middle third of the match, although to be fair that is less a criticism of Tana and more of puro main events in general. Also, that leg sell troll that Tana did early to establish him as the heel was like the weirdest shit ever, and I'm not sure I liked it. Tana is good at being the subtle heel without obvious and weird shit like that, but if it worked in getting people into Okada's eventual win that much more then whatever.

[Dylan Waco]

I will say two positive things about him and completely leave the negative out for now just to illustrate that I am not a complete dick

 

1. The guy has charisma and connects with the audience in the buildings which can help the matches he's in. I'd be a liar if I said he connected to me on any level, but he is clearly over and I think in a match like the Suzuki match that was his biggest contribution.

 

2. In his best moments the guy will absolutely kill himself with dumb bumps, or eating big falls to get a match or another guy over. That is a good trait for a top start to have.

[evilclown]

In his best moments the guy will absolutely kill himself with dumb bumps, or eating big falls to get a match or another guy over. That is a good trait for a top start to have.

I agree with this. What I like about him in the matches I've seen is that he understands what he needs to do to draw in and keep the crowd. Leaving aside his style of match (your turn/my turn), my main issue with him is in his execution. It's not that he doesn't know what to do in a match. It's that he does it with a shocking lack of force and conviction.

[ohtani's jacket]

The Tanahashi argument is interesting to me, so I've decided to watch some of his matches.

 

The only time I've really seen him is on promos that used to air on satellite TV when I had it. He's on magazine covers a fair bit and my wife likes him and has a Tanahashi key holder. An ex-colleague of hers used to give her his old wrestling magazines because she liked reading Tanahashi's column, so his face used to be lying around my apartment a bit, and I'm familiar with the story about his TV presenter girlfriend stabbing him in the back. I'm very much a lapsed Japanese wrestling fan and the longer I stay in Japan it seems the less interested in it I become, but I've started to watch a bit more of late and I'm trying to go into this with an open mind. Obviously, I'm aware of the upswing in interest in New Japan of late, but my only real thought on that is that it's cool that fans are enjoying some form of the modern product.

 

So here goes, in bullet form:

 

Tanahashi vs. Okada, 6/6/12

 

* The NJPW entrance set-up looks a bit cheap in a smaller venue. Why bother?

 

* Crowd looked pretty decent sized by modern Japanese standards

 

* Tanahashi's posing is pretty bad. What's with that air guitar gesture he does? Don't like the hair either. Okada has a better look and is cooler. He's got that yanki look down. He's like one of the Kameda brothers.

 

* Onto the match, well I couldn't find a single thing Tanahashi did poorly. I was expecting his offence to look poor, but everything he did looked fine. I thought his strikes would be poor, but they weren't. I thought he wouldn't sell well, but he did. He has a nice looking plancha and I liked his dragon screw while Okada was in the ropes. His offence was no worse than Muto's or Bret Hart or Shawn Michaels or any number of 90s wrestlers I can think of.

 

* The match was paced extremely well and never boring despite going reasonably long. Again I expected Tanahashi's psychology would be poor, but it was no different from what you usually get from Japanese wrestling. Nothing about the match would have looked out of place on a 90s New Japan card. Tanahashi sold his neck consistently and went back to Okada's leg a few times. Can't see the Toyota comparison in this one or the go-go style. I don't think this was even spotty by Japanese wrestling standards.

 

* The crowd was really hot by the end. It may not have been a big crowd, but it was a big match by any standard. The nearfalls were exciting and worked well. Bear in mind that I never watch this stuff so it's not overkill for me, but I don't really see how fans of modern WWE can claim that there were any more counters to finishing moves and so on than your average John Cena match. That's not a knock on Cena, because I like Cena. Maybe it gets worse as the series progresses, I don't know.

 

* Okada looked the less experienced of the two, but I kind of like the exaggerated movement he puts into dropkicks and his moves from the top and I thought his facial expressions during the stretch run were pretty cool.

 

* I don't know about comparing this to 90s All Japan or anything, but I thought it was pretty great and at least a four star match by 90s New Japan standards. It struck me as a typically New Japan style match and like I said wouldn't look out of place on a 90s New Japan card whatsover. It wasn't any different to me than something like Liger vs. Ohtani.

 

* I can see why fans who are into this are into it so much. If I was a young guy and wanted a workrate alternative to WWE booking the way I did in 1999 I would be into this. I don't really care about the hyperbole from Meltzer or anyone else, it was a good wrestling match. It didn't have a lot of the stuff I like in wrestling, but I was expecting it to be the worst indie type shit I'd ever seen and it wasn't. Not by a long shot.

 

The experiment will continue tomorrow night.

[evilclown]

I thought it was pretty great and at least a four star match by 90s New Japan standards. It struck me as a typically New Japan style match and like I said wouldn't look out of place on a 90s New Japan card whatsover.

 

... I don't really care about the hyperbole from Meltzer or anyone else, it was a good wrestling match. It didn't have a lot of the stuff I like in wrestling, but I was expecting it to be the worst indie type shit I'd ever seen and it wasn't. Not by a long shot.

I don't think he's a bad wrestler at all. In fact, I agree with what you've written here. This guy is very much a Shinjiro Ohtani level worker. That's not an insult. But that's also what causes a disconnect for me. How can you make an argument, with a straight face, that being a good 1990's style NJPW wrestler makes you among the best to have ever done it?

[ohtani's jacket]

I thought it was pretty great and at least a four star match by 90s New Japan standards. It struck me as a typically New Japan style match and like I said wouldn't look out of place on a 90s New Japan card whatsover.

 

... I don't really care about the hyperbole from Meltzer or anyone else, it was a good wrestling match. It didn't have a lot of the stuff I like in wrestling, but I was expecting it to be the worst indie type shit I'd ever seen and it wasn't. Not by a long shot.

I don't think he's a bad wrestler at all. In fact, I agree with what you've written here. This guy is very much a Shinjiro Ohtani level worker. That's not an insult. But that's also what causes a disconnect for me. How can you make an argument, with a straight face, that being a good 1990's style NJPW wrestler makes you among the best to have ever done it?

 

I don't know. It was my first time to watch the guy, so I don't have much to say about him yet only that I was expecting a male Manami Toyota and instead got son of generic New Japan wrestler. There are modern day CMLL workers who I simply won't watch because they're so far removed from what I think is good lucha and I can see people having that reaction to Tanahashi if they were really big 90s Japanese wrestling fans, but I don't think this guy is as bad as those CMLL workers.

[tim]

I don't think many people around here think the Okada series is bad. They might think it is usually NOT good but the Tanahashi criticisms don't really stem from the Okada series which I think has produced one really good MOTYC-level match (G1 Day 8), one pretty good match (the first one Metlz rated *****) and one match with an utterly boring first 20 minutes and a dynamite home stretch (the recent KoPW match) and one match that I thought was a total chore to sit through and awfully boring (January Dome show). That's not an all time great series but it's not a terrible series indicating of shitty or even sub par workers.

 

I can only speak for me but where my disdain of Tanahashi comes from is a lot of his 2009 run which I saw a lot of the pimped matches of -- he was painfully boring, did absolutely nothing interesting for the vast majority of his very long matches and then sprung into life for a hot but by-the-numbers finishing stretch -- and had to hear how he was shaping up to be an all time great and I couldn't help but adopt a "fuck this guy" attitude. Same story for the matches I saw him in between then and this year. This year most of the matches I've seen him in have been good, because I haven't been interested in watching Tanahashi matches that I didn't think I had a good chance of liking, but he still has glaring flaws. Dylan often talks about the insanity of how the same people who praise Tanahashi also inveigh against Cena's "weak" offense and shitty offense is definitely a flaw of Tanahashi's. He also is one of those guys who is content to work totally uninspired for 10-20 minutes and then run through a hot home stretch. Which is kind of a calling card for a lot of WON-hyped guys especially from Japan. I don't think the problem has ever been that Tanahashi is actively bad, I don't think he often is, but instead that he is just uninspired, hardly ever actively good, and gets absurd praise for it.

[ohtani's jacket]

Tanahashi vs. Okada 2/12/12

 

* This was the first match in their series. The only version I could find had dubbed over English commentary. Kids, don't dub over matches with your own commentary. It's not cool.

 

* I didn't like this much. It was the same ideas as the 6/6 match put together in a much more disjointed fashion. To their credit, they wrestled a superior version of the same match in June, but it's kind of lame that they re-worked so many of the same spots. I was especially disappointed that Tanahashi did the dragon screw in the ropes. I hope he doesn't do that spot in every match.

 

* The opening exchanges were the first time I've thought his work was bad. It was like he took the energy from his shitty posing and infused it into his early spots. His headlock work was weak and he did this moonsault spot into a pose that was completely shallow. But the real problem with this match was that there wasn't the same sustained attacks as in the June match, nor the same amount of selling or drama, and the transitions between each control segment were weak compared to the rematch.

 

* When the most exciting thing in a match is a guy losing a tooth, you've kind of lost me. Three stars would be generous for this one.

[Dylan Waco]

I have a rep of loathing Tanahashi and his matches and the series with Okada in general. But if you actually look back at what I wrote about the matches - especially the matches this year - the general tone of the reviews was "this is a style I don't really care for, the matches go on too long, but they do some good stuff and/or have some good ideas." I don't think I said any of the four matches from this year were bad. I was more down on the 1/4 match because the hyperbole around the whole show was unreal, but I was also pretty kind to the G1 match.

[Jimmy Redman]

For Tanahashi I'd use the dreaded "good, not great" cliche. I don't hate him, he has a lot of good matches, is capable of having a great match, but I just don't think he's particularly great.

[Mad Dog]

I have a hard time being objective with Tanahashi. I've followed NJPW regularly from about late 2000 until now. So his rise to IWGP Champion marked the turn around for the company in the mid 2000s so I'm grateful to him for that. I remember the first time I saw him on a tape, probably in 2001, I had him pegged as the future ace of the company. I would agree with good, not great for him though.

[W2BTD]

I have a rep of loathing Tanahashi and his matches and the series with Okada in general. But if you actually look back at what I wrote about the matches - especially the matches this year - the general tone of the reviews was "this is a style I don't really care for, the matches go on too long, but they do some good stuff and/or have some good ideas." I don't think I said any of the four matches from this year were bad. I was more down on the 1/4 match because the hyperbole around the whole show was unreal, but I was also pretty kind to the G1 match.

The Tokyo Dome is by far their worst match, and the only one that lost me during certain points.

[soup23]

I would rank their series thus far:

 

1. October 2013

2. February 2012

3. April 2013

4. August 2013

5. June 2012

6. January 2013

 

Been thinking about digging into some 2006-2010 Tanahashi since he seems topical and I havent revisited most of that stuff since it occurred.

[Jimmy Redman]

To rank their series I'd go,

 

1. Invasion Attack (4/13)

2. King of Pro Wrestling (10/13)

 

3. G1 Climax (8/13)

 

4. Dominion (6/12)

5. New Beginnings (2/12)

6. Tokyo Dome (1/13)

 

I feel like I need to rewatch Invasion Attack to know for sure which of the two I prefer the most. They are the only ones of the series I'd call great though. G1 was good but a clear level below. The other three I thought were OK at times but had massive flaws that I couldn't get past.

[W2BTD]

I would rank their series thus far:

 

1. October 2013

2. February 2012

3. April 2013

4. August 2013

5. June 2012

6. January 2013

 

Been thinking about digging into some 2006-2010 Tanahashi since he seems topical and I havent revisited most of that stuff since it occurred.

Here's mine:

 

1. October 2013

2. April 2013

3. August 2013

4. February 2012

5. June 2012

6. January 2013

 

I gave the first three 5-stars. Yes, I am absurdly & probably irrationally fond of the G1 draw. I just loved everything about that match. The shock of the finish bumps February 2012 a notch or two, as it's technically probably not better than the June match.

 

Previous to these matches, I legit can not recall the last time I felt something was 5-stars. I'd probably have to go back to the Dragon Gate six man in ROH 2006 (man, I am REALLY on the wrong side of the tracks now), and that was more based on the fact that they blew that crowd away and it was just the right match at the right time, because while a great match, it was really no better than dozens of other Dragon Gate matches just like it. Anyway, the point here is that typically I am a really hard marker, much harder than somebody like Alan4L, harder than Meltzer especially when it comes to WWE main events, etc. These matches just connect with me on a Bryan Danielson 2006 level (which to me is one of the great singular years in wrestling, and I saw him live countless times that year and never felt anything was perfect, which sound like the biggest backhanded compliment ever but that's not how I mean it at all).

[W2BTD]

A lot of people forget or don't realize that they had one singles match before Okada's excursion. They have seven total singles matches to my knowledge.

[ohtani's jacket]

Tanahashi vs. Okada 1/13/13

 

* I didn't mind the slow build here as I assume they were trying to do something different from their previous two matches. It wasn't hugely compelling but there was nothing that was actively bad.

 

* The match didn't reach the epic heights they would have liked from the build, but I think a lot of that has to do with the inexperience of Okada and the repetition of spots. Okada's not always that great working from the top and his selling wasn't that great this time round. Tanahashi probably should have carried him better, but tends to give him the match in equal portions.

 

* I'd probably go three and a half stars on this one max. After my enthusiasm over the first match I watched, the wind's been knocked out of my sails a bit. Too many matches in too short a space of time for mind. Okada needs more time to grow and bring more to the table. We'll see what happens in the more heavily pimped matches, but a lot of the time it's like watching 80s WWF workers having the same match around the horn.

[ohtani's jacket]

Tanahashi vs. Suzuki 10/8/12

 

* This was the first time for me to see old man Suzuki. Only knowing him from UWF, PWFG and Pancrase, I don't think I could pick the guy out in a line-up these days. The dude looks terrible and moves really poorly, but he does just enough with his strikes, kicks and submission holds to remain a threat.

 

* This was pretty cool. The biggest thing it had going for it was that it was different from the style of matches that Tanahashi had with Okada and the body work, for want of a better term, filled out the body of the match nicely. Tanahashi's selling perhaps could have been a little better and I get what people say about his strikes when it comes to his forearms, which kind of made working that arm not that engrossing outside of a wrestling storyline, but it all made sense.

 

* Tanahashi probably went to the dragon screw too many times, though for some reason I really like dragon screws and could live with that. One thing I thought they got right was the amount of offence in the stretch run leading to the finish. It seemed to me that Tanahashi nailed just the right amount of offence to put a guy like Suzuki away without going over the top.

 

* I would put this around four stars. Suzuki was more like a broken down Osamu Kido than a modern day Fujiwara and didn't overly impress me, but he did have a number of nice broken down old man touches. Tanahashi worked pretty hard.

[ohtani's jacket]

Tanahashi vs. Okada, 4/13/13

 

* This ticked all the right boxes in terms of neck and arm work for those people who feel psychology=body work, but what I liked was that both guys added to their repertoire in this match and did a lot of new spots (or at least spots that felt new to me.) Okada did a few DDT spots and a couple of lucha looking submissions that somehow managed to work and Tanahashi had a couple of new ways of working the arm.

 

* I'm not sure that Okada is technically that good, but he comes across as likeable to me and it seems like he's always trying to improve as a worker. I love his dropkick. It's so lanky, but I love it. He went to the well a couple of times for spots like that neck spot he likes to do with the guard rail, but for the most part they mixed things up.

 

* Tanahashi was solid with both his selling and intensity. He even managed to pose with a fair degree of meaning. The match layout was strong and the pacing was excellent. I wholeheartedly agree with W2BTD's comments in this regard. I get bored easily during wrestling and when I see that all their matches are around the 30 minute mark I get a bit antsy, but this flew by much like their second Osaka match.

 

* Finishing stretch was great. Big moves, dramatic nearfalls, strong selling... Real main event wrestling. I first got into Japanese wrestling around the time that we were originally able to download stuff, which from memory was late '98 to early '99 with those thumbnail sized real media files. The puroresu that was available to us then was not as good as this, so I can buy the hype from the kids that watch this today. Whether their series is better than Flair/Steamboat or Misawa/Kobashi or anything else doesn't interest me, but I'd peg this as a strong MOTYC.

[ohtani's jacket]

Tanahashi vs. Okada, 8/12/13

 

* The beginning of this was weak. It seems these two can't fill in time unless they do limb work. Here they drifted in and out of limb work to fill in the first two thirds of a 30 minute draw. I'm no fan of the 30 minute draw, even in the old Champion Carnival days, so I don't care if you have to go out there and kill a bunch of time, but these guys would be so much better off if they could work the mat. Tanahashi working over Okada's arm to weaken the Rainmaker isn't compelling when you've already seen it two or three times, and I'm sick of that Okada guardrail spot. That's a crutch if ever I saw one in wrestling. If they can't work the mat, and it doesn't seem like that can, just have Okada beat Tanahashi up for a sustained period of time and have Tanahashi sell, instead of this even stevens business they partake in.

 

* Okada looked off here. Little moments of hesitation and awkwardness. I'm not sure he's all that comfortable in his frame. He has to bend over a lot and it leads to a lot of that awkwardness. I'm not sure he's got the hang of how to work big and how to work small.

 

* The first two thirds were forgettable, but the final third was enjoyable. If this was joined in progress for the final 12 or 15 minutes, I'd probably have a higher opinion of it. It seemed like they worked some new moves into their finishing stretch. The tit for tat stuff is their major strength and they're able to lace it with some terrific nearfalls. The final attempt at the Rainmaker as time expired was better than 99% of how all 30 minute draws end.

 

* Overall, it wasn't that interesting. I'm not even sure it was better than their Tokyo Dome match. Maybe three and a quarter stars.

[ohtani's jacket]

Tanahashi vs. Suzuki, 1/4/12

 

* Here's an example of a match with a stronger build. They worked out of a side headlock to begin with, then there was a bit of niggle and Suzuki took control of the match, working Tanahashi over and cutting off his comeback attempts. I didn't love the ramp stuff, but it served its purpose. Suzuki looked far better in this match than he did in their October bout and was much more of a "maestro." He even paid homage to Fujiwara by copying his headbutt style. Tanahashi sold the beating well and this was probably the most solid of his matches so far in terms of substance.

 

* Where the match went astray was Tanahashi's big finish. Suzuki cut off his comeback attempts two or three times during the course of the match, but it was obvious that Tanahashi was going to nail him with a bunch of big moves and win the match. The cut-off spots were really good with Suzuki finding imaginative ways to cut off some of Tanahashi's signature stuff, but the finishing stretch seemed slightly off. It wasn't so much that it was unrealistic for Tanahashi to reel off a bunch of moves and suddenly Suzuki is as damaged as him. I get that wrestling trope. It just wasn't timed as well as it could have been. I think if you took the finish to the Oct match and tacked it on to the body of the Jan match you'd have a great match.

 

* This was still pretty good, though. I'd say it topped out at around 4 stars. It was very much a Suzuki performance (moreso than their Oct match, IMO), but Tanahashi sold well. He likes to work light, but he did work slightly stiffer against Suzuki. His shovel punches are slightly better than his forearms.

[ohtani's jacket]

Tanahashi vs. Ishii, 8/2/13

 

* First time to watch a Tanahashi match against someone not named Okada or Suzuki.

 

* This was a good match. Ishii strikes me as a younger, more mobile version of Suzuki. He hasn't got the same maestro aura as Suzuki, but he's got more high end offence, which is how he put Tanahashi away. His victory was probably the best thing about this, as I thought they did a fantastic job of going beyond the beat of where Tanahashi would ordinarily go on to win and having Ishii take his chance. Tanahashi again sold well and put Ishii over strongly.

 

* I thought this was a feather in Tanahashi's cap, but you look at the WON rating and it's **** 3/4. That's insane. It's closer to *** 3/4 while still being a really strong performance. Tanahashi may be overrated, but it's not his fault.

[ohtani's jacket]

Tanahashi vs. Shibata, 8/11/13

 

* This was my least favourite Tanahashi match so far. The style clash did nothing for me. Tanahashi did all right considering that matwork and strikes aren't really his forte, but Shibata is a poor shoot style worker. I'm pretty pig headed about what I like in shoot style, but I don't buy his shit for a second. He reminds me of a shitty UWF-i style worker. If anybody thinks he's good suggest some matches.

[Graham Crackers]

Tanahashi vs. Shibata, 8/11/13

 

* This was my least favourite Tanahashi match so far. The style clash did nothing for me. Tanahashi did all right considering that matwork and strikes aren't really his forte, but Shibata is a poor shoot style worker. I'm pretty pig headed about what I like in shoot style, but I don't buy his shit for a second. He reminds me of a shitty UWF-i style worker. If anybody thinks he's good suggest some matches.

Shibata is pretty overrated and I think a lot of that has to do with people associating him with the direction New Japan could have gone had he stuck around. He's better in a brawling setting than when he does his imitation shoot style stuff. I think people regard his match against Jun Akiyama as his best match and there's nothing shoot style about that match.

 

Tanahashi vs Fujita is a much better match against a guy with a shooter rep.