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#21 JerryvonKramer

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 04:23 AM

Loss, you'll notice I didn't mention money or drawing in my post. That's not coming into my criteria at all. Even if the qualities and abilities I'm talking about led to success and stardom.

Just think it's important to point out that I'm (and I guess Kelly too) are not saying "Hogan is the biggest draw ever therefore you must include him", that isn't the argument.

#22 Loss

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 07:35 AM

But if Hogan wasn't the biggest draw ever - let's say he was a star on the level of Lex Luger - would you still think all of those things were true?



#23 JerryvonKramer

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 08:17 AM

I don't see why not. Luger will likely rank above Hogan for me when is all said and done. But let's even pretend that he wouldn't ... I'm ultimately talking about crowd control and "aura". I can think of guys who were really really over, who time and again didn't know what to do with that overness -- Sting would spring to mind. Sid. Warrior. Make your own list. Hogan knew what to do.

Like I said, I think it's far too easy to take the things Hogan does well for granted and assume that they are easy. They aren't easy. Many subsequent attempts to manufacture "big match moments" like those Hogan gives us have fallen flat on their face. Very very few wrestlers have that certain quality Hogan does in making the event seem like the biggest thing ever. It's why I quoted you and Childs talking about Choshu.

You can point to marketing and booking, but he does it in AWA against Bockwinkel, he does it in Japan in 1981 and 1991, he does it at Wrestlemania 18 when he wasn't booked in the main event, and he did it in WCW after the heel turn.

Of course, there's a certain amount of chicken and egg because you can't completely take context away: he's only in the spots he is because he was a star. But as I mentioned you can point to other guys who have been put in similar spots and floundered.

He knew his audience, he knew how to work them, he knew his limitations and how to work around them, he understood ring psychology.

Many of these sorts of arguments will be made for a guy like Jerry Lawler. People will argue on this forum -- and with a straight face -- that Lawler pulling down the strap is better than Hogan hulking up. But think about it and the psychology is more or less identical, and I think Hogan's timing was almost as good as Lawler's. I also think that he took a good beating when needed. It would be interesting for one of the people who are really really high on Lawler to put forward a point-by-point argument demonstrating why they think Lawler was a better babyface than Hogan, beyond his ability to throw a working punch.

I do understand why you hold some of the things you do against Hogan, Charles, but to extend Kelly's analogy, that would be a bit like blaming Elvis for X Factor.

#24 goodhelmet

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 10:32 AM

It would be interesting for one of the people who are really really high on Lawler to put forward a point-by-point argument demonstrating why they think Lawler was a better babyface than Hogan, beyond his ability to throw a working punch.

 

 

I actually have bullet points on this that I couldn't post on the old board because of the formatting problems. Still including the quality of the punches. 



#25 ohtani's jacket

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 04:59 PM

Lawler was an average joe who succeeded at pro-wrestling through grit and determination. Hogan was presented as a genetic freak and outstanding athlete. There was a world of difference in their appeal to the common man. 



#26 Parties

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 09:56 PM

 

Choshu brought that almost unparalleled ability to make everything feel important. Wherever he was seemed to be the eye of the storm


his infectious energy and charisma turned everything to gold for a while.


Hogan's ability to electrify a promotion and make things feel more important should count for something. He did it not once, but THREE times in his career for three different companies.

 

 

Assuming the three cases in question were WWF, WCW, and TNA: Hogan in all three cases was likewise instrumental in creating the worst periods in the histories of all three companies. Moreso than any other wrestler. You can't celebrate Hogan's positive influence on box office (clear, valid) or his "big match" capacity without acknowledging that he was true poison (and IMO equally poisonous) at three pivotal points (end of WCW, '02-'03 WWE, and post-2010 TNA) as well. All three groups were badly burned by him, in ways so damaging that each company has since failed to recover. Anyone reading the news lately knows that Hogan is his own worst enemy.

 

And while this sound unfair to some, I blame him (with Vince of course) for a lot of the current WWE overemphasis on legends getting that “one last run” a dozen times over, at the expense of the last 12-15 years worth of young talent. So much of Vince's conservative booking and obsession with the past via old grudges originates in Hogan's big runs after the Rock match at WM18. But to be fair, perhaps that's simply Vince chasing Hogan's aura and failing to catch it.

 

As a worker, he absolutely does not make it. For all the matches he made “bigger”, what about the endless matches he made smaller due to his ego and rapidly deteriorating abilities post-1990 or so? Is seven good years ('83-90) a top 100 length of time, even when compared solely to direct peers like Bret, Valentine, Andre, Slaughter, Savage? He has some very good matches and very good performances. But people sought out and glorified those performances (vs. Hansen, Fujinami, Schultz, Savage, Backlund, etc.). Are there ten desert island Hogan matches? Is there even one, on the spectrum of everything else? I recently said that Earthquake at Summerslam '90 is the best case I've recently seen in which you could argue Hogan looked great and (with the help of four other awesome guys) carried a bad worker to a solid match. But I don't think Hogan has many maestro carryjob outings on his resume.



#27 goodhelmet

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 01:37 AM

I don't think the third company was TNA. I think the 1st company was the AWA. 



#28 Grimmas

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 08:58 AM

As we move closer to the date I am pretty confident Hogan will make the list. One of the greatest sellers of all time. He was great in big moments and his charisma was so much it made a lot of lesser matches feel special.

 

The really good matches and performances do exist, although not the 5 star classics.

 

Hogan is a guy I will watch his stuff (during a lot of periods) and that is the most important to me on this list. Who do I want to watch the most.



#29 GOTNW

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 09:35 AM

I somewhat like Hogan but there's definitely 100 wrestlers I like more. His Japan work is a highlight for me. He was much bigger than anyone he worked against and when he was paired with opponents who knew how to take advantage of that (Fujinami, Tenryu) it created a really special environment in which I bought the simplest maneuvers as convincing nearfalls.

#30 Grimmas

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 10:36 AM

I somewhat like Hogan but there's definitely 100 wrestlers I like more. His Japan work is a highlight for me. He was much bigger than anyone he worked against and when he was paired with opponents who knew how to take advantage of that (Fujinami, Tenryu) it created a really special environment in which I bought the simplest maneuvers as convincing nearfalls.

I love his babyface run from the AWA till sometime in 87.



#31 Yo-Yo's Roomie

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 11:40 AM

I can't buy into the idea of Hogan as a great seller, let alone one of the greatest of all time. His selling was far too cartoonish, and goofy, and over-the-top. Not to mention not very logical. I just watched some of his stuff with Hennig, and he sells the neck-snap by jumping up to his feet and holding his throat like he's just been choked. It looked really ridiculous.



#32 Grimmas

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 11:51 AM

I can't buy into the idea of Hogan as a great seller, let alone one of the greatest of all time. His selling was far too cartoonish, and goofy, and over-the-top. Not to mention not very logical. I just watched some of his stuff with Hennig, and he sells the neck-snap by jumping up to his feet and holding his throat like he's just been choked. It looked really ridiculous.

Post 87 Hogan is past his peak, so not what I am looking at for making a case for Hogan.



#33 Yo-Yo's Roomie

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 12:28 PM

Putting that one example aside, I just don't see a case for Hogan as a great seller. I like Hogan a fair bit, but if I was going to make a case for him for a list like this it would be based on charisma, and timing of his comebacks, and not on selling.



#34 Grimmas

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 12:37 PM

Putting that one example aside, I just don't see a case for Hogan as a great seller. I like Hogan a fair bit, but if I was going to make a case for him for a list like this it would be based on charisma, and timing of his comebacks, and not on selling.

I find he gains a lot of sympathy during the face in peril sections of matches. Most of his matches are on him getting his ass beat until the come back and those matches are engaging. Isn't that what selling is, making getting beat down look good and compelling?



#35 Yo-Yo's Roomie

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 01:38 PM

I would say there should be an element of believability to it, especially for a babyface who bases most of his matches on a long heel control section leading to a big comeback. I don't really see any authenticity in Hogan's selling, and that makes it hard for me to invest emotionally in his struggle. I would argue that he isn't really gaining sympathy through his selling, rather that he has the crowd's sympathy because he's Hulk Hogan.

 

I guess I'd simplify it by saying that selling to me is acting, and Hogan is a terrible actor.



#36 benjaminkicks

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 01:56 PM

I think Hogan sucks in pretty much every way besides drawing, which I'm not taking account in this list.

No way he makes my list.

#37 El-P

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 02:04 PM

Hulk's selling was goofy as shit, and the way he registered the shots or bumped was not exactly state of the art selling either.

 

I would argue that he isn't really gaining sympathy through his selling, rather that he has the crowd's sympathy because he's Hulk Hogan.

 

Pretty much. Hogan didn't become a superstar because of the way he sold. He became a superstar because of his charisma, presence, body, promos and over the top act and maneurisms. And because he never lost. As opposed to say, Ricky Morton, or Ricky Steamboat. So of course, when he sold he got the crowd in his hands. But only because he was already Hulk Hogan. The crowd supported him because they wanted him to hulk up. And hulking up is pretty much the worst concept of selling, ever. It's a thousand times worst than any delayed selling if we're being honest. Not to mention hulking up after a finisher, which was Hogan's idea of "compelling". Yeah, it drew shitloads of money, for a while. It still sucked.



#38 ...TG

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 03:20 PM

 

 

Choshu brought that almost unparalleled ability to make everything feel important. Wherever he was seemed to be the eye of the storm


his infectious energy and charisma turned everything to gold for a while.


Hogan's ability to electrify a promotion and make things feel more important should count for something. He did it not once, but THREE times in his career for three different companies.

 

 

Assuming the three cases in question were WWF, WCW, and TNA: Hogan in all three cases was likewise instrumental in creating the worst periods in the histories of all three companies. Moreso than any other wrestler. You can't celebrate Hogan's positive influence on box office (clear, valid) or his "big match" capacity without acknowledging that he was true poison (and IMO equally poisonous) at three pivotal points (end of WCW, '02-'03 WWE, and post-2010 TNA) as well. All three groups were badly burned by him, in ways so damaging that each company has since failed to recover. Anyone reading the news lately knows that Hogan is his own worst enemy.

This is probably off-topic, but how was he "true poison" in '02-'03 WWE? (That's an honest question, as that was during my wrestling dark period and I really don't know the specifics.)



#39 Ricky Jackson

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 03:37 PM

Yeah, I don't get that one either.

#40 JerryvonKramer

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 03:42 PM

I did mean AWA, obviously.

I'm looking forward to watching some freshly turned NWO Hogan again at some point to assess his character work. Hogan will likely make my list somewhere.




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