goc Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Yea I don't really understand the people complaining that he's always getting beat up on TV, or mad that he doesn't win all of his matches. He wins most of his matches, and those that he don't almost always include him being screwed in some way. Him being beat clean by Wyatt at Rumble is the first I can remember in a LONG time. Plus, he's an underdog babyface. That usually includes getting beat up on TV a lot. If anything I actually feel like they've booked him TOO strong at times. No one should be kicking out of top rope powerbombs in match 1 of a 3 match gauntlet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 The idea that it's an argument of percentages is not being able to see the forest for the trees. Austin and Rock won and lost at the right times. Austin didn't lose at Wrestlemania XIV. No one was burying Austin and Rock on promos as total jokes who didn't deserve to sniff the world title picture either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Promos burying him Promos burying him Promos burying him Promos burying him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra Commander Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Said this in the other thread, but I still think they can turn this around by having Bryan win the Elimination Chamber and then face HHH at Mania. I know everyone keeps saying "he needs to win the title on the big stage!" but I think defending the title against HHH and beating him clean to end the storyline is just as big a moment as winning the title at Mania over Orton, when people are burnt out on that matchup, would be. wouldn't it be even more of an authority dick move if Bryan essentially had to do a gauntlet match v. HHH and Bautista? or would the DB contingent freak out if Bryan beat HHH, but it took so much out of him that he lost the title to Bautista? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 The idea that it's an argument of percentages is not being able to see the forest for the trees. Austin and Rock won and lost at the right times. Austin didn't lose at Wrestlemania XIV. No one was burying Austin and Rock on promos as total jokes who didn't deserve to sniff the world title picture either. It was a different time, and Bryan isn't Austin or the Rock. McMahon cut promos on Austin calling him a filthy, vulgar drunkard redneck who had no business being the champion of his company. Surprise....those are the things people liked about him. They say Bryan is small and ugly and not face of the WWE material.....those are the things that appeal to people about Bryan. They play to their smart fan hardcore internet audience with guys like Bryan and Punk. I honestly think they believe that cutting down Bryan in promos for being a B+ and too short and too ugly etc. etc. is going to get him more over with that target audience. It makes him the underdog, the man of the people. And maybe it has, he's more over than ever. Or maybe it's misguided. But if you think HHH/Steph cut those promos to hurt him, you're being worked. They don't believe those things, the audience doesn't believe those things, it's part of the work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 If they don't believe those things, then why did he lose at HIAC, and why was he not factored into plans for the top of the card at Mania from the beginning? Vince attacked Austin's character, not his worth as a performer and in the ring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Most of the audience doesn't believe those things. Not everyone in the audience is a smark or hardcore or the type to be sympathetic to a Bryan type though. I know from experience talking to the dreaded "casual fan" (especially women), and they don't get what the big deal is about Bryan, they absolutely think he's too small and ugly, and don't see him as a main eventer. So for those people, when you have a guy who still gets a pop when he comes out like Hunter saying all of those things that they believe about Bryan, all the reasons why he shouldn't make it to the top, and then...he doesn't make it to the top, it does nothing to change their perception of a guy who they think just isn't main event material. The Austin example isn't the same thing because his "problems" aren't disparaging in the same way. Austin wasn't too small or not credible enough to be the champion, he was just too much of a rebel. It didn't cut him down for Vince to say that about him, it made him a badass. "You're an out of control redneck who drinks beer and you shouldn't main event because you're too dangerous and beat the crap out of everyone!" ...that isn't Vince burying Austin on the mic. Hunter saying "You're small and scrawny and ugly and shouldn't main event because you're only a B+ level talent" is a lot different. Nobody hears that and thinks "Man, that guy is cool!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra Commander Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Are we talking "fans think he's too small" or "fans think he's too small and they can't buy-into the idea that he can beat people"? The first is obviously a lot better than the second. The first could be held in combination with "I think he's too small but I want him to win". Would it be a fair generalization to think the two biggest ways to fuck over someone's credibility are either [a] making it so people don't care about him or making it so people can't buy him as a credible contender? So there's lines between heel promos and attempted burials and there's differences between doubt and disbelief. It's not all that bad of a thing if fans want a guy to succeed but have some legitimate doubt. It's better than wanting them to succeed and thinking they'll just crush anybody no questions asked. Nothing wrong with some drama because some of them might want to actually buy-in to see if their guy can make it. Daniel Bryan isn't quite to the level where he's a Lex Luger or something right now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Most interesting thing I heard tonight that I didn't already realize was that it was a fairly recent change to have Extreme Rules in Seattle, as in definitely after the last Raw there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Promos burying him Promos burying him Promos burying him Promos burying him By HHH and Steph. Who watched those and said " I can't get behind Bryan because the two people everyone hates are insulting him." They were doing "evil Internet perception of us " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Promos burying him Promos burying him Promos burying him Promos burying him By HHH and Steph. Who watched those and said " I can't get behind Bryan because the two people everyone hates are insulting him." They were doing "evil Internet perception of us " Remember, the audience in the crowd are drones who lack basic comprehension and take everything at face value. Only smart Internet fans like Loss know what's really up! Come on, Loss. You are exactly the kind of mark they hope for. The kind that jumps on the computer after the promo is done to express how bad a job they're doing and how bad they're burying him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I don't think there's any question that the promos are designed to work the smarks. I think there's a question of what value that actually brings to the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Sure, they're working the smarts, which is all fine and dandy, until they lose control of the work and then have to reel it back in the next day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I don't think there's any question that the promos are designed to work the smarks. I think there's a question of what value that actually brings to the table. The whole "Does this draw money?" question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Vince Russo was all about "working the smarts". It sure did wonder in the long run. I'm amazed that a company would willingly hurt the perception of a guy just to troll its hardcore audience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Promos burying him Promos burying him Promos burying him Promos burying him By HHH and Steph. Who watched those and said " I can't get behind Bryan because the two people everyone hates are insulting him." They were doing "evil Internet perception of us " HHH does "evil Internet perception" even as a babyface. It's the only way he knows how to cut promos. It's Wrestling 101 that the heel is proven wrong. When the heel says something like this, then the babyface loses, the heel is proven right. And considering that they had no plans to redeem him until the fan backlash kicked in, yes, you could call that a burial in some ways, or at the very least, a demonstration that they were out of touch with what their fans wanted. Promos burying him Promos burying him Promos burying him Promos burying him By HHH and Steph. Who watched those and said " I can't get behind Bryan because the two people everyone hates are insulting him." They were doing "evil Internet perception of us " Remember, the audience in the crowd are drones who lack basic comprehension and take everything at face value. Only smart Internet fans like Loss know what's really up! Come on, Loss. You are exactly the kind of mark they hope for. The kind that jumps on the computer after the promo is done to express how bad a job they're doing and how bad they're burying him. Please don't personally attack me. We are having a conversation. But if the type of "mark" they are hoping for is one that hasn't attended a live event in five years or bought a pay-per-view in even longer than that, but would be excited to do so if this kind of crap didn't happen every time someone who doesn't fit their mold started getting over as a potential main eventer, then the joke is on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I will also add that the personal posts like yours Steven make it much harder to talk about and follow modern WWE even when they do something right. When I follow but don't watch closely and comment on something they are doing, the response is that if I don't watch, I have no right to comment on it. When I do watch closely and comment on something, the response is that if I don't like it, then I shouldn't watch. The end result is basically that if you don't like everything they do, you're not allowed to say anything unless you do. It's ridiculous. It would be nice to be able to post both positive and critical things about WWE -- when both are deserved -- and simply have the point engaged rather than being told that my viewing habits or lack thereof are somehow wrong, or to be personally attacked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I feel like this can't be stated enough: People think WWE are dropping the ball with Bryan instead of this all being some part of a plan to piss off the online base to make Bryan bigger or whatever, because there's a history of this happening, over and over again, especially over the last few years. Every summer, like clockwork. Basically, and given how thoroughly Meltzer is pushing this as WWE manipulating their fans or what not, I'm going to shrug and just accept that it's all, at least at this point, a direction and not a continual stream of screw ups... WWE is leveraging their past creative failures into a storyline. That's pretty crazy, especially for a company that's always been so careful to control history and how their past has been presented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Basically, and given how thoroughly Meltzer is pushing this as WWE manipulating their fans or what not, I'm going to shrug and just accept that it's all, at least at this point, a direction and not a continual stream of screw ups... WWE is leveraging their past creative failures into a storyline. That's pretty crazy, especially for a company that's always been so careful to control history and how their past has been presented. This might be one of the most optimistic posts ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Everything Loss has said in this thread about promos is true. Doesn't matter how "smart" the fanbase, you don't bury people on promos. That's true if you're face or heel and regardless of the era. If HHH is such a student of the game he should know that. It's amazing how someone who professes to have worshipped Flair learned so little from him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Everything Loss has said in this thread about promos is true. Doesn't matter how "smart" the fanbase, you don't bury people on promos. That's true if you're face or heel and regardless of the era. If HHH is such a student of the game he should know that. It's amazing how someone who professes to have worshipped Flair learned so little from him. I just think back to the Flair model: "I've been in the ring with you, and you are awesome. But I'm better and I'll prove it." "You beat me once. Congratulations. But let's see you do it again." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 It's also frustrating because Bryan usually doesn't have a scathing burn to counter the insults. He usually just smirks it off. I can remember him implying that Stephanie was a bitch last summer but not much else. There is so much material for him to use on Hunter and Steph and none of it has been used. Maybe they were saving that stuff for Punk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 From WON An interesting note on Extreme Rules being in Seattle on 5/4. Seattle was not the original site. That tells me if they were going to change, it means they are going to build the show in some form around Bryan and that decision was made two weeks ago. Whether that means they give him a title win on that show, have him defend it for the first time there, or do an angle where they kill him dead, I don't know, but given the reaction the last time they were there and making a change to go to that city instead of run from that city, it's to take advantage of that reaction this time with them knowing it's coming and having it work for them instead of hijacking their plans. Also, within the company, the belief is still that Bryan is a guy who is a great wrestler who people chant for and is a star, but doesn't draw money in a major way, at least at the No. 1 star in the company level. Even Bryan himself in an interview last week said that you can't prove anything, but that the company does need to judge based on what sells tickets and PPVs as to who goes in the top position. You can look at tickets in the sense there are two tours, and the Cena vs. Orton tour charges higher ticket prices (because of Cena) and consistently outdraws the Punk and Bryan tour. We can argue forever regarding his build, and his build to be a main eventer sucked royally, yet if you watched the TV, you got the feeling there was great momentum. But of his four main events, only Hell in a Cell did even average numbers based on the show. SummerSlam was way down and Night of Champions and Battleground did poor numbers. Survivor Series also did poor numbers with Orton vs. Show, and Show was pushed super strong leading into that card. And the finishes didn't help in the sense they constantly screwed people on them. We didn't get numbers officially yet for TLC, which was the return to Cena vs. Orton, but preliminary indications were that show beat the prior year by a huge amount. To me, if it hadn't with the build of the first unified champion in 50 or 100 years or whatever they claimed that week, given the build, it should be a huge disappointment. None of that says with the right push he can't be the top guy. It only says the chants that make it appear in the buildings that he's far and away the most over guy do not reflect any measurable metric to the degree of a top guy. Even in the overrun two weeks ago when he did the turn back, his TV moving numbers were behind Cena (to his credit, he was in second place and not a distant second either), and last week he was behind Batista (the novelty factor, and it does appear it was more novelty factor than anything) as well as Cena, Orton, Punk, Lesnar/Heyman and HHH, but still well ahead of everyone else. Nothing is a perfect science, but every metric they usually use to figure who are money players, or who are on the verge, he does the level of a toip tier babyface, but not near Cena or Punk, as opposed to a guy over achieving his push, which is the perception you'd get from TV as him being a guy who the most over guy there's been in years. Again, with the right marketing, the "Yes Movement," fighting oppressive authority, it could click huge and I'd have made him champion last October, and I'd build to making him champion now. So that makes it easier to justify not going all the way with him or thinking the chants are a very vocal hardcore that doesn't represent the big picture if you are predisposed to believe he can't be a top guy based on the usual looks category. But I can't see them not giving him a title run over the next six months. The question then comes does he get the Batista style booked title run or the Punk style booked or the Mysterio style booked title run, because you can self fulfill prophesies of success even after giving someone the belt. On the flip side, there is momentum there with the "Yes" chant going mainstream and I'd sure push him really hard right now to take advantage of it. Plus, when you throw in the psychology that those running the company feel they do understand the business and have the belief that fans that make noise really don't, there is a natural push back against it. It's just an inevitable part of psychology. This is both the hardest and easiest time in history when it comes to the top national promotion. Because of all the new revenue streams, it is the easiest time ever to be profitable. If rights fees for the level of ratings were what they are, even a company as incompetent as WCW at the time would have a fighting chance to break even. A company as well run as WWE is on the verge of going through the most successful financial period of any wrestling company in history. On the flip side, it's harder because there is a fan base that is the most hardcore, most vocal, etc., that represents a viewpoint that may not be the best route for business nor represent the masses, which is funny because that's where the whole "Best for Business" storyline used to get heat comes from. They want certain things, and it can be a Zack Ryder push a few years back, or Bryan being the world champion and top star in the company. And the thing is, the nature of the company today is that the actual booking isn't life or death as historically it was. The company can do what they want because ratings aren't going to vary too much if Cena is the top guy or Bryan is, and attendance will vary some based on the top star, but it's still the brand that draws for the most part. It doesn't matter who holds the title, only who the top star on the show is. Yet at the same time, you want to make the fans happy, but also have to figure what most of the fans, and not the most vocal fans want. That's an impossible task to do 100%, but there are a number of metrics that you can look at. The problem is that to a degree, they are self-fulfilling prophesies in the sense the guys you don't beat very often and focus on are generally going to do better in those metrics. And some guys, like Mysterio, who look great in metrics (merchandise, hero to very important Spanish demo, used to be very significant when it came to moving ratings, especially with Hispanics) aren't going to be pushed past a certain level because they are seen as being big stars at shows but not who you can build around as a top guy because of size concerns. Plus, with him today, there's the age and injury concerns and they aren't going to push him a lot now. Yet at the same time, you'll have Batista, who is older and has also piled up injuries, but because he fits the prototype, is going to be pushed harder. And right now, since he's new, that isn't wrong, but compare the respective pushes for each man's return. But Batista was pushed as the bigger star in the past, was gone longer and his return was going to mean more all things being equal. The hardcore fans do have the ability to make a star, because the truth is, Punk and Bryan both never would have gotten anywhere based on what the company perceives a top star to be, but they were both more than good enough to be great TV characters, and a lot of that is because they talk so well, plus people know they work their asses off and have great matches. And Punk was for a long time very legitimately No. 2 of the full-timers. Still, Mysterio, Eddy Guerrero and Jeff Hardy all come to mind as people who were not booked strongly, but still moved ratings and merchandise. It led to Guerrero and Hardy going from mid-card to main event and Mysterio having runs at the top that he otherwise wouldn't have, although his upward mobility was still limited by his size in their eyes. But this conflict between the decision makers and most vocal fans is going to be a huge part of the business going forward. And I have to believe Bryan is going to get that title win, at best because they know his fan base is an important core to business and it's really not that important today who has the belt. The only reason not to give it to him would be stubbornness or having fun thumbing their nose at fans. But winning the belt itself means nothing. Whether he can be a long-term face of the company and take the spot Cena has is a very different story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I don't think there are any ill intentions behind the HHH/McMahon promos towards Bryan, and I think people are overreacting to how casual fans will respond to it. Them calling Bryan short and ugly are just playing into their characters, and the idea is that the fans resent it and rally behind him. Maybe it's too inside. But people have been claiming these burials of Bryan since August, and he's more over than ever. So either he's just that impossible to bury, or the internet doesn't have its finger on the pulse of the normal fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Basically, and given how thoroughly Meltzer is pushing this as WWE manipulating their fans or what not, I'm going to shrug and just accept that it's all, at least at this point, a direction and not a continual stream of screw ups... WWE is leveraging their past creative failures into a storyline. That's pretty crazy, especially for a company that's always been so careful to control history and how their past has been presented. This might be one of the most optimistic posts ever It's actually the Seattle thing that's put me over the top on this. I find it all incredibly surreal though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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