Jerry "The King" Lawler

[y2stump]

Lawler got a great match out of The Miz....case closed, best of all time.

[dgrblue]

Lawler will probably be my highest ranked American. I'm tempted to call him a number 1 contender because I love his best matches and feuds so much but I doubt I'll end up actually putting him at number 1. My conflict is determining how much value I'm going to place on his range. I appreciate that Lawler has a great emotional range. He can be fun, funny, competitive, serious, hateful, violent, brave, or cowardly. He can work big and he can work small. I love him as a babyface and while some don't enjoy it I love him as the cowardly heel, hiding weapons and doing whatever he can to win.

 

The difficulty for me is his lack of range when it comes to the kind of matches he has. One one hand, he is so good at being Jerry Lawler that I like how he handles himself in a mat based encounter. That is, I like that he plays upon the fact that he is limited in that part of his game. He is a brawler and not a grappler and that comes across when his opponents take him to the mat. Those qualities really enhance his matches with Bockwinkel and Martel. On the other hand, I wish he had a mat based match I really loved. The draw against Race is really good but I'm looking for something more than one match where he worked a really good headlock.

 

Sometimes that bothers me and sometimes it doesn't. I guess I have a lot of time to think about that.

Does Lawler gets credit for tye Andy Kaufman series, or his "beating" Andre?

[goodhelmet]

Of course.

[El-P]

And then, there's that one punch too many, in every match, that just get me out of the groove thinking "Come on, can't you think of *anything* else ? ANYTHING ?". I actually enjoy Lawler quite a bit, thinks he's very good, great at points, annoying at other, but I'm mostly really positive about him. But that great miracle worker he's been pimped to be ? Simply not the case for me.

 

Had a mostly godawful sense of fashion too, with terrible color (un)coordinated outfits. So bad it's actually good in a kitsch way, so, yeah, I actually enjoy that aspect of the King too. Very Memphis when you think about it.

[rzombie1988]

And then, there's that one punch too many, in every match, that just get me out of the groove thinking "Come on, can't you think of *anything* else ? ANYTHING ?". I actually enjoy Lawler quite a bit, thinks he's very good, great at points, annoying at other, but I'm mostly really positive about him. But that great miracle worker he's been pimped to be ? Simply not the case for me.

 

Had a mostly godawful sense of fashion too, with terrible color (un)coordinated outfits. So bad it's actually good in a kitsch way, so, yeah, I actually enjoy that aspect of the King too. Very Memphis when you think about it.

Neon colors and bad fashion weren't just a Lawler thing in the 80's/90's. It was a world wide trend.

[rzombie1988]

The only person who I'd think could even challenge Lawler for #1 in America is Flair.

 

I have no idea how to compare him with some of the foreign wrestlers though. The big thing is the talking. We really don't know how good any of the non-Americans are on the mic. He's even with them though on the great matches and likely above them on carrying crap to good matches.

[GOTNW]

When I was younger (keep in mind I am still younger than pretty much everyone on the board) I envisioned old wrestling as something that had a lot of shitty punches and blade jobs off of ringpost bumps. This was obviusly ignorant and incorrect prejudice and watching old puro for the "best of 70s" project at puroresu.tv changed that. My taste has shifted dramatically since then but I'm still not big on the Memphis/Mid South style. I don't like his pimped stuff enough to view him as a GOAT contender or anywhere near that, but I appreciate his minimalistic work and the quality of his punches. I'll rank him-though not very high.

[GOTNW]

[NotJayTabb]

I know there's been a lot of debate in this project about post-peak work, and how much of a feather in the cap that is. Well, yesterday I watched a Lawler/Funk match from 2003 that was glorious, and a real sign of how effective King working smart could be. It happened in Philly in 3PW, the Blue Meanie's wretched early 00's promotion, and this meant WWE employee Lawler was the heel against ECW alumni Funk. From the start, you can see Lawler is in better shape than Funk, and he just wears down Funk with a series of perfect punches to the face. The crowd get right behind the beaten-down old Funker, which only causes Lawler to grow in confidence and get right in the face of the finger-flipping crowd. There's a beautiful moment where Funk is face down, bleeding onto the mat and convulsing, and Lawler drops the 2nd rope diving fist into the back of Funk's head, who stops moving straight away. Like using a bolt-gun on a cow in an abbatoir. Funk kicks out of 4 pildrivers (my only complaint with the match), so Lawler gets on the mic and says one of his WWE friends taught him a move...followed by his indy stunner and a loud cackle to troll the fans. Ultimately, he loses, but Lawler and Funk have this crowd in the palm of their hands and rather than just coast it, they put on something special. On a card where Nosawa and Balls Mahoney have a shitfest that is the epitome of working stupid, this is so impressive.

[Jimmy Redman]

KING!

 

I don't really have anything substantial to add to his case, it's obvious at this point. King is the man. Laundry list of great stuff in Memphis: Dundee, Dutch, Bock, Terry Funk, Idol, Gilbert, Bam Bam, Bundy, Blackwell, Snowman, etc.

 

I don't think I've seen a single match of his from WWF. In the 90s I mean. Is there anything interesting in that run? A Bret match? How long was he really active? Did he have any matches in ECW?

 

Even as an Old Man he's awesome, still being the fucking Man against Miz or whoever else in recent years. He even dropped the strap to a fucking heart attack.

 

Awesome punches, insane charisma, incredible comeback, great selling. He's just super, one of the best babyfaces ever. Should be in my Top 10 somewhere.

[PeteF3]

Bret vs. Lawler from SummerSlam '93 is terrific and is highly recommended, though it's the kind of match that almost defies a traditional star rating since it's so angle-heavy. Lawler vs. Dreamer from the second ECW PPV is okay, though some like Loss like it way more than I do.

[Phil Schneider]

This is my favorite WWF Lawler match

 

Jerry Lawler v. Goldust WWF 5/26/97-EPIC

We start with Lawler spitting hot fire in a backstage promo. He calls Goldust a flaming fag, Marlena the biggest Goldigger in GA and says they should have named their daughter Target because everyone in Atlanta took a shot. Goldust jumps him at the bell and they go toe to to at a breakneck pace. The rights and lefts are as good as you would hope a Dustin v. Lawler punch exchange would be. The show was in Evansville IN, so Lawler get a huge crowd reaction even as a heel, including a Lawler chant as he was choking Dustin. Lawler gets bumped to the floor and bitch slapped by Marlena but he steals a quick pin with his feet on the ropes. Post match was great too, with them brawling to the stage and Lawler taking a huge rolling bump all the way down the ramp. Total bell to bell brawl in which every moment was great. Really makes me want to seek out more Goldust matches here, as this was brawling at the level of his best stuff with Buck and Funk.

 

I also really liked his MSG debut against Tito

 

Jerry Lawler v. Tito Santana WWF 3/21/93-GREAT

Lawler debuts in MSG and immediately gets the crowd riled up hardcore. He starts shit talking the rotten apple, and offers to let Sanatana out of the match if he kisses his feet. First part of the match has Tito bumping Lawler around, while Jerry cheap shots stalls and talks shit to the crowd. It is really great to see an old pro break out some classic tricks on a new stage and get folks screaming for his scalp like that. The match really kicks into gear when Lawler gets the advantage and hits his beautiful piledriver. He then grabs the house mike and tries to start a "wetback" chant, I am surprised a young Fat Joe didn't jump the rail and stab him in the ribs. He goes to crotch Tito on the ringpost, but Santana pulls his legs back causing Lawler to smash his face into the ringpost as only Jerry can. The have a heated bit of brawling before Santana tries a sunset flip, which Lawler sits down and grab the ropes for the pin. They then keep brawling and end up spilling into the crowd exchanging shots among the fans. The last five minutes of this were off the charts, and if that section was longer I could see rating this Epic. The first was fun mid card MSG, the second part was main event MSC.

[Eegah]

That Goldust match is great from opening segment to end. A nice, fun sprint.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

 

WingedEagle, I am guessing you did not participate in the DVDVR Memphis voting. Not one person who watched that set, to the best of my memory, came away talking about the underwhelming matches.

 

If you watched the Lawler-Dundee Loser Leave Town matches, the Idol cage match, the Savage series, the Bock series, the Funk series, the Kerry series, Hennig series, Dutch series, Tommy Rich matches, the Crusher Blackwell match, the Bundy match, the Lawler/Idol vs. Freebirds matches, the Bam Bam match, the Martel match, the Moondgos brawls, the different feuds when Lawler & Dundee teamed, the Lawler/Jarrett team, the Lawler-Dreamer match from 1997 or 2010, the Goldust match, the Mercury singles match, the Corino singles match and still came away underwhelmed? At this point, we simply do not like the same type of wrestling.

Maybe not. I liked almost all of those matches, and some of them a lot. Particularly the Dory, Terry No DQ, Dutch barbed wire, Dundee LLT and Idol/Freebirds bouts. I didn't particularly care for the Savage stuff much. I may have also not framed things in the proper context -- I found it all underwhelming as far as making a case for Lawler as an all timer, not as a worker who I enjoy and can appreciate.

I have exactly the same feeling and it is NOT that these matches aren't great, it is that they cap out at about ****3/4.

 

This is basically the debate I had with Will on part 5 of the Flair show.

 

like Jumbo vs. Tenryu, Flair vs. Steamboat, Kawada vs. Misawa, these are ***** you know.

 

A lot of the Lawler greatest hits including the Dundee stuff that I've just watched, for one reason or another, just don't quite hit that level.

 

Lawler's case isn't made by a big string of 5-star classics, it's made be a big string of matches in the 4-4.5 range.

 

In my Biglav terms, his case is really made in the V category, not in the G category.

 

And I'm basically saying he doesn't have enough goods in the G category to be a true contender.

 

And after reading around, it doesn't actually seem like MANY people have those Dundee matches at 5-stars (in fact I haven't seen anyone actually drop that rating on any of them so ...)

 

This does seem a bit reductive and I don't want to sound like I'm trying to squash what is one of the all-time great workers and a lynchpin of one of the all-time great territories.

 

I do like what he does and think he's excellent. He will finish in my top 20 and when all is said and done probably around 11 or 12.

 

Just saying why I don't see him as a serious #1 pick.

 

I do hope this doesn't make Will angry. But I just call it like I see it.

[Grimmas]

 

 

WingedEagle, I am guessing you did not participate in the DVDVR Memphis voting. Not one person who watched that set, to the best of my memory, came away talking about the underwhelming matches.

 

If you watched the Lawler-Dundee Loser Leave Town matches, the Idol cage match, the Savage series, the Bock series, the Funk series, the Kerry series, Hennig series, Dutch series, Tommy Rich matches, the Crusher Blackwell match, the Bundy match, the Lawler/Idol vs. Freebirds matches, the Bam Bam match, the Martel match, the Moondgos brawls, the different feuds when Lawler & Dundee teamed, the Lawler/Jarrett team, the Lawler-Dreamer match from 1997 or 2010, the Goldust match, the Mercury singles match, the Corino singles match and still came away underwhelmed? At this point, we simply do not like the same type of wrestling.

Maybe not. I liked almost all of those matches, and some of them a lot. Particularly the Dory, Terry No DQ, Dutch barbed wire, Dundee LLT and Idol/Freebirds bouts. I didn't particularly care for the Savage stuff much. I may have also not framed things in the proper context -- I found it all underwhelming as far as making a case for Lawler as an all timer, not as a worker who I enjoy and can appreciate.

 

And after reading around, it doesn't actually seem like MANY people have those Dundee matches at 5-stars (in fact I haven't seen anyone actually drop that rating on any of them so ...)

 

 

 

***** in my book:

Jerry Lawler vs Bill Dundee 1985-12-30 (#4 match all-time)

Jerry Lawler vs Bill Dundee 1983-06-06 (#24 match all-time)

[JerryvonKramer]

Having a look through the ***** matches thread, I also saw tim had 83 match at 5 (4.5 for me) and Chad also had that 83 match there. Weakest of the series for me, but there we are.

 

So fair enough, I don't quite see them on that level, although in the case of the 85 one clipping is partly to blame.

 

The general point still stands really. Lawler doesn't have a vast reservoir of 5-star matches to draw from. And G is not his strong suit in the case.

 

I am done debating at this stage in the game. I am just dropping conclusions. I think my final ratings on Lawler are pretty fair.

[Grimmas]

Having a look through the ***** matches thread, I also saw tim had 83 match at 5 (4.5 for me) and Chad also had that 83 match there. Weakest of the series for me, but there we are.

 

So fair enough, I don't quite see them on that level, although in the case of the 85 one clipping is partly to blame.

 

The general point still stands really. Lawler doesn't have a vast reservoir of 5-star matches to draw from. And G is not his strong suit in the case.

 

I am done debating at this stage in the game. I am just dropping conclusions. I think my final ratings on Lawler are pretty fair.

It's interesting that G is by far the least important category in my view.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

Having a look through the ***** matches thread, I also saw tim had 83 match at 5 (4.5 for me) and Chad also had that 83 match there. Weakest of the series for me, but there we are.

 

So fair enough, I don't quite see them on that level, although in the case of the 85 one clipping is partly to blame.

 

The general point still stands really. Lawler doesn't have a vast reservoir of 5-star matches to draw from. And G is not his strong suit in the case.

 

I am done debating at this stage in the game. I am just dropping conclusions. I think my final ratings on Lawler are pretty fair.

It's interesting that G is by far the least important category in my view.

 

Right and remember I want all six equally.

 

Someone who leads on the G rating, like Chad, is always gonna have the AJ guys top. And hence he objects to the A rating all the time. If you go and read Buddy Rose's thread, most of the arguments for him lead on the A rating. Buddy Rose's case is kinda similar to Lawler's in a way, in that he's strong in A and V. What interests me is that I've seen the same people lean on different things for different guys depending on the argument. It doesn't surprise me, that's what people do, they come to conclusions and then reach for reasons post-hoc. This whole process has been an interesting and sometimes stunning demonstration of that.

[goodhelmet]

You're full of shit.

[goodhelmet]

Quick disclaimer...

 

before anyone gets upset, I say that Parv is full of shit in a loving manner. Despite the fact I genuinely think he is a hypocrite and full of shit, there is no malice intended. I just don't take him seriously.

[JerryvonKramer]

What have I been a hypocrite about?

[Cap]

I don’t really have anything new here. I am sort of just getting familiar with Lawler from his pre wwe stuff. I had seen matches here and there, but got the Memphis set and scratched the surface with it recently. I am saving the Dundee matches, but I watched the Funk no DQ and empty arena matches, as well as the little impromptu title match with Flair and a few other random matches here and there. I came away really liking Lawler, but I am just not sure how much. His timing is what stood out the most to me. I think its been touched on a number of times, but he just knew exactly when to do things (sell a big bump, start a comeback, lay in his punches. I am on the fence about where I see him on a list though. If I were to submit he would probably be top 25 right now with some definite potential to move up. I feel like he would be a guy I would have to do a lot of 1v1 comparisons with other top guys to figure out exactly where he fit on my list.

 

The biggest downside is the lack of diverse offense. I am a guy who likes pretty minimalist brawls too. I don’t want a spot fest, but with Lawler it does sort of stand out a little more to me. I am holding off on watching more until I can dedicate some time to watching Memphis for a few days and get more immersed in the psychology. Maybe it wont stick out quite as much. Hell it might even turn into a positive.

 

There is just a lot for me to still watch, but as someone just really diving into a lot of great wrestling right now and really getting into the 80s stuff in some detail I remain a little conflicted on just how great he is in my mind.

 

If this were a list of smartest wrestlers or best wrestling minds Lawler might be the man to beat for me.

[Johnny Sorrow]

I'm loving this idea that there's things like "half stars I just can't give" . 😆 Fucking made up silliness.

[WingedEagle]

I'm loving this idea that there's things like "half stars I just can't give" . Fucking made up silliness.

 

Not every match can be Monday Night Raw. On Hulu.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think the accusation of hypocrisy comes from me using DVDR rankings when talking about Flair or Ted. But I've only done that to demonstrate variety not great matches.

 

And in the case of Ted just to ask why he's the only DVDR 80 set stud who people are saying they won't rank, when he probably should.

 

There is no hypocrisy at all, I give Lawler credit for his abilities as a worker including his punching and selling, his longevity, his versatility, his huge variety of memorable matches. It adds up to a strong GWE case but not a #1 case in my view, against the criteria I've set. If I'd sat down and watched the Memphis set and seen a long string of GREAT ***** matches to rival Misawa's or Jumbo's, I'd be singing a different tune. I didn't see that, I saw a lot of very solid work, great angles and very memorable matches.