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Modern Indie Wrestling


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#1 concrete1992

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 07:32 AM

Feels like there is enough indie fans on this board to have a thread like the Current WWE megathread. Show thoughts, upcoming stuff, or have point to make about an indie wrestler or feud from the mid 2000's. What have you. Now either this thread will seem unnecessary and Loss will delete it or it'll help extend from what BillThompson's Top 50 Workers list started with talking about current, not just WWE, wrestling. 



#2 BillThompson

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 08:37 AM

I'm big on the modern indie scene, and I think a majority of pro wrestling fans have a distorted take on modern indie wrestling that has been fueled by the idea put forth by WWE that no one on the indies is any good until they get their hands on them and mold them into truly great wrestlers.

 

Oh yeah, and an indie wrestler, Tomothy Thatcher, is totally the best wrestler in the world. He blows away anyone in WWE, Japan, and Mexico, so there is that going for the indies.



#3 concrete1992

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 10:20 AM

There's a fair bit of variety in indie wrestling if searched for. 

 

Timothy Thatcher is the man!

 

Speaking of Thatcher pretty excited that EVOLVE is doing this round robin thing involving Busick and Gulak as well. Within 3 nights you get Busick vs. Gulak again, Busick vs Thatcher 2, and Thatcher vs Gulak for like the 3rd or 4th time this year. Now if everything else in EVOLVE sounded as good. 



#4 BillThompson

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 12:34 PM

From the overwhelming majority I've heard that Busick/Thatcher, Gulack/Busick, and Thatcher/Gulak from those EVOLVE shows all ended up being great.

 

Oh, and it sounds like they ran an angle during the final show where Chris Hero attacked all three guys. I'm hoping this leads to him being added into their rotation because that would be great.



#5 concrete1992

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 02:25 PM

Chris Hero vs Timothy Thatcher is THE Evolve match I want right now. Give them that main event epic in the vein of Hero vs Hidaka.



#6 Tim Evans

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 04:25 PM

Thatcher/Busick live was amazing. I haven't seen the Beyond match they had months back so this was my first time seeing the feud. I can see how some people would hate it but I loved it. Gulak/Raideen was ok but I"m not a big fan of Raideen. Gulak/vs Rodrick Strong from earlier in the year was better.

 

Only way I ever want to see another Hero match again is when he gets healthy. He looked awful on Saturday vs Rich Swann.



#7 stomperspc

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 01:03 PM

Only way I ever want to see another Hero match again is when he gets healthy. He looked awful on Saturday vs Rich Swann.

 

Yea, Hero didn't look good nor was he moving all that well on those EVOLVE shows.  I am not sure how much of the "he was in a wheelchair two weeks ago" story they pushed on commentary was true and how much was added for dramatic effect, but I can certainly buy it based on the visual evidence. I hope Hero's training stuff works out for him.  After a decent start back on the indies, he has just been wandering aimlessly for the past five or six months.  If he is having major health issues on top of that, it might be time to reevaluate his career.



#8 Memphis Mark

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 04:11 PM

I realy don't watch indy wrestling. I do follow  ROH and NJPW , however I don't consider them to be indy promotions. I do read the results from indy shows and I notice there are a lot of inter -gender matches. Is this a new craze ? I don't understand the appeal of women wrestling men. . Does anyone watch the inter- gender matches ? If you do what is the appeal of these matches ? Also do you feel the inter- gender matches are good or bad for the business ? I  am just curious .



#9 funkdoc

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 05:45 PM

i think intergender stuff could work in theory - i know some women who are stronger than various male athletes out there. women also tend to have greater muscular endurance than men (due to lack of testosterone i think), which is something that would fit very well with pro wrestling and could be played up by a good commentator.

 

that said, a lot of intergender matches exist to appeal to fetishes and/or misogynistic fantasies more than anything else. it's been called out as one of the worst modern indie trends, and i am inclined to agree with that statement. this type of angle would require very careful writing & booking to work properly, and i wouldn't trust promotions whose fanbases are 90+% male...



#10 UKWildcat

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 06:18 PM

I realy don't watch indy wrestling. I do follow  ROH and NJPW , however I don't consider them to be indy promotions. I do read the results from indy shows and I notice there are a lot of inter -gender matches. Is this a new craze ? I don't understand the appeal of women wrestling men. . Does anyone watch the inter- gender matches ? If you do what is the appeal of these matches ? Also do you feel the inter- gender matches are good or bad for the business ? I  am just curious .


You see alot in Chikara most definitely. But Chikara is a total comic book (that's not an insult to the promotion)

#11 Steenalized

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 07:14 PM

There's been a real influx in the last year or so of intergender matches. Haven't seen enough to comment, but the wow factor of a man vs. woman doesn't appeal to me. 



#12 BillThompson

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 09:52 AM

It depends on the workers really. The comedy inter-gender matches don't do much for me, nor do the matches where a 105 pound woman somehow manages to toss around a 250 pound dude. However, watching Candice LeRae or Heidi Lovelace put on bumping and selling clinics can, and does, make certain intergender matches worthwhile.



#13 Mad Dog

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 10:07 AM

The Sara Del Ray vs. Ophidian match from the 12 Large Summit was a really good match and I hate intergender matches.

#14 stomperspc

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 11:12 AM

I am not a big fan of women's wrestling to begin with, so that probably influences my opinion on the inter-gender matches somewhat but I have zero interest in watching them.  Even in a worked environment, a guy (usually a relatively large guy) hitting & slamming a woman makes my skin crawl.  I saw those pictures of Candace LaRae after her no DQ tag match against the Young Bucks in PWG with her face entirely bloodied and that's pretty disgusting/offensive to me.  Don't mean to come off as haughty about this stuff but the women vs. men matches just creep me out.  The idea that the women are portrayed as capable against the male opponents doesn't make it comes on any better to me.

 

There are a ton of those matches these days with some promotions (AIW, AAW and CZW to name a few) doing entire shows around the concept.  I don't get the appeal.



#15 BillThompson

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 11:21 AM

For me it's not appealing in and of itself, but it's wrestling, no different than any other type of wrestling.



#16 Steenalized

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 11:23 AM

Heidi and Candace are pretty good at the rag doll bumping in their intergender matches. I haven't seen any Seleziya Sparx intergender matches yet, but I know for her it's the gimmick that she's as strong as a guy. I'm kinda with stomper though, I don't really like the idea of women being able to physically stand up to male opponents. That sounds sexist, but I have the same issue with a tiny guy standing up to someone considerably bigger unless it's booked very well. Rey Mysterio can do it, your average indy guy can't. There's weight classes in boxing and amateur wrestling and MMA for a reason. Pro wrestling is a different beast, but it does trigger my sense of  'this shouldn't be happening'. 



#17 concrete1992

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 02:56 PM

I'm not sure it is fair to say, but I haven't really seen a TON of diversity among women in indie wrestling. Like Luke Gallows and Michael Elgin are very far apart in what they do in the ring in what they do. With the rule of numbers there are a good chunk of guys who can work more like Luke Gallows even if a bigger part try and emulate an Elgin. Women's wrestling feels shrunk WAY down so that you have a smaller pool and much more working an ROH/SHIMMER type thing versus a Southern Brawl. I like that diversity and I don't feel I quite get that with women's wrestling. I like Mickie Knuckles but I don't know if I've seen 10 or even 5 who can work like she can. This goes into intergender because they make up half the equation. Totally cool with women and men wrestling each other but if I don't like the wrestlers in the match I'm probably not going to watch. Like I'm not a big enough fan of Athena to pay to see her against a Louis Lyndon, who I do like. The inverse, Kimber Lee I think is quite good but I don't care to see her against Jay Lethal cause I don't like half the equation. So I don't have any moral issues with it just I think it isn't often they'll pair two workers I like together. 



#18 Guest_Eduardo James_*

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 10:43 PM

Intergender wrestling is just goofy to watch. I don't care about the violence on women aspect because a lot of wrestling is just cartoon violence, but a lot of women just wrestle the wrong way. Imagine if Rey wrestled someone like Edge as an equal in power. Someone who wasn't a super heavyweight, but should definitely not get hit with stuff like vertical suplexes. Plus a lot of women are even lighter than Rey and when they get tossed around, it looks brutal. Then they kick out at 2. 

On the other hand, someone like Kong I have no issue watching toss someone like AJ around.



She might not have the height, but she has the weight and width. Watching someone like Candice LaRae or Daizee Haze wrestle even cruiserweights is awful.  



#19 rovert

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 04:16 AM

Heidi and Candace are pretty good at the rag doll bumping in their intergender matches. I haven't seen any Seleziya Sparx intergender matches yet, but I know for her it's the gimmick that she's as strong as a guy.

 

I get a massive kick out of Sparx. I discovered her after friends were Tweeting about her hilarious Vine and Instagram videos featuring her dog Peanut and her family. In terms of Wrestling she real is a talent to track. Myself and others keep falling into a trap of thinking we have her talents pegged then she shows something extra and/or constantly. She doesn't just do power spots either but nutso dives too. For a muscle girl she still has a pretty face and curves too. If WWE or TNA don't pick her up evidently they are fucking up.

 

Intergender Wrestling is a hard thing to discuss as it has too much scope for generalisations for something that has too many schools of thought operating. I understand the uncomfortableness and awkwardness criticisms but on a niche level AIW and Beyond Wrestling have shown that it can be done right and not something that hurts the perception of the male Wrestlers involved. 



#20 concrete1992

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 11:30 AM

I think I've seen a total of one Sparx match. And that was her match against Page in AIW last year. That was worked a lot in the vein of her being the underdog female. I have no idea how she works in various promotions now. I've seen her go from delivering backdrop drivers to twerking in female's faces. NO IDEA WHAT TO THINK!






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