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#1 Grimmas

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 08:16 AM

Discuss here.



#2 Graham Crackers

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 01:19 PM

The only flaw I see in Satanico is that we don't have enough footage of his peak. Otherwise I can't say I've ever seen him have a bad match. In fact, the footage we do have is so excellent that I think he's a dark horse number 1 pick for me.

 

Satanico vs Gran Cochisse should be required viewing for every wrestling fan. I wrote this for the 80s lucha set:

 

 

From the first lock-up you can tell this is going to be different from all of the other grappling so far on this set. Gran Cochisse has to work hard to find an escape from that first waistlock and from there they move through their first series of reversals. There is a graceful athleticism to great lucha matwork and that's present in this one but grace doesn't mean cooperative. These first exchanges happen at the perfect speed for viewers like us to see how these wrestlers jockey for position before finding the counter they need to turn the tide in their favor. The same difficulty that Gran Cochisse has in escaping that first waistlock is mirrored by the difficulty Satanico faces in getting his opponent off of his back. Like any good fight, neither man is going to give up their position that easily. Gran Cochisse is thrown out of the ring with a huge snapmare but Satanico doesn't pounce on him or dive. This is a title match and it's only the first fall. He waits for him to come back so he can submit him in the middle of the ring. The second fall is all about teasing escalation. They both try to pick apart their opponent's shoulder and things continue to heat up before they find themselves staring each other down on all fours. Gran Cochisse takes the second fall with a quick counter though it's not as decisive as Satanico's first fall victory. When the third fall starts Satanico suggests a handshake and at first Gran Cochisse is skeptical. Why wouldn't he be with a rudo as tricky as Satanico making the offer? Shockingly, it's Gran Cochisse who takes advantage by quickly going around and hitting Satanico with a huge knee to the kidneys and after that's followed up by a series of brutal spinebusters Satanico is not looking so hot. This leads to a series of spectacular near submissions. Each time Gran Cochisse puts Satanico into a hold that could end the whole thing Satanico barely finds a counter but after a while the damage starts to show and Satanico resorts to just desperately crawling away. The way the crowd embraces Satanico as an underdog in the final fall of this match is similar to the story of another one of my favorite lucha title matches, the Santo vs Espanto match from1992. Satanico's performance in this match is simply one of the best performances I've ever seen. The grappling and the selling are incredible but on top of that he manages to go from subtle heeling to underdog babyface within the course of one match.



#3 Childs

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 03:24 PM

As OJ knows, I was a skeptic on Satanico because of the lack of footage. But he was so fucking good in 1984 and 1990 and obviously still at that level when he popped up in between that I've dropped any reservations. Vicious brawler, top-notch mat worker, projected his character in his work as well as anyone I've ever seen, great in both singles and trios, remained effective as an older worker. He will make my top 20, and if we had all of his big matches from over the years, I suspect he'd contend for my top 5.



#4 tim

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 03:29 PM

Footage is the only issue with Satanico, and considering that given that limitation he has so many great matches, I don't consider it much of a negative at all.  Truly brilliant worker, the kind of guy who will be doing awesome, interesting stuff in just about every single match.  Can go on the mat, can brawl, tons of charisma, tons of personality.  He was the real star of the 80s lucha set to me.  Tons of great matches and in those matches his individual performances made him look like the absolute best in the world.  Top 10 lock.



#5 goodhelmet

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 07:57 PM

One of my Top 5 luchadors. 



#6 ohtani's jacket

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Posted 28 September 2014 - 08:17 AM

I gushed all over Satanico in my latest blog entry. If I were making my list tonight he would be number one. 



#7 elliott

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Posted 28 September 2014 - 10:11 PM

What's the earliest Satanico match out there? He was great the first time he shows up on the Lucha 80s set. Is there anything from before the 9/30/83 six man tag? OJ, what are your thoughts on his run in the early 2000s? I remember really liking that run at the time and want to revist it. I need to fill some gaps from the 90s as well as looking at the early 2000s again, but he is definitely someone I'm strongly considering for #1 based on the 80s set and the matches I've seen from the 90s. If his early 2000s holds up at all it might push him over the top.



#8 ohtani's jacket

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Posted 28 September 2014 - 10:14 PM

They didn't start airing EMLL on television until 1983 so there's nothing from before then. I haven't watched his 00s work or any of his recent stuff against Dandy. Please pass along anything good you discover.



#9 elliott

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 01:09 AM

The first time I saw Satanico I think was the match from the March 2001 PPV with Shocker and Black Warrior vs Ultimo Guerrero, Rey Bucanero and Tarzan Boy. Around this time I started getting almost all of the weekly CMLL and was heavily invested in the Infernales vs Infernales feud and Satanico was my absolute favorite wrestler in 2001. That was also the feud that helped push him into the WON HOF after being overlooked.  Very little of it appears to be on youtube unfortunately.

 

Satanico and Averno vs Ultimo Guerrero and Rey Bucanero

Spoiler

 

Satanico, Shocker, and Brazo de Plata vs Ultimo Guerrero, Rey Bucanero, and Mephisto

Spoiler

 

 

Infierno en el Ring 2001

Satanico, Averno, Mephisto vs Ultimo Guerrero, Rey Bucanero, Tarzan Boy, and Mascara Magica

part 1

part 2

part 3

I remember talking about this back in 2001 as a MOTYC with the best story telling of any match all year. Basically an escape the cage elimination match with the last two guys in the ring putting their mask/hair on the line. The VQ on the youtube videos here would be comprable to my old VHS tape of the show :)

 

Ok, I wasn't going to watch the Infierno en El Ring match tonight and then I did...

For some reason I always loved the intros to this match. This starts with the Nuevos Infernales all in the ring and getting Satanico inside by himself. Satanico is double and triple teamed as Averno and Mephisto are kept out of the cage. Eventually they get into the match to an enormous pop and the Stanico Infernales take control. Eventually the numbers game catches up and the Nuevos Infernales take back over. There is a lot happening in this match with 7 guys all brawling inside a cage at the same time. So its easy to hide in a match like this. But Satanico is the focal point of his team and manages to stand out with sympathetic selling and firey ass kicking come backs. I love the spot where he's just relentlessly headbutting Tarzan Boy's arm when they're tangled up on the ground. 

So Tarzan Boy escapes first and as he's doing it his teammates are trying to grab him and pull him back in to stop him from escaping. But Tarzan Boy is like "Hahaha, fuck you guys. I'm not getting my head shaved. Good luck with the 3 on 3." Meanwhile the crowd is going nuts.

The match appears to be a little clipped actually as we miss Bucanero escaping the cage.

Averno gets his mask tied to the rope and gets beat down by Magica and Guerrero before they both attempt to escape the cage. So Satanico has to try and stop both of them from escaping on either side of the cage while also trying to free Averno. Eventually Averno gets free but the damage has been done. Guerrero escapes the cage which gives Satanico an opening to do the same. But as Satanico beings to climb he sees Averno getting his ass handed to him by Mascara Magica. Satanico is waving for Averno to come on while still climbing. Eventually Magica goes to escape and Averno is too beaten down to do anything. So Satanico jumps down off the cage, runs across the ring to stop Magica and save Averno's mask. Satanico helps hold off Magica while Averno makes his escape.

A lot more clipping during the Satanico vs Magica finish unfortunately. I don't remember this being a 40 minute long match so I don't think we lost a ton of the match. The finish starts with Magica throwing everything he can at Satanico. Big moves, cheating putting his feet on the ropes, etc but can't put away Satanico. Eventually Satanico makes his big comeback and looks really good. Crowd goes fucking beserk at the finish.

 

I liked the match a lot. Like I said, there was a lot going on in the match with 7 guys in the ring to start it would be really easy to hide. But focusing on Satanico's performance, I think he looked very good and was really the key to keeping the crowd going nuts. I thought the booking and match layout was pretty tremendous in this.

 



#10 elliott

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 01:25 PM

I watched Satanico vs Tarzan Boy Hair vs Hair from 2/25/2000.

 

Spoiler
Part 1

Spoiler
Part 2

 

I thought it was good, maybe even very good at times, but its definitely not a classic Satanico singles match. I don't remember a lot about Tarzan Boy but he seems like a really limited worker. Most of his spots are based around athleticism and being able to jump really high on dropkicks and clotheslines. Satanico brings the structure to the match and looks really good eating all of Tarzan Boy's big spots. This is too short to be a great Hair vs Hair match and definitely lacks the blood and brutality of a lot of the really great hair/mask matches. But I think its definitely worth watching to see what 50 year old Satanico is bringing to the table in a big singles match against a younger more limited worker.

 

I also watched Satanico vs El Dandy from 2/9/14

 

 

This was a pretty impressive match considering the combined age of 115. They keep it on the mat mostly and didn't try to do anything too crazy. Although El Dandy does take a sick upside down bump into the stands. Satanico does some fun "Here take a free shot, look my hands are behind my back" spots. I gotta be honest I watched this totally expecting to be depressed and full of regret but this is very much worth watching in the context of "Holy crap Satanico is 64 years old!"



#11 shoe

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 07:14 PM

Let me add to the love of Satanico. The guy is so good. He has one of the great faces of all of wrestling.

#12 ohtani's jacket

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 08:38 PM

Keep it coming, elliot. Taking a look at Satanico's 2001 is enticing. If there were more of it on YouTube I would hand it to Matt as a project.



#13 Matt D

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 08:40 PM

I'd love that project. Someone post stuff.

 

I reviewed a couple.

 

Satanico and Averno vs GdI

 

and 

 

Nuevos Infernales vs Villanos IV and V and IWRG Niebla

 

I want to check out some of the other posted matches at some point. I loved how he was directing traffic in the latter match.



#14 elliott

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 09:28 PM

I watched the Satanico and Averno vs Ultimo Guerrero and Rey Bucanero match I posted earlier. It was a short, all out brawl. I don't think it was great, but its the sort of match that would look really good in the context of a blood feud. Satanico is excellent at selling a beating and garnering sympathy while still being a tough guy going toe to toe with the young guns. Satanico does the spot where he lays on top of Averno to protect him from getting stomped on by the heels which i really like considering how the Infierno en el Ring match turns out. Satanico was again the star of this match with his selling and hope spots. Another good match and good performance. 

 

I also watched Satanico, Averno and Mephisto vs Negro Casas, Atlantis and Blue Demon Jr from 2001

 

Spoiler

 

This is another short match that is just a backdrop for the Infernales vs Infernales feud. Casas starts for his team and you're thinking "let Satanico start for this team!" but alas it was Averno. This was a more straightforward match in the first fall. Satanico and Atlantis pair off and have the longest uninterrupted stretch of the match. Really nice chain wrestling from the two vets. The technicos take the first fall and so Satanico's team decide to take some liberties double and triple teaming the technicos in the 2nd fall. Atlantis actually makes a really nice firey comeback but before you know it you see Tarzan Boy, Ultimo Guerrero and Rey Bucanerno out there brawling with Satanico, Averno and Mephisto which allows the technicos to take two straight falls. As the Nuevo Infernales continue to beat up on the Infernales, Atlantis is getting ready to leave but Negro Casas and Blue Demon (but mostly Casas) stop him like "dude, there's a fight right there lets go kick some rudo ass!" So they join the fight against the Nuevos Infernales. Again too short to be a great match and was really more of an angle than a match. But worth watching in the context of the feud and if nothing else the Satanico vs Atlantis match up was still great.

 

I also watched Satanico, Atlantis, and Shocker vs Ultimo Guerrero, Rey Bucanero and Tarzan Boy from 2002

 

Spoiler

 

This was an all out workrate sprint. This was more about Shocker than Satanico and Atlantis and Shocker looked really fucking good. Another short match that is worth watching. Like I  said, its more about Shocker, so I wouldn't point to this as something for Satanico's case but I watched it because he was in it. He does have one really good segment where he's bumping all over the place and hitting arm drags and flying headscissors. He also hits a crazy top rope to the floor dive.

 

I also watched Satanico, Shocker, and Black Warrior vs Ultimo Guerrero, Bestia Salvaje, and Emilio Charles Jr no date but It looks to be around this same 2001-2002 time period.

 

 

This is probably my least favorite of the matches I've watched so far. It has some good moments with Satanico and Ultimo Guerrero brawling around and a pretty cool spot where Shocker drags Salvaje over to the first row, sticks his leg inbetween one of the folding chairs and starts kicking it over and over again. Overall this was a pretty aimless brawl. I wanted to link it and mention it a little just to kinda show that I don't love all of these matches even if it might seem that way :)

I will note that there's a fun moment in the 3rd fall where Satanico "drops the strap" Jerry Lawler style and goes toe to toe with Guerrero.



#15 elliott

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 11:02 PM

I also watched Satanico, Pirata Morgan, Pierroth Jr and Dick Togo vs Negro Casas, Ultimo Guerrero, Ricky Marvin and Super Parka from CMLL Japan 11/25/99 tonight

 

Spoiler

 

This was kinda disappointing when you look at that list of names. Very exhibition-y feel to it. Not a ton of crowd heat except for the big spots and the finish seemed to come out of nowhere with the crowd barely reacting. But there was some good stuff in this. Satanico and Casas pair off and bring some really nice chain wrestling. Dick Togo is great at standing out 6, 8, and 10 man tags and he looks very good here. Ricky Marvin takes some crazy bumps and hits some really spectacular high flying moves. Pirata Morgan does a little bit of everything and works as a base for Marvin's spots. Pierroth Jr hits a lot of power moves but otherwise stays out of the way which is good. Super Parka brings some comedy and big spots. Ultimo Guerrero was in the match :) Pirata Morgan probably looked the best overall of anyone in this because he brings a ton to the table in this but the Satanico/Casas chain wrestling matchup is very good.  I would also like to add that there is a fucking awesome spot where Marvin dives over the top and is caught by Satanico, Pirata and Togo. Then Negro Casas tries a plancha but they catch him too. Finally Ultimo Guerrero dives onto the pile from the top rope finally taking out Satanico, Pirata and Togo. I've never seen that spot before and it was a really nice change of pace from the "dive, wait for everyone to get up, another dive, wait for everyone to get up, another dive" formula these matches often take. I don't know whose idea it was to say "fuck it lets just catch and hold the first two" but kudos to them for a really entertaining spot.



#16 elliott

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 02:22 AM

Satanico vs Damian 666 Hair vs Hair no date on the video but I looked at luchawiki and I'm guessing this is the 2/25/2010 match

Spoiler

 

I didn't look up the date before I watched this. So I didn't realize till after the fact that Satanico was 60 in this. He still bumps and moves around the ring well for a guy that old. This isn't a particularly memorable or even good match. Its a one fall, shortish hair match. You would think a hair match with Satanico and Damian 666 would be a bloodbath. But this was not that. This is worth watching because it is a Satanico match. But realistically, it is a 60 year old vs a past his prime dude who was limited to begin with.

 

Satanico, Negro Navarro, and Black Terry vs Blue Panther, Solar, and Super Astro 11/17/2013

 

 

This on the other hand is fucking awesome. Satanico doesn't look as good as Navarro, Terry or Panther in this, but he holds his own in spite of being old as fuck. This is just 5 awesome vets ripping it up on the mat and Super Astro looking like a goddamn idiot trying to hit all the same spots he was doing in 1984. Definitely a match worth watching not because Satanico is in it, but because it is a good match.



#17 elliott

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 03:07 PM

Today so far I've watched Satanico and Solar vs Blue Panther and Negro Navarro from 3/5/11.

Spoiler

 

I thought this was a very good and a very fun match. Satanico looks really good against both Panther and Navarro. 4 dudes taking it to the mat and it rocks. Solar really impressed me in this match and I should go over to the Navarro thread and get some recommendations. This had more of an exhibition feel to it than anything. Just a ton of chain wrestling and exchanging of holds. But these guys are really great at it. This is over in 2 straight falls but it does get some time. Again for a 61 year old guy, Satanico looks really good, but I think I'm going to start looking at stuff from the 90s. If anyone comes across anything else that looks interesting from 2000 and on Satanico, please pass it along as I'd be happy to watch it. Some of this stuff is a lot of fun and it is interesting to see him work as a 60+year old, but I want to check out his work from his 40s.



#18 elliott

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 07:36 PM

Watched Satanico/La Parka/Psicosis vs Hijo del Santo/Konnan/Angel Azteca from 2/11/94 AAA as the beginning of my trek through random 90s Satanico matches

 

Spoiler

 

Starts off with pretty aimless brawling in the first fall. A lot of stuff but there's not really any focus to it. Satanico does a good job of putting himself in position to look foolish and get the technicos over. Its not Fuerza level stuff but it's solid. At one point the rudo mistakes lead to some infighting between Satanico/Parka/Psicosis. I seem to recall Parka often having issues with tag team partners in AAA. In spite of the aimlessness and infighting, La Parka alreay looks like a really exciting worker. At one point Konnan completely blows a leap frog. What the hell Konnan? He does a fun spot with Psicosis where Konnan is standing near the ropes and Psicosis runs at him and goes for a monkey flip, but Konnan is too strong and he just holds onto Psicosis before dumping him over the top rope. Pretty basic strength spot but well done considering they blew a leap frog 10 seconds before it. There's a little more Satanico/Parka pushing and shoving which leads to the technicos taking them out with enormous dives from Santo. Really exciting little stretch. The 3rd fall was pretty hot with Santo hitting some beautiful spots. I think Satanico looked good in this even if he wasn't really the featured player. La Parka was the focal point of the rudo team. There was some parts I really liked as the match progressed but the first fall brawling felt really aimless. I was really hoping for more Santo vs Satanico action here but we didn't get much of it. Worth watching but not a great match.



#19 ohtani's jacket

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 07:48 PM

Have you seen the Pirata Morgan/Satanico hair match from AAA? It's a real hidden classic. Also check out the trios Matt D recommended to me the other day -- Satanico/La Parka/Psicosis vs. Santo/Azteca/Super Muneco. His AAA work is disappointing, but he was the complete opposite from a Pena style worker so it's not surprising. 



#20 Matt D

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 08:18 PM

The rudo side in that match might be my favorite ever.






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