Common Match Criticisms

[Matt D]

Hell, we just saw Zayn and Cesaro have a match where the injured knee became a focal point, and very few people even elected to talk about the fact that he was jumping around doing the Toyota Roll and the top rope rana.

 

 

I thought he was doing a pretty good job of selling after he did it though. That's really the main thing that I ask. You can hit a move (With effort) but then go back to the selling. Make it seem like it cost you something too.

[Steenalized]

 

 

Yes, these are examples of what fits in "pro wrestling logic." When you throw a dropkick and it hits the target and you land, it doesn't hurt, but when you throw the same dropkick and miss, the landing hurts. That's acceptable. That's the well-established norm.

This complaint always bothered me, in particular about the dropkick. Maybe it's because of my own background, but how I think of it is like this: hit a punching bag for a while. Then, occasionally miss. Instead of landing the big straight, purposefully throw it so you miss. What happens? You waste a lot more energy and are more likely to injure yourself (at least if you're throwing as hard as possible). To me, the dropkick vs. the missed dropkick are the same thing. Landing a splash vs. missing a splash is a similar concept, albeit there it's a guy being softer to land on than the supposedly hard mat.

[jdw]

I tend to agree with Loss and Ditch a decent amount on "body work".

 

I don't have a problem with a 16-20 minute match where, after the initial opening, they take it down for 9-10+ minutes of working body parts / holds before eventually picking it up to work towards the finish. It's what I grew up watching, and I've enjoyed countless matches that way. What I tend to ask from those "body of the match" sections are:

 

* do a solid enough job working those holds / body parts

* do a solid enough job selling those holds / body parts during the section

* sell the work in the transitions

 

I don't expect someone to sell solid kneework or armwork for the next 10 minutes. I accept that they eventually have other shit to get in. But sell it in the transition rather then getting up to run around like nothing happened to get your shit in. That's annoying.

 

I don't require that the working of the holds / body parts be UWF-style, either in application or selling. I was watching and enjoying Dennis and Bobby of the MX work holds on faces well before I watch UWF-style work, so I don't have some unrealistic level of work that I want out of it. On the other hand, Dennis & Bobby worked the holds, and in turn the faces sold underneath. The faces also tried to escape / counter out, and the heels shortcut them back in. The faces tried to make tags, and the heels cut them off. The heels got a little rought, cheated on occassion, and worked things so that the ref wasn't looking right at their nonsense and having to pretend he didn't see it. Except when they wanted him to see it, and break the hold / cheat.

 

In turn, when it was time for the faces to work holds against the MX, the MX would sell the shit out of them, the faces would work them, and it was all solid stuff.

 

A contrast would be say Muraco vs Morales where they lie around when working holds (both as the top and as the bottom), just killing time.

 

That's kind of the destinction for me: I have no problem with "filling space/time" of a match as long as it's solid and they're working, while I hate "killing time" where they're not putting the effort into working. I actually far prefer watching some solid matwork for 10+ minutes at the start of a match than guys coming out "throwing bombs" or brawling outside the ring or "punching each other right in the nose" and other such stuff to fill their first 10 minutes.

 

And yeah... All Japan in the 90s got away from working over folks with holds to start matches. Perhaps one of the reasons I like El Clasico: Kawada works over Misawa's bad neck/upper back, then goes to work on the ear when it starts bleeding, while Misawa turns things by going after Kawada's linger bad knee. It's not like what they do is some of the best body work that you've ever seen, since it's not. But it's solid, it fits into what's going on in recent injuries for the pair (Misawa's neck/back from Carny, and Kawada's knee linger since the prior RWTL) and something that just popped up (Misawa's ear is popped, and Kawada is smart enough to take shots at it). None of this is at the level of say Kawada's knee in the 12/03/93 match, but it's solid, makes sense, is worked well enough, is sold well enough, the transitions are well done and solid well, and helps fill space and time well for a match that ends up going 35 minutes at a time when All Japan singles matches hadn't been going that long.

 

Does it play into what happens once they start working towards the finish? Not really. Not a problem.

[Death From Above]

My problem with the body part thing is if its ignored in selling afterwards. For example the Orton-Bryan match from earlier this year when the leg of Orton was destroyed for the first half and then ignored by him later on.

 

The whole selling thing in wrestling is bizarre. Like, I've yet to watch a baseball game, see a guy get hit in the arm with a line drive, then keep playing with it hanging limply at his side for six innings. Or that time Joe Thornton played a playoff series for the Bruins with a busted rib but he just forgot to sell I guess. The whole notion of pro wrestling is that it's a fake competitive event, and while there are guys that have used the ole' wounded duck trick well in wrestling, most of the time I just find myself asking "if that other guy is trying to kick your ass why are you making it as obvious as possible where he should be hitting you".

[Matt D]

Wrestling is fiction. Sports are not.

[Jimmy Redman]

Because wrestling is rarely ever a fascimile of real sports. It is its own art form with established conventions and tropes. One of those is selling, that to express to the audience that you're hurt, you act like you're hurt. If you're not acting like you're hurt, you must not be hurt. It may not be what you'd do in a football game, but that's not what wrestling is trying to be. Wrestling is fake, the only way to know if someone is supposed to be hurt or not is for them to show that by selling.

[Grimmas]

 

My problem with the body part thing is if its ignored in selling afterwards. For example the Orton-Bryan match from earlier this year when the leg of Orton was destroyed for the first half and then ignored by him later on.

 

The whole selling thing in wrestling is bizarre. Like, I've yet to watch a baseball game, see a guy get hit in the arm with a line drive, then keep playing with it hanging limply at his side for six innings. Or that time Joe Thornton played a playoff series for the Bruins with a busted rib but he just forgot to sell I guess. The whole notion of pro wrestling is that it's a fake competitive event, and while there are guys that have used the ole' wounded duck trick well in wrestling, most of the time I just find myself asking "if that other guy is trying to kick your ass why are you making it as obvious as possible where he should be hitting you".

 

However in a movie if somebody gets shot in the leg, you know they will be limping the entire movie.

[ohtani's jacket]

 

My problem with the body part thing is if its ignored in selling afterwards. For example the Orton-Bryan match from earlier this year when the leg of Orton was destroyed for the first half and then ignored by him later on.

 

The whole selling thing in wrestling is bizarre. Like, I've yet to watch a baseball game, see a guy get hit in the arm with a line drive, then keep playing with it hanging limply at his side for six innings. Or that time Joe Thornton played a playoff series for the Bruins with a busted rib but he just forgot to sell I guess. The whole notion of pro wrestling is that it's a fake competitive event, and while there are guys that have used the ole' wounded duck trick well in wrestling, most of the time I just find myself asking "if that other guy is trying to kick your ass why are you making it as obvious as possible where he should be hitting you".

 

 

Exactly. The way some wrestlers sell a body part they should be out for the season with a torn ACL or medial meniscus tear yet they're out their next match happy as Larry. I much prefer wrestling styles where they don't try to injure an opponent's body part or where injuries are worked like accidents.

[JerryvonKramer]

Because wrestling is rarely ever a fascimile of real sports. It is its own art form with established conventions and tropes. One of those is selling, that to express to the audience that you're hurt, you act like you're hurt. If you're not acting like you're hurt, you must not be hurt. It may not be what you'd do in a football game, but that's not what wrestling is trying to be. Wrestling is fake, the only way to know if someone is supposed to be hurt or not is for them to show that by selling.

Correct and a better analogy than movies would be pantomime, or maybe cartoons, or maybe a dumb show. It's big and over the top and exagerrated -- and it needs to be for the guy in row Z to understand what's going on.

 

People looking for verismilitude whether akin to real sports or movies aren't watching the right thing: go and watch MMA or something if you want that. I look for consistency in selling within the confines of the absurd internal logic of wrestling's kayfabe reality.

[Dwide Schrude]

 

Criticism: The body part work didn't go anywhere.

 

Defender: Does body part work always have to go somewhere? Is it always a bad thing if it doesn't? Body part work is about strategy. Sometimes strategies fail. If Wrestler A kicks Wrestler B works over Wrestler B's leg early on, is the match flawed if they eventually go in a different direction? Is there an acceptable point where Wrestler B can stop hobbling around, or is it supposed to happen for the entirety of the match and affect every single thing from that point forward? That seems like kind of a zealot point of view to me, but I'd like to hear the counter-argument. I do think it should be sold, but I also think it's acceptable to move on at a certain point, depending on factors unique to that match like how it is laid out, how much time they are given, whether the direction they were previously taking was engaging or not, etc.

I agree that limb work doesn't always have to "go somewhere" but I just don't think if a wrestler's leg is getting worked on the entire match he should be doing a shooting star press or a phoenix splash by the end. Or at least have him struggling to do it a little.

 

But I get it, in a theoretically legit fight if a part of your body is hurting you're supposed to do everything in your power to not let your opponent know it. But then again, the argument is that pro wrestling isn't necessarily supposed to simulate a "legit fight."

[NintendoLogic]

Fuck realism in wrestling. Real fights are boring. Wrestling is great precisely because it's fake.

[Matt D]

Fuck realism in wrestling. Real fights are boring. Wrestling is great precisely because it's fake.

 

It can take advantage of narrative opportunities that real sports can't. It's crazy when they squander that for one reason or another.

[jackwebb]

I'm not a body-part zealot either. It only really bothers me when guys build the entire opening of a match around it, then rapidly transition to throwing bombs without any lingering effects.

My biggest problem with this is when a guy stop selling it and at some point realizes the mistake and starts selling it again. Since often they will eventually stop again. I am use to the WWE adrenaline fueled babyface comeback at this point. So only the stop and start selling jumps out at me enough for it to become an issue. Kurt Angle at Slammiversary XI is a good example of this in his match against AJ Styles.

[Dwide Schrude]

 

Fuck realism in wrestling. Real fights are boring. Wrestling is great precisely because it's fake.

 

It can take advantage of narrative opportunities that real sports can't. It's crazy when they squander that for one reason or another.

 

Different strokes for different folks.

 

I like both.

[Loss]

I want Matt D to sink his teeth into some UWF, UWFI, PWFG and RINGS and see if it changes his perspective on the sports aspect of pro wrestling. There's more than one way to do it right.

[Matt D]

You give me a list of matches to watch an an easy way to watch them and I'll watch whatever you want. I do look at lucha somewhat differently, but the stuff in lucha I like the very best is all based on the selling.

[Loss]

Fun! I will work on it!

[ohtani's jacket]

 

Fuck realism in wrestling. Real fights are boring. Wrestling is great precisely because it's fake.

 

It can take advantage of narrative opportunities that real sports can't. It's crazy when they squander that for one reason or another.

 

 

What narrative opportunities does it present that real sports can't? Wrestling is nowhere near as dramatic as real sports.

[Loss]

Since I'm seeing the word "stooging" thrown around a lot in other threads, I have to ask:

 

- Is stooging a bad thing? Is there inherent criticism when the word is used, or is it just meant as a descriptor?

- How does stooging differ from selling?

 

In other words, is this just a term used to describe wrestlers who sell for too much of the body of the match when they should be getting in more offense? Or is it a reference to comedy spots?

[JerryvonKramer]

I see stooging as things like begging off, heel bailing and not wanting to engage with the babyface, Arn Anderson's face when Ricky Steamboat is the mystery partner at the Clash, all of those aspects of the heel performance that put over the babyface as someone to be feared.

 

Dennis Condrey was very good at stooging.

 

I don't see it as a bad thing at all. I just think that the claims that Lou Thesz was a stooging champion are wildly exaggerated from a tiny moment during his match with Verne and that he was in no-way a stooging champ.

[jdw]

 

The whole selling thing in wrestling is bizarre. Like, I've yet to watch a baseball game, see a guy get hit in the arm with a line drive, then keep playing with it hanging limply at his side for six innings. Or that time Joe Thornton played a playoff series for the Bruins with a busted rib but he just forgot to sell I guess. The whole notion of pro wrestling is that it's a fake competitive event, and while there are guys that have used the ole' wounded duck trick well in wrestling, most of the time I just find myself asking "if that other guy is trying to kick your ass why are you making it as obvious as possible where he should be hitting you".

 

 

 

Yep... I never see an athlete selling an injury for long periods of time.

 

My guess is that Will, much like me, will be seeing that selling for the rest of his sporting life and view it as one of the more amazing things he's ever seen... even while rooting for the other team.

[jdw]

Or MJ's...

 

 

Or Zeke's...

 

 

Or Pete's...

 

 

And I'm being kind there by not posting a Pete-Vomits.Gif.

 

There are countless others.

[jdw]

Since I'm seeing the word "stooging" thrown around a lot in other threads, I have to ask:

 

- Is stooging a bad thing?

 

 

No.

 

Is there inherent criticism when the word is used, or is it just meant as a descriptor?

 

 

It's a descriptor.

 

- How does stooging differ from selling?

 

 

Heel goes to the top rope. He gets knocked off so that he straddles the ropes, and gives a facial that his balls hurt. Face jiggles the ropes up and down to cause the heel's balls to really hurt. Heel gives and over the top facial to get the pain across. Fans laugh their asses off.

 

It's a stooging spot.

 

Flair's spot getting shoved by the ref is a stooging spot. He's not "selling" for the ref, but stooging for the ref.

 

In other words, is this just a term used to describe wrestlers who sell for too much of the body of the match when they should be getting in more offense? Or is it a reference to comedy spots?

 

 

It's not always comedy, though usually is.

 

Selling too much isn't a problem. You've watched the Misawa-Kawada match that I linked to the other day. Kawada and Misawa sell their asses off, and are selling their asses off inside of ten minutes.

 

But there's not much stooging in it. Perhaps Kawada's "collapsing legs" come close, but it's something he looked at the time to be trying to replicate from boxing where people's legs just go out. The other selling, of which there is a metric ton of it, isn't stooging.

 

I just think that some fans have issue with the term being applied to their favorites. I love Arn and Tully and Terry, and they're all great at stooging when they work stooging spots.

 

People don't like "chicken shit" and "bitching" either. I love Savage, and when he put Liz between himself and the face, it's a great half bitching / half chicken shit spot... flat out one of my favorites.

 

Jim Cornette and Jimmy Hart and Bobby Heenan... all great at stooging, bitching and chicken shitting it up.

[shoe]

I use the term stooging to signify comedy spots.

[Hawkeye12]

Have you ever seen Kirk Gibson's 1988 World Series at bat? Guy looked helpless at the plate but he got around on one pitch that was all arms, and limped his way around the bases. The difference is in most real sports you DON'T want to sell because it gives the other side an advantage. But if they already know, like Randy Moss in the famous "mooning" game against the Packers, you may just be able to sell it enough to your own advantage. Moss had a bad hamstring and baited the corner into beating him for a TD.