Stan Hansen

[Cap]

Yeah... I just don't see the argument that he isn't a great singles wrestler. He has - for my taste - a slew of very good to elite singles matches, all outlined above.  I don't think we are talking about "good matches" as the line of demarcation at all.  I'm a touch lower on the Misawa matches myself, but even with that I think of Hansen as a quality peak candidate in both tag and singles.

[ohtani's jacket]

I'm not saying he didn't have great matches. I agree that the matches against Andre, Colon, Kobashi and Kawada are great, but that's not a lot of matches. I can think of maligned workers who blow that out of the water.  

[Matt D]

The Hennig singles match is great too. 

[JerryvonKramer]

Where are people on that Leon White match from 1986 these days? I thought it was incredible during AWA set.

[Cap]

I'm in on it. I think it counts as great.

 

List of singles matches from what I have rated that I would consider great. This is FAR from exhaustive as others would have watched more, rated more and/or have a better memory.

 

Backlund (9/30/80)
Andre (9/23/81)*
Funk (9/11/82)
Funk (4/14/83)*
Idol (10/10/83)
Baba (7/30/85)
White (3/13/86)
Hennig (5/31/86)*
Colon (1/6/87)*
Colon (2/28/87)
Colon (3/14/87)*
Kobashi (9/4/91)*
Kobashi (3/27/92)
Kobashi (7/8/82)*
Kawada (2/28/83)*
Kobashi (4/16/93)*
Kobashi (7/29/93)*
Kobashi (4/10/94)*
Kobashi (9/5/96)*

*Elite

 

Some Caveats and Thoughts

1. I am admittedly higher on the Kobashi/Hansen series than most. I think it is the greatest series/rivalry in the history of wrestling, so I'm obviously going to skew high on it and both wrestlers.

2. However, I am lower on the Bock, Inoki, and Misawa matches than some. I also either haven't seen or haven't seen to rate many other praised great matches from him (example, I haven't seen a singles match with Tenryu since I started trying to keep track of stuff like this), so I consider it sort of a wash at worst.

3. To me it is less about the great matches and more about the elite. On my list of 4.75 and higher matches Hansen is second only to probably Kobashi.

4. All a matter of taste obviously, but I don't think I am some crazy outlier here.  Some may have different matches of course.

5. All told that is 19 great matches and I actually think I am probably underselling it.

[elliott]

1 hour ago, ohtani's jacket said:

I'm not saying he didn't have great matches. I agree that the matches against Andre, Colon, Kobashi and Kawada are great, but that's not a lot of matches. I can think of maligned workers who blow that out of the water.  

 

Who are they and what are the matches?

[strobogo]

I would definitely say the glory of Stan Hansen is the chaotic nature of his being can produce excellence or a mess, but ultimately everything Stan Hansen does in the ring feels authentic to what Stan Hansen should do in the ring.

[Cap]

Just now, strobogo said:

I would definitely say the glory of Stan Hansen is the chaotic nature of his being can produce excellence or a mess, but ultimately everything Stan Hansen does in the ring feels authentic to what Stan Hansen should do in the ring.

Yeah, this is it.  For me, his style doesn't hit every time, but when it does hit it's a home run... and it hits plenty.  I think I am more a peak-oriented fan, so that doesn't bother me in the least.

[elliott]

That's one of the key points about Stan. He never did something that didnt make sense for Stan Hansen to do. Consistently logical

[JerryvonKramer]

Where are people on these tag matches which I had at either ***** or ****3/4?

 

Terry Funk and Dory Funk Jr vs. Stan Hansen & Terry Gordy (8/31/83)

Genichiro Tenryu & Toshiaki Kawada vs. Stan Hansen & Terry Gordy (12/16/88)

Jumbo Tsuruta & Kenta Kobashi vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Stan Hansen (7/15/89)

Giant Baba & Rusher Kimura vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Stan Hansen (11/29/89)

Jumbo Tsuruta & Yoshiaki Yatsu vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Stan Hansen (12/6/89)

 

If you throw in the Inoki one from 5/9/1980 we're on for a list of 25-30 great to all-time level matches.

 

[Cap]

Ohhh yeah.. I was just making a point about his singles matches, but if I were including tags every one of those would be on my list. I love every one of them.

[KB8]

What's the Inoki one from 1980? I don't think I've seen that before, which is exciting. Because every other one of those tags listed there are tremendous. 

[Matt D]

Five years are a lot of years and I think I've pushed myself to a point where I very much know how I, as me, should watch at least 1989 AJPW tags.

So, while I am not at all looking forward to this, I do think i need to go back through many of those early-mid 80s Hansen/Brody and Hansen/Dibiase tags that I strongly disliked last time around and see if I don't enjoy them more now.

Also, I want to see some Brock/Hansen comparisons, because I think on paper, they'd seem extremely similar and they may create similar emotional effects, but when you get in the specifics of what Hansen actually does relative to what Brock actually does in their matches in order to achieve those effects, they're hugely different offensively.

[Boss Rock]

Yeah those 80's tags are all awesome. I even really enjoy the '84 tag league final with Brody against the Funks.

Also cosign on Hansen's sense of chaos being a huge mark in his favor. 

[JerryvonKramer]

1 hour ago, Matt D said:

So, while I am not at all looking forward to this, I do think i need to go back through many of those early-mid 80s Hansen/Brody and Hansen/Dibiase tags that I strongly disliked last time around and see if I don't enjoy them more now.

I have a vague plan to watch the Real-world Tag Leagues in order (and as completely as possible) in the coming weeks and months, somewhat unrelated to GWE, but at least you may have someone else watching this stuff with you. I made a start with the 1977 tourney last night.

 

My chief memory of Hansen and DiBiase is that they are a very solid team with good but unspectacular matches, but it might look different watching it all in context.

[MoS]

What also helps Hansen is that brawling is an evergreen wrestling style. Other styles age and evolve, but brawling since the beginning has been pretty much perfect for wrestling. 

[DylanZero]

He's another that ranks high in "can put on any random match and it might not necessarily be a good match but hot damn something awesome will happen at least once" category along with Flair and Bull Nakano.

 

I also consider Hansen/Spivey to be one of the true underrated teams of all time.

 

Top 10-20 level for me.

[strobogo]

15 minutes ago, JerryvonKramer said:

I have a vague plan to watch the Real-world Tag Leagues in order (and as completely as possible) in the coming weeks and months, somewhat unrelated to GWE, but at least you may have someone else watching this stuff with you. I made a start with the 1977 tourney last night.

 

My chief memory of Hansen and DiBiase is that they are a very solid team with good but unspectacular matches, but it might look different watching it all in context.

No that's a pretty accurate memory. Ted is real dry until the 1985 tours where he suddenly adopts Stan's look and energy for a bit, and in 1986 he has a lot more energy and intensity to his work, but they never really gel as a team. Part of that could be that it seems like everything on tape with Ted also involves Tenryu, and despite what feels like 100 matches between the two, they never had chemistry.

[ohtani's jacket]

7 hours ago, elliott said:

 

Who are they and what are the matches?

It's better if I didn't say. I like strobogo's take on Hansen a lot. My gut tells me that because Hansen is such an ideal brawler that folks can't see past the positives and put him through the wringer like they do with Flair, but for now I'm going to rewatch some of the matches people mentioned. 

[ohtani's jacket]

The Hennig match is good, but it's nowhere near a classic. I will say that I thought Hansen did a great job of selling for a guy, who to my mind, is not the most credible brawler. I also loved all of his little adlibs. I didn't like the finishing stretch much, and I thought Hennig was kind of mediocre overall, but it was a pretty good studio match. To consider it a classic, it would need to have something that elevated it over other great studio matches and I didn't see that at all. 

[elliott]

I ranked Stan Hansen #5 in 2016. Nailed. It. 

[Ma Stump Puller]

Dissing Hansen seems dirty, but given the complaint is more or less about his general match structure and not just about him in particular, I feel like there's something to it. When I was deep diving 1995/2000 AJPW, the main negative thing that stuck out about Hansen was that a LOT of his matches ran around the same dance of some brawling, but also lots of boring, aimless arm work; this was mentioned last page but it shone out for me when actually going though it because it was so prevalent. 

I totally get why it's there and it makes perfect sense psychology-wise, it's just that every second match just devolves into "let's work the arm" and then it mostly doesn't even get brought up in the finish bar maybe some small hints of selling, and it gets especially shitty when the UWFI guys come in and we get the suggestion of submissions being more dangerous: cross armbreakers are instant-death holds if applied fully, double wrist locks and other stuff are now enough to even threaten the top top guys on the card. Hansen does not play ball with any of this. There's a match he has with Tamon Honda around about 1996 where Honda works the arm for basically the entire match, Hansen sells great for all of it: probably one of the few times Honda seemed motivated as well: but then he just wins with the Lariat at the end. No drama, no nothing, it's just completely ignored. Even the cross armbreaker gets a flash of selling but it doesn't go anywhere. Honda just eats shit. It's not always the case (there's some good drama built off it in the later years, especially when Hansen doesn't have that big megastar booking anymore) but there's a good few times where this same formula emerges, and it's almost always boring because it never leads anywhere. Like a Hansen/Honda match "should" logically rule, but because of that formula it drags it down to a boring slog.

 

 

 

 

[fxnj]

On 4/8/2023 at 3:37 PM, Ma Stump Puller said:

Dissing Hansen seems dirty, but given the complaint is more or less about his general match structure and not just about him in particular, I feel like there's something to it. When I was deep diving 1995/2000 AJPW, the main negative thing that stuck out about Hansen was that a LOT of his matches ran around the same dance of some brawling, but also lots of boring, aimless arm work; this was mentioned last page but it shone out for me when actually going though it because it was so prevalent. 

I totally get why it's there and it makes perfect sense psychology-wise, it's just that every second match just devolves into "let's work the arm" and then it mostly doesn't even get brought up in the finish bar maybe some small hints of selling, and it gets especially shitty when the UWFI guys come in and we get the suggestion of submissions being more dangerous: cross armbreakers are instant-death holds if applied fully, double wrist locks and other stuff are now enough to even threaten the top top guys on the card. Hansen does not play ball with any of this. There's a match he has with Tamon Honda around about 1996 where Honda works the arm for basically the entire match, Hansen sells great for all of it: probably one of the few times Honda seemed motivated as well: but then he just wins with the Lariat at the end. No drama, no nothing, it's just completely ignored. Even the cross armbreaker gets a flash of selling but it doesn't go anywhere. Honda just eats shit. It's not always the case (there's some good drama built off it in the later years, especially when Hansen doesn't have that big megastar booking anymore) but there's a good few times where this same formula emerges, and it's almost always boring because it never leads anywhere. Like a Hansen/Honda match "should" logically rule, but because of that formula it drags it down to a boring slog.

 

 

 

 

I rewatched the 96 Honda match (plus the 94 match for some extra context) after reading this, and I completely disagree. There's a fuckton more going on with the arm psychology than you're giving credit for. The arm strategy works because Honda knows he's screwed if he just tries to brawl and the lariat arm is an easy weak point. I think people misunderstand the arm attack psychology as being "he's attacking the arm so Hansen shouldn't ever be able to use the lariat" when really it's more "he's attacking the arm so Hansen's going to have a harder time retaking control with it and he needs to be more selective of when he uses the lariat." Basically, attacking the arm gives Honda a means to believably control most of the match against a guy who way outranks him, but there's never any doubt that Hansen still has the lariat in his back pocket. And the strategy actually works pretty well, with Hansen selling the arm quite a bit and generally being way more giving overall compared to the 94 match. I read what you said about Honda's armbar and I expected that he'd just let Honda slap it on and sit in it, but there's some nice urgency in how he immediately goes for a counter and doesn't let Honda fully apply it. Finish makes sense when you consider each guys' place in the hierarchy and how it reinforces it. Honda left himself open for a second and that was all Hansen needed to score the knockout shot, getting across how dangerous he still was at that point. No, it wasn't a forgotten classic but it was good.

[Ma Stump Puller]

4 hours ago, fxnj said:

I rewatched the 96 Honda match (plus the 94 match for some extra context) after reading this, and I completely disagree. There's a fuckton more going on with the arm psychology than you're giving credit for. The arm strategy works because Honda knows he's screwed if he just tries to brawl and the lariat arm is an easy weak point. I think people misunderstand the arm attack psychology as being "he's attacking the arm so Hansen shouldn't ever be able to use the lariat" when really it's more "he's attacking the arm so Hansen's going to have a harder time retaking control with it and he needs to be more selective of when he uses the lariat." Basically, attacking the arm gives Honda a means to believably control most of the match against a guy who way outranks him, but there's never any doubt that Hansen still has the lariat in his back pocket. And the strategy actually works pretty well, with Hansen selling the arm quite a bit and generally being way more giving overall compared to the 94 match. I read what you said about Honda's armbar and I expected that he'd just let Honda slap it on and sit in it, but there's some nice urgency in how he immediately goes for a counter and doesn't let Honda fully apply it. Finish makes sense when you consider each guys' place in the hierarchy and how it reinforces it. Honda left himself open for a second and that was all Hansen needed to score the knockout shot, getting across how dangerous he still was at that point. No, it wasn't a forgotten classic but it was good.

I mean that's surely one way of seeing it (and certainly how they wanted that to look like) the issue that this exact feature above, this exact logic, it's repeated over and over and over again for nearly every Hansen match in the 95/2000 block. It KILLS tension and turns everything into slow working-hold grapplefests with not a lot to really dig though, because you know Hansen isn't in any real danger (which was what they were trying half-heartedly to push with these submissions).

doesn't help that bar a few high profile matches it never matters much whatsoever bar Hansen selling a bit. His better matches come when he's actually the underdog (especially around 98/99) and having to take a lot of shots just to rush in and try to keep control. Sometimes they don't even care to try to make it convincing, there's a few occasions where Hansen just gets grabbed, throws some punches and they ignore it completely afterwards. He CAN make drama out of it, but a lot of the time he felt content to sit in the backseat and not really do a whole lot to make it interesting.

 

 

 

 

 

[justinsdrown]

Definitely in my top twenty. Maybe even top ten.