Ranking prestige of top titles in All-Japan before the Triple Crown

[JerryvonKramer]

I've been reading around and watching 70s and 80s AJPW recently. I have a few questions / comments about the top titles. It's hard to figure this stuff out when they are talking Japanese. There was:

 

NWA International Heavyweight Championship - Dory Funk Jr held this from 1981, but ultimately this ends up as "Jumbo's belt" for much of the 80s. Am I right in thinking this was basically their world title?

 

PWF World Heavyweight Championship - this one seemed to change hands a bit more often, and Baba held it for a long time in the 1970s. The International title, that Dory won in 81, was not active in the 70s because a dude called Kintaro Ohki had essentially buggered off with it to South Korea. Would I be right in thinking then, that UNTIL 1981, this was All Japan's top title? Essentially their world title. After 81, more often than not, it seems to end up around Stan Hansen's waist, although Choshu had it for a while. Would a fitting analogy for the belt around that time be more like the World Title (big gold) in WWE for most of the 00s?

 

NWA United National Championship - well Jumbo held this in the 70s and then in the early 80s guys like Ted DiBiase, Michael Hayes (??! WTF) and David von Erich held it before it more or less became "Tenryu's belt" in the later 80s. To me this seems distinctly like the 3rd belt, and akin to the IC title or something like that.

 

Would everyone agree that in terms of prestige it was:

 

1. NWA International Heavyweight Championship

2. PWF World Heavyweight Championship

3. NWA United National Championship

 

Yes?

 

Okay, more ... So one thing I've tried to get my around with with All Japan is just how much they put over tag wrestling and how important that was in general. So as another major title you've got:

 

NWA International Tag Team Championship - so this is the thing that is most different from American wrestling. It seems like a guy could feasibly hold any of the above singles titles and yet ALSO hold these major tag titles. And matches over these tag title matches could just as easily main event any major show. It seems to me that the prestige of the tag titles was almost comparable to the prestige of the top belt.

 

Would it be fair to say then ...

 

1. NWA International Heavyweight Championship

2. NWA International Tag Team Championship

3. PWF World Heavyweight Championship

4. NWA United National Championship

 

However, ON TOP of those four titles, there are also the two major tournament championships every year:

 

Real World Tag League - this tournament seems like a very major deal, and winning it feels like it is in some senses more important than winning the tag titles or the single title.

 

Champions Carnival - seems like this didn't run between 82 and 91. Would I be right in thinking that it held less prestige than the Tag League? Anyone know why they didn't run it in those years?

 

So overall prestige rankings might be something like ...

 

1. Real World Tag League

2. NWA International Heavyweight Championship

3. NWA International Tag Team Championship

4. Champions Carnival [when it was around]

5. PWF World Heavyweight Championship

6. NWA United National Championship

 

Thoughts?

[dawho5]

Champion's Carnival seemed to me like it was just a gimmicked way to set up challengers for the TC in the 90s. Also, it tended to shake up the way matches were wrestled because it was a 30 minute time limit rather than a 60 (same with RWTL, but as you mentioned it was more important). I always looked at CC as a nice break from all the excessive stuff in the late 90s and go back to a better wrestling style. As far as why it was stopped in 82, I've got no idea.

[PeteF3]

It was stopped in '82 because it wasn't drawing (as tournaments tend not to do, though the RWTL was always a big deal), and because in the days of DCORs and people not jobbing, it was getting too difficult to book.

[jdw]

All Japan's "World Title" in the 80s was the NWA World Title. Same in the 70s. All Japan was a territory, just like Mid-Atlantic / JCP. The US Title in JCP wasn't their "world title". It was the top title in the territory, and when the NWA Champ came through town, that took precedent.

 

Anyway...

 

The titles were basically this:

 

International Title = Rikidozan's Title

 

It was the top title in JWA. Rikidozan dominated it. He died and it lay dormant for a while.

 

When they brought it back, Baba got it which was a sign that he and not Toyonobori was the top dog in the promotion. Toyonobori got the picture and eventually left.

 

When Baba jumped from JWA to create his own promotion, it went to Oki. JWA died, and then it had an indifferent life in Japan. Oki didn't defend the title in Japan between the close of JWA in 1973 and 1980, when he made a trio of defenses in IWE. Instead, he jobbed in an NWF Title match to Inoki in 1974, and then jobbed his old Asian Title (another old Rikidozan title that had passed on to him) to Baba in 1977 in a PWF Title vs Asian Title match.

 

Baba bought it essentially for Jumbo to chase, then win.

 

United National Title = Inoki's Title

 

A secondary title to give to Inoki since he wasn't getting the Int'l Title around Baba's waist.

 

Inoki got fired from JWA, and it went to Sakaguchi as Baba's #2. Sak jobbed this on the way out, and it ended up around Takachiho's waist as JWA died in one of the funnier historical footnotes of the era.

 

Baba in All Japan brought it back, and it was the secondary title of All Japan for Jumbo. Similar role as the belt played in JWA.

 

PWF Title = Baba's Title

 

This actually was a World Title when it was created as Baba didn't yet have the NWA deal, which was still with JWA. When the JWA died, Baba got the NWA deal over Inoki, and Brisco came over on tour in early 1974. NWA vs PWF Title match, DCOR, and Baba stopped calling the PWF Title a "world title". Pretty safe to suspect that in January they knew the payoff to the deal was that Brisco would come back in December and do a title turn around with Baba. I get that Jack liked to pretend that the US NWA didn't know this was going on and that he (Brisco) got paid nicely by Baba to do this... but that's not credible. Baba was in the deal an NWA member. You don't fuck with the NWA Title with a real change in those days without the NWA signing off on it. Baba also grew to be one of the more powerful and respected NWA promoters... you don't do that if you're screwing with the title without agreement of the home office and money going that direction.

 

Anyway, the PWF Title was the #1 title in All Japan in that period.

 

Where it gets murky is that there was a transition period in All Japan where Jumbo was getting elevated to being the Ace. There wasn't a moment where Jumbo wasn't the Ace one day, and the next day he was the Ace. I've gone over it in other threads, but it's a gradual thing with a series of events.

 

In turn, there isn't a clear moment where Baba says, "I'm not the Ace". It's the same gradual thing. Baba kind of booked it nicely so that in the stretch where Jumbo was cementing himself as the Ace, Baba had passed the PWF Title over to Hansen. Once Jumbo was more clearly the Ace, Baba took one last spin with the PWF Title before phasing himself more fully downward.

 

Timelining it...

 

The PWF Title was #1 from the time it was created until the Int'l was bought. The PWF and Int'l were then roughly on par until the PWF went to Hansen and the Int'l went to Jumbo on the same series. People might not think that based on how the Int'l was elevated from later on, but it's really how it was placed. The only time the belts were defended on the same card in that 1981-83 period, Baba-Race was above Brody-Dory. Even as late as 1984, the major Sumo Hall card had Baba-Hansen at the top with the Martel-Jumbo AWA Title rematch in the semi, while the Martel-Jumbo Int'l Title match was six days earlier on a lesser card.

 

After that... the Int'l was #1, the PWF was #1-A, and the UN was the secondary title for Tenryu. The PWF got a pretty respectable push in 1986 around Choshu: good buildings relative to the Int'l title, and a good match ups. It faded down the stretch of 1986, and was pretty pedestrian in Hansen's run the next year until they heated up Stan vs Tenryu which eventually lead to the PWF and UN getting unified. Which across a year led to the Triple Crown.

 

As far as how the tourneys fit in... they're different beasts.

 

I don't think the Carny ranked all that highly from 1973-82. It wasn't meaningless, but it's meaning might be best reflected by how it was covered in Classics. Not very heavily. I'd have to look, but I don't even think most Finals aired.

 

The PWF Title was above the Int'l Tag Titles while it was #1 since it was Baba's title.

 

The RWTL... it just kind of clicked. To a degree they got lucky with the first one. Where it would rate? It's a once a year thing, so it's kind of off the books. It's like the Rumble to the WWF Title. It's big while it's going on, then it's not going on and it's less important. It didn't even have the hook of "Winner Gets Mania Title Shot" to it. For example, the Funks and Baba & Hansen traded 5 of the first 6 of them from 1977-82. On the heels of those, there was exactly 1 NWA Int'l Tag Title match between the teams from 1978-83. The other team that won it in that stretch was Brody & Snuka in 1981. Their only challenge for the NWA Int'l Tag Title came *before* that RWTL. So... it really was it's own island, a Rumble with better matches.

[jdw]

There's also the PWF Tag Titles. There were kind of the Monster Gaijin Titles, given to Hansen & Brody and then Hansen & DiBiase. 1987 became a bit of a role reversal as the Road Warriors got the Int'l Tag Titles when shortly before Jumbo & Tenryu split, and went off on a 15 month run with them was a bit limited on defenses. In turn, the Revolution got the PWF Tag Titles when DiBise left for the WWF. It became the one more regularly defended, and played a decent and regular role in the Revolution's push.

 

Jumbo & Yatsu, cleaned all that up by beating the Revolution and Road Warriors within a weak. In a sense foreshadowing the Triple Crown: the titles were unified and defended as if one title, the World Tag Titles. It got a major push.

[ohtani's jacket]

The story that is always told in Japan is that after Jumbo defeated Brody for the NWA International Heavyweight title, Baba went into the dressing room and told Jumbo "kyo kara omae ga esu da" or "you are the ace from today."

[JerryvonKramer]

Thanks for all this.

 

I guess my main question remains the one about how the tag titles compare to the singles title, because as a viewer watching, the tag titles seem as major a deal as any of the singles titles. However, none of my All-Japan viewing has ever been full cards from start to finish, so while I'll often see lots of matches from the same time period, I seldom have the context of how the card plays out. It's hard to work out some of these things.

 

To what extent were the tag titles treated as being as significant as the singles titles?

[sek69]

I remember the Road Warriors being acknowledged as NWA International Champs on Saturday Night TBS shows in 1987, I believe they even had the belts with them. I recall being surprised a Japanese title would be recognized on US TV (I wasn't quite smartened up to how the NWA was world wide in those days).

[jdw]

The story that is always told in Japan is that after Jumbo defeated Brody for the NWA International Heavyweight title, Baba went into the dressing room and told Jumbo "kyo kara omae ga esu da" or "you are the ace from today."

 

Sorta, kinda. It wasn't a Day/Night, Black/White, 0:1 moment on how they were positioned to one another. Like I said the last time this came up:

 

Aug-31-1983: wins Int'l Title from Brody

Nov/Dec-1983: teams with Tenryu rather than Baba in Tag League

Feb-22-1984: wins AWA Title from Bockwinkel

May 1984: Baba & Jumbo vacate Int'l Tag Title

Sep-03-1984: Jumbo & Tenryu win Int'l Tag Title

Dec-12-1984: Jumbo & Tenryu win Tag League

 

The first one was winning Rikidozan's Title. Then you had the multi-stage process of moving away from teaming with Baba. Then you have him winning a US version of the World Title, which Rikidozan, Baba and Inoki had done as Ace's of promotions. Then cementing Tenryu as Jumbo's partner in his new dynastic tag team.

 

You could point to the first, or the AWA, or... it really is a series of things. In the same time frame you have Baba regaining the PWF Title from Hansen in July 1984, so it's not like he was put out to pasture.

 

 

And on the last point as shown earlier in this thread, when Baba challenged to get the PWF back from Hansen, it was the Main Event on the big card rather than Jumbo challenged Martel to get back a World Title while the Jumbo-Martel Int'l Title was thrown on a lesser earlier in the series.

 

Jumbo was elevated up to #1, but Baba gently moved himself over to #1-A.

[jdw]

I guess my main question remains the one about how the tag titles compare to the singles title, because as a viewer watching, the tag titles seem as major a deal as any of the singles titles. However, none of my All-Japan viewing has ever been full cards from start to finish, so while I'll often see lots of matches from the same time period, I seldom have the context of how the card plays out. It's hard to work out some of these things.

 

To what extent were the tag titles treated as being as significant as the singles titles?

 

Seeing full cards isn't terribly relevant to how the tag titles compare to the singles titles. Many of the same guys in the 80s hold the tag titles that hold the singles titles, so it's not like an MSG card where the Samoans hold the Tag Title while Patera holds the IC and they all can be defended. In April 1984 they create the PWF Tag Title to go full boat with the titles that they'll have until 1988/89 when they start merging them together. So take a look at the next major show they run:

 

07/31/84 Budokan

Genichiro Tenryu p Alexis Smirnoff

AWA World Title: Rick Martel DCO Jumbo Tsuruta

PWF Title: Giant Baba p Stan Hansen to win title

 

* Jumbo is the Int'l champ.

* Hansen is the PWF champ

* Tenryu is the UN champ

* Int'l Tag Title is vacant with Jumbo & Tenryu chasing it

* Hansen & Brody are the PWF Tag champs

 

The Int'l Title isn't being defended because Jumbo is trying to get the AWA Title back.

 

The UN Title isn't being defended because Tenryu defended it earlier in the week on the same card as Jumbo's Int'l defense. They could have placed it on this, but it was common to spread the title defense around a bit to draw.

 

Int'l Tag Title can't be on the line because Jumbo is occupied with the AWA Title challenge.

 

The PWF Tag Title can't be on the line because Hansen is occupied with the PWF defense, and Brody isn't even on the series.

 

The card below these match is pretty insignificant, that's even counting the Jr. defense since it's around Mighty's waist, which makes for a "down" period of the belt in AJPW.

 

* * * * *

 

On where the tag "rank" relative to singles titles, technically "below":

 

PWF/Int'l > Int'l Tag

 

This was technically the case in JWA as well.

 

In terms of "push", it can vary over the course of a year or years.

 

The Int'l Tag Title clearly got a massive push at the start of 1986 because it was an avenue to get Jumbo, Choshu and Tenryu all in the ring with a title on the line. But that push was initially resolved by early March, at which point the focus was transitioned to Hansen vs Choshu and Hansen vs Jumbo. There are 10 title matches involving those combos between 3/29/86 and 10/21/86, and the Int'l Tag Title is off doing less important things. Interestingly enough, one the Hansen vs Jumbo/Choshu stuff is done (Jumbo wins the Int'l Title back from Hansen on 10/21/86), a week later we have a Choshu & Yatsu vs Jumbo & Tenryu Int'l Tag Title match as a lead-in to the Tag League.

 

Going back before that, you'll run into similar things. There were times where the Tag Title match for the series was the bigger, more attractive one than the PWF (or Int'l in JWA) ones. They were more exceptions to rules, but they also weren't so uncommon that it's mind blowing to see the Int'l Tag Title pushed more in a series. For example, the entire New Year Series in 1969 was built around Baba & Inoki vs Hodge & Snyder. That doesn't mean the other titles (Int'l Title, All Asia Tag Title, Oki's All Asian Title) didn't have their moments. But the Int'l Tag Title was then anchor that series.

 

The UN Title was below the Int'l Tag Title, and of course the Int'l Title. But Baba was also smart to let it shine at times. The series where Billy lifted the UN Title from Jumbo, and Jumbo was expected to get the title back at the big card, was devoid of Int'l and Int'l Tag defenses. Spotlight on Jumbo, in a year where a decent amount of the spotlight was on him.

 

John

[jdw]

I remember the Road Warriors being acknowledged as NWA International Champs on Saturday Night TBS shows in 1987, I believe they even had the belts with them. I recall being surprised a Japanese title would be recognized on US TV (I wasn't quite smartened up to how the NWA was world wide in those days).

 

That was kind of cool. Likely Baba let them take the titles back to the US for some photo opps.

[JerryvonKramer]

Bumping this not only for people to read the tremendous knowledge drop from jdw making some excellent posts, but also because I'm wondering who or what was "the PWF"?

[...TG]

A very cursory wikipedia & google search says that the Pacific Wrestling Federation was a sanctioning body invented when All Japan started up in 1973. There's a few indies that have used a similar name, but in the All Japan context it seems to be just a fake sanctioning body for the titles.

[JerryvonKramer]

So Lord James Blears was the PWF President, later it was Hansen, then Hase, then Kobashi, and I believe these days it is Dory.

 

But what I don't get is ... if AJPW was part of the NWA, weren't the NWA their official sanctioning body as per the other territories? Why this additional layer of bureaucracy? On top of that at various times you have a President of AJPW too.

[ohtani's jacket]

A few things happened between Baba founding All Japan, becoming an NWA member in February '73, and Brisco's first tour in January of '74.

 

After Baba left JWA to form All Japan, the Momota family presented him with Rikidozan's old NWA International Heavyweight belt, which he used o create a World Heavyweight title for his new promotion. On All Japan's second night (10/22/72), the World Heavyweight Championship Series began; a series of 10 matches which lasted through to 2/27/73 when Baba defeated Bobo Brazil and was awarded the World title.

 

At that stage, the title didn't have a name yet so Baba came up with the idea of a sanctioning body with his old buddy, Blears. Baba was officially recognised by the Pacific Wrestling Federation as PWF World Heavyweight Champion on 3/16/73, the day before the first Champion Carnival series.

 

Baba defended it as a World title throughout the rest of 1973, but after his double title match with Jack Brisco on 1/23/74, the title was reduced to the PWF Heavyweight title as per the NWA's demands that no promotion under its umbrella have their own World Championship titles. .

So, basically the idea at first was for All Japan's top title to be a sanctioned World Heavyweight Championship and the plan changed slightly after Baba started bringing the NWA Champion in.