Manami Toyota

[Grimmas]

Discuss here.

[Timbo Slice]

So pre-WWWA championship Toyota is really good in tag matches and against better workers who can reign her in during singles matches.

 

Post-WWWA championship Toyota is perhaps the most frustrating wrestler ever. I'm not sure how much of her later stuff cancels out earlier stuff, but she's not a shoe-in for my list.

[ohtani's jacket]

The last Toyota match I watched I really enjoyed (Toyota/Yamada from '89.) It seems redundant to point out all her flaws. For me she's no worse a candidate than Liger or Kobashi or Takada or Hase.

[Badlittlekitten]

After watching the Yamada match mentioned above it got me thinking if Toyota is someone that's been overrated long enough to reappear from the hole as underrated. I loved her performance in the 11/91 match with Hokuto, their JGP match was great up until Hokuto fucked her leg, vs Hotta may be the best singles match of her career (unfortunately don't have a date. Featured on the 'legend of goddess' tape), not to mention the well regarded matches with Kong and the interpromotional tags. She's someone i'll think about.

[cheapshot]

A lock for my top 10. My favourite Joshi wrestler ever.

[Loss]

How are people going to rate Toyota?

[MJH]

She's one of the more fascinating candidates really, you have a slam dunk top 10 in various categories (FIP selling, moveset, bumping etc), glaring flaws (well, comeback selling and screaming for some), and as many great matches on her resume as any of the girls (and very few men ahead of her in that regard). Her weaknesses have always been stressed over her strengths, unfortunately (aside from...). Ditto that the no selling comeback will apply to 95% of babyfaces.

 

Definitely outside 20. Best I can give atm is 20-40.

[Childs]

Not going to rate her.

[Timbo Slice]

Bottom of my list, but she could be pushed out.

[Loss]

Bumping this because I think Toyota deserves more debate and discussion. She really is a fascinating candidate. I'd like to take a more in-depth look at what I see as her pros and cons.

 

Let's get her cons out of the way first and tackle what I think is her biggest weakness -- she doesn't have a style that is universally accessible and transcends time. I don't think anyone really does, but I think watching an old match from Terry Funk, the All Japan 4 or Jushin Liger is less likely to be as context-dependent (or even jarring) as something like the Toyota-Yamada series. It's easy to group her in with someone like Tiger Mask because of that because it's also Sayama's biggest weakness. But she is more enduring than that.

 

If you like the current wrestling style in just about any company in the world, I would argue that the wrestling you enjoy owes a certain debt to Manami Toyota. Joshi was always faster-paced than the other wrestling styles, but she upped the ante. We're talking about a wrestler who worked a 60-minute sprint, and I don't mean in the Flair-Steamboat sense that they kept the action moving for an hour or close to it. I mean, she was doing fast-paced, rope-running sequences against Kyoko Inoue for 60 minutes, or at least that was their goal. In the last ten minutes, the match really falls off the rails. And that's not something I'd call a great match at all -- in fact, it rightfully drives a lot of people nuts. But if you value someone who knows who they are and is committed to their working style, it's hard not to at least respect that. If you value ambition, it's hard not to at least respect that. If you value attempts at making a statement, which I do, it's hard not to at least respect that. It's similar to a wrestler who is getting lots of GOAT consideration -- Bryan Danielson -- attempting to do a three-hour match against Homicide on a Ring of Honor show in 2004. I use the sixty-minute draw as an example because I think it captures in one match what Toyota haters despise and what Toyota fans really appreciate. But her case goes far beyond a polarizing match, and besides, that match is really more "feat" than "match".

 

Young Toyota was a solid worker, but a very different worker than the Toyota that usually gets considered in conversations like these. She wasn't a shrieker and her style was much more conventional. She had a spell from 1989-1991 where I think she definitely proved that she could deliver good and even great matches working a more classic style. But they weren't transcendant and definitely weren't enough for a top 100. She was a solid worker -- lots of solid people are solid workers, so what? Not all of them can be in a list of 100.

 

So then comes 1992 and we see her really curate a style that's all hers that made her much more popular and gave us the matches that do make her a worthwhile candidate. I wish she'd stayed a little more true to who she was when she had the plain tights that just said TOYOTA on them, but she made a choice and fully committed herself to it. She had the series teaming with Yamada -- her friend/rival all year -- against JWP's Mayumi Ozaki and Dynamite Kansai, two wrestlers with a similar dynamic in JWP without the friend part. She had the hair match which got such a strong reaction from the people who ran the Korakuen Hall building that they put heat on AJW for going through with Yamada's head-shaving after such a classic match. She had the WON MOTY (and legit ***** match from where I sit) when the two teams rematched at Dreamslam II. She had standout singles matches with a variety of opponents and wrapped up the interpromotional tag series to close out the year.

 

There's a question that this run of her career -- up until 1996 or so -- raises. Do you penalize someone for changing to a more of-the-moment style that paid huge dividends because all of the work doesn't look as good now as it did then? Or do you praise her for understanding how she could differentiate herself and deliver matches that were great in the context of their time? It's at the heart of a lot of GOAT debate and she may be the candidate that evokes that more than any.

 

As the decade wound down, Toyota started getting more conservative again. She wasn't completely back to her late 80s-early 90s self, but she added some veteran touches to her act to make it more enduring. She had the great, atypical match with Kandori. And she had what was one of my favorite matches of the decade against Kyoko Inoue in December of 1999. It wasn't a classic match, and I won't sell it that way. But it's one of wrestling's best examples of feeding many masters -- they gave far more breathing time to their stuff than usual, but they also stayed true to their series by working the types of fast-paced exchanges people expected from their matches. It wasn't their grand finale, but for the 90s it was, and I like to pretend that they never had another match, because it worked about as smart a match between two sprint-style workers who had a famous series could make their final match.

 

I didn't make a list of match recommendations because I think most people know the laundry list and have rejected it for stylistic reasons. I made this post to challenge our notions of what a smart worker is. She's macro-smart, even if she's not micro-smart. She's not going to sell the leg, and she's not going to give consequence to each of her highspots in how she lays out a match. But it's hard to say she isn't a smart worker when she's known all along exactly what she was doing. If you're a "Great Match Theorist", she fits the bill. But if you're someone who prefers to look more holistically at what wrestlers do and why they do it as their career progresses, she's a fascinating candidate.

 

Toyota will be in my top 10.

[Dylan Waco]

Excellent post Loss.

 

I have a couple of follow up questions.

 

1. I am one of the bigger critics of innovation you will find, in the sense that I think it is wildly overrated by certain segments of hardcore fandom. More importantly, I also think innovation is at least as likely to hurt a match as it is to help it. I mention this because I'm curious if you agree with that sentiment, but also to see if you would call Toyota an innovative worker or something else. I notice you come close to that verbiage above, but you never really take the dive and I'm not sure if that was a conscious choice or not. With someone like Otsuka I have started using the term "progressive" which I see as being something different than innovation, though I haven't fully developed what I mean by that (I also see someone like Nishimura, or even modern Jimmy Rave as a "retro-progressive" worker but that is probably beyond the scope of this thread even if I do want to write about it at some point). Do you think the progressive label fits Toyota as well, or would you stay away from a label like that?

 

2. Your paragraph talking about the issue of wrestling for the moment/circumstance interests me because I tend to be of the camp that great wrestling is great wrestling. I do agree that context will enhance the great matches, but generally speaking I think a great match in 1993 should still be a great match in 2015. If it isn't I'm not sure I can really call it a great match. From this perspective the idea of someone being "dated" really hurts them in my eyes because it means they aren't timeless. What you have done is suggest that this was a conscious choice by Toyota. I'm not at all sure that is true, and typically I would argue that I'm not sure it really matters, but it does speak to the discussion of intent/thinking in the ring that Matt D often raises. My question is why do you believe this was a conscious choice by Toyota, rather than her just doing what she knew how/liked to do? How would you make that argument to someone? I am someone who will include at least some Joshi workers on their list, but Toyota isn't even on my radar. I'm not sure your answer to this would put her there, but it might make me willing to go back and watch a few more matches if nothing else.

 

3. You haven't really answered this before that I recall, but I am curious how you feel about my general "all styles aren't created equal" position? In the context of this thread what I am really asking is EVEN IF you believe Toyota created and mastered a style, how much should that matter if you see it as a grossly inferior style? I'm not even making that judgment myself (though early on I tried to watch a fair amount of 90's Joshi and was shocked by how "eh" I found a lot of it to be on rewatch), I'm just curious about how this applies in your thinking when trying to rank a wrestler. Is the success of the style germane? If not why not?

[Loss]

Excellent post Loss.

I have a couple of follow up questions.

1. I am one of the bigger critics of innovation you will find, in the sense that I think it is wildly overrated by certain segments of hardcore fandom. More importantly, I also think innovation is at least as likely to hurt a match as it is to help it. I mention this because I'm curious if you agree with that sentiment, but also to see if you would call Toyota an innovative worker or something else. I notice you come close to that verbiage above, but you never really take the dive and I'm not sure if that was a conscious choice or not. With someone like Otsuka I have started using the term "progressive" which I see as being something different than innovation, though I haven't fully developed what I mean by that (I also see someone like Nishimura, or even modern Jimmy Rave as a "retro-progressive" worker but that is probably beyond the scope of this thread even if I do want to write about it at some point). Do you think the progressive label fits Toyota as well, or would you stay away from a label like that?

It wasn't so much a conscious choice but sure, I'll elaborate. I do think Toyota is an innovative worker, but I don't see that as critical to her case. But I also see her as an influential worker, which I think is more important to her case. Progressive would probably fit her, but I also want to distinguish her from someone like Rob Van Dam, who I guess could also be called innovative and maybe even somewhat influential, albeit for very different reasons. I think the first people to do something usually aren't the best people to do it -- even early Rey isn't really a substantive wrestler -- but they make it possible for others to execute the same vision with the lessons learned. I haven't followed Joshi enough post-90s to know if someone tried to take Toyota's working style and give it breadth, although she herself was hinting at a proper encore as the 1990s came to a close. I don't know how I feel about the labels in general, especially how they apply to Toyota. I think positive influence (that comes from how matches are worked) is something I do factor here, but even then, I think the biggest idea in her favor is that she fully committed herself to a vision where she both reaped the rewards (and had lots of great matches that *do* hold up along the way) and embraced the flaws as the costs of doing business.

 

2. Your paragraph talking about the issue of wrestling for the moment/circumstance interests me because I tend to be of the camp that great wrestling is great wrestling. I do agree that context will enhance the great matches, but generally speaking I think a great match in 1993 should still be a great match in 2015. If it isn't I'm not sure I can really call it a great match. From this perspective the idea of someone being "dated" really hurts them in my eyes because it means they aren't timeless. What you have done is suggest that this was a conscious choice by Toyota. I'm not at all sure that is true, and typically I would argue that I'm not sure it really matters, but it does speak to the discussion of intent/thinking in the ring that Matt D often raises. My question is why do you believe this was a conscious choice by Toyota, rather than her just doing what she knew how/liked to do? How would you make that argument to someone? I am someone who will include at least some Joshi workers on their list, but Toyota isn't even on my radar. I'm not sure your answer to this would put her there, but it might make me willing to go back and watch a few more matches if nothing else.

I think it was a conscious choice because it was a departure from what she was doing in the early stages of her career. If I watch a Toyota match from 1989-1991, I'm going to see someone who could deliver a good or even great match, but I'm not going to see someone who makes such a lasting impression that I think about where I rank her on a list like this. Part of that is that she gained confidence and charisma when she decided, "This is who I am", which in turn made her more memorable. What I would recommend to see where I'm coming from is to watch these matches:

Manami Toyota vs Toshiyo Yamada (12/09/89)

Manami Toyota vs Yumiko Hotta (06/17/90)

Manami Toyota vs Akira Hokuto (01/11/91)

and then watch these matches:

Manami Toyota vs Toshiyo Yamada (08/15/92)

Manami Toyota vs Yumiko Hotta (09/03/95)

Manami Toyota vs Akira Hokuto (08/21/93)

It makes for a sharp contrast with the same opponents and shows that some very deliberate choices about how to work were definitely made along the way. If that wasn't the case, I would infer that the "after" matches would more greatly resemble the "before" matches.

 

3. You haven't really answered this before that I recall, but I am curious how you feel about my general "all styles aren't created equal" position? In the context of this thread what I am really asking is EVEN IF you believe Toyota created and mastered a style, how much should that matter if you see it as a grossly inferior style? I'm not even making that judgment myself (though early on I tried to watch a fair amount of 90's Joshi and was shocked by how "eh" I found a lot of it to be on rewatch), I'm just curious about how this applies in your thinking when trying to rank a wrestler. Is the success of the style germane? If not why not?

I agree that all styles aren't created equal. If you see it as an inferior style, it probably shouldn't matter much. I'm framing it more in the sense of being daring and taking chances that often stick and often don't, as opposed to working a style that's built to last. Toyota's case is one of attitude as much as it is outcome. If you want a punk analogy, it's similar to the numerous bands who have written and performed great songs that can't play very well.

[Childs]

It was an excellent post, and Toyota is one of the ultimate tests of that tension you've described between personal preference and some kind of objective greatness. I could not imagine holding greater admiration for a wrestler I loathe watching most of the time. Her passion was off the charts as was her pure athletic engine. She was key to matches many people rate among the greatest of all time. It's a hell of a resume.

 

I think OJ has said there's essentially very little difference between Toyota and Kobashi. And I can see that; I really can. But for me, Kobashi walks right up to the line of doing too much and doesn't cross it in most of his big matches (well, he did more in NOAH). I respond to the greater impact of his offense and to his greater emphasis on selling. Toyota just loses me by pushing, pushing, pushing, to the point where she, more than anyone, turned me off to some of the most acclaimed matches in history. She inspires a unique combination of awe and dread.

 

Given that, I can't bring myself to vote for her. But I'm not entirely sure I'm right about that.

 

Along those lines, I'd be interested to hear what Dylan plans to do with Jumbo, whom he respects as a great wrestler but does not enjoy. What do you do do with that kind of candidate? it's one of the more interesting questions of the project.

[Loss]

I wanted to add that now that I think about it more, Toyota isn't really the best representative of DIY punk ethos for wrestling since she was classically trained. She's more of an art-punk type. She's the Patti Smith of wrestling.

[El-P]

She's the Patti Smith of wrestling.

 

I'm not the biggest Toyota fan around (although I do recognize her greatness in spots). But this is kinda insulting. Yeah, not a Patti Smith fan at all.

[Loss]

Ok then, she's the Talking Heads. Any art-punk choice would work there, but I thought a headstrong female might be a good comparison.

[GOTNW]

I was hoping we'd get a Toyota-Germs comparison and am very disappointed now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(I love talking heads too but......come on)

[Dylan Waco]

Toyota isn't Darby Crash

[donsem43]

As the decade wound down, Toyota started getting more conservative again. She wasn't completely back to her late 80s-early 90s self, but she added some veteran touches to her act to make it more enduring. She had the great, atypical match with Kandori. And she had what was one of my favorite matches of the decade against Kyoko Inoue in December of 1999. It wasn't a classic match, and I won't sell it that way. But it's one of wrestling's best examples of feeding many masters -- they gave far more breathing time to their stuff than usual, but they also stayed true to their series by working the types of fast-paced exchanges people expected from their matches. It wasn't their grand finale, but for the 90s it was, and I like to pretend that they never had another match, because it worked about as smart a match between two sprint-style workers who had a famous series could make their final match.

 

I have to slightly disagree with this. I won't deny that Toyota had a few smart, conservative performance but there have been more times that I've seen Toyota try to recreate her athletic prime to the detriment of the match. This mainly stems from that issue that Toyota was never very adaptive to her opponents. Most often she would force whomever she was working against to work her style of match, whether she had the ability to make that work or not. That's the one thing that keeps Toyota from being in that top tier of female workers, much less overall.

[Loss]

Do you think she did it in the matches I referenced? That was my point of reference:

 

Manami Toyota vs Shinobu Kandori (08/23/98)
Manami Toyota vs Kyoko Inoue (12/08/99)

 

I haven't seen a match from here that took place more recently than the 12/8 match.

[donsem43]

I'm not saying that your observations in those matches are wrong. I don't think they would bare out over a larger sample size of matches. Based on the Kandori match, you would think that she would be able to have a killer match with Mariko Yoshida, but their 11/25/01 match starts out as a style clash that turns into a no-selling spotfest. In her 9/18/06 match with Azumi Hyuga, she tries to work like she's in her prime but it's clear that she's lost a couple of steps. Never mind that Hyuga had moved on from working that style thus the match wasn't really playing to her strengths. Again, I'm not saying that she wasn't capable of those types of performances every once in a while, my favourite Toyota match is her vs. Kaoru Ito on 8/17/01 which is a similar type of performance. I just feel that she wasn't able to consistently be that type of worker base on what I've seen from the latter part of her career.

[Loss]

I was just curious. I'm not sure "interested" is the right word to describe how I'd feel about navigating Toyota's 2000s at some point, but if they fell into my lap, I wouldn't run away from them, for the curiosity if nothing else. I know she got praise for how she worked at Joshimania a few years ago, but at best, it sounds like she has been really uneven for the past 15 years.

[donsem43]

Well to me it's a minor point but something that I felt needed to be made. I personally don't want put much value on post peak work, especially for joshi workers. If you look at the whole career of someone like say Dynamite Kansai, you realize that she hasn't been a good worker for long time and that sullies a lot the great stuff that she has done. That kind of takes the fun out of it, at least it does for me.

[ohtani's jacket]

I totally agree that if Toyota had remained the solid worker she was from '89-91 she would have had a career not unlike Suzuka Minami. The others all had something going for them. Kyoko was charismatic and a joker. Hokuto had indomitable will power. Aja was bigger than everyone, and Yamada was a "shooter" and Chigusa clone. Even Hotta was like Omori mach 2. Toyota was a shy, soft spoken girl who needed to do something to stand out and that something was to go a million miles an hour and do moves no one else was capable of.

Don't forget that Toyota was 21 years old in 1992. How many all-time great matches do we know of that feature 21 year olds? If you watch some of the vignettes a lot of the girls are ridiculously immature outside of the ring, particularly the younger ones like Hasegawa, yet in the ring they're deadly serious. But we're still picking holes in the psychology and work of 21 year olds.

I think her work from '89-94 is enjoyable. I don't like her peak years '95 and '96, but I don't really like much about AJW as a promotion at that point and would rather watch GAEA and JWP. Her '97 and '98 post-peak work is more to my liking.

One thing that Loss didn't cover was that she played quite a good bitchy heel. I know she got praise for that during the brief AJW resurgence in '00-01, but it was present in her late 90s work as well.

[El-P]

I don't like her peak years '95 and '96,

 

It's been a while, but I'm not sure I would say 96 was still her peak. 95 without a doubt, but wasn't she slipping a bit by 96 already compared to her 93/95 work ?