Barry Windham

[Grimmas]

Discuss here.

[KrisZ]

I've made jokes lately about Barry Windham being in the Hall of Fame for terrible decision making but when it came to working in the ring he was easily one of the most natural guys of his era.

 

Barry was so damn good it was scary at times and he had the knack of performing at his best when it counted in the big matches against guys like Race, Flair, Luger, Dusty, etc.

[goodhelmet]

I should have the NWA DVDVR project wrapped up before this project finishes. I'll evaluate Barry then.

[elliott]

"HOF of bad decision making" is such a great line. What sticks out about Barry is that he excelled in every role he was put in. He looked great as a young guy climbing the ladder, he was great pushing Flair to the limit and then later he was great as a veteran. He was a terrific bumper and could sell and show vulnerability in spite of being a big guy. He could also work as a tough ass kicker. He could work face or heel. One of the best tag team wrestlers ever. I think Windham had all the tools to be a contender for best of all time. Obviously it never came together like that but Barry was still an exceptional worker. Probably a top 30 candidate for me.

[KrisZ]

I was just thinking of how eerie it is that the career paths of Barry & Dustin Rhodes were so similar for many years but Dustin's comeback over the past few years was something that Barry couldn't achieve which was sad.

[elliott]

Call me crazy but I always thought Barry could have been an American Jumbo Tsuruta. Which is weird when youu consider how bad their match against each other was. They were really good pretty much right away. They were tall guys who were obviously great athletes and moved around the ring really well. You can see a natural evolution in how they worked early in their careers to how they worked near the end of their relevancy. Something like Brisco vs Jumbo from 74 is to Barry/Race from Florida as Jumbo vs Misawa's punks is to Barry/Scorpio. I think Barry was a better tag worker and probably more versatile but I think Jumbo probably maxed out his enormous potential (or at least came close) while Barry never really did despite being similarly gifted (and still having a ton of great matches). Maybe it's just the similar body type. Not disagreeing with your comment about Dustin either but I wanted to mention that Jumbo/Barry comp because its something I always think about when I think of Windham.

[Childs]

I was amazed how bad that Windham-Jumbo match was the first time I saw it. Windham's another one who held a special place for me as a kid -- wrestled in the main event of the first live show I ever attended, TV match with Flair officially converted me to an NWA loyalist. I think of him as a Mickey Mantle type, where we make too much of his squandered potential instead of realizing he was awfully fucking good for longer than plenty of the nominees in this project. I give him a lot of credit for being a terrific babyface and then rapidly becoming an even better heel. Excellent tag worker but also a guy who delivered some epic singles main events. Mixed remarkable fluidity with being a credible asskicker. I don't think he produced the output to make my top 30, but he was too gifted and too versatile not to make my top 50.

[Timbo Slice]

Easy Top 50 guy. So good he made it look like he was coasting, when in reality he was just that good. Loved his tag team with Dustin, had one of the great all-time heel turns against Luger in 87 to join the Horsemen. The Flair matches were terrific. Even with him not living up to his "potential," he did more than enough to warrant being on the top half of my list.

[BigBadMick]

Bumping this because I think he's top 20 material for me, regardless of all the mishaps along the way.

[Parties]

Some days I feel like he's top 30, other times I have him closer to #80. His peak runs are truly brilliant and his Western States Heritage Title match with Murdoch is one of my all-time favorites. Love his Flair matches, love him as a Horseman, love him with/against Dustin, love him as beer-bellied Lone Wolf WCW champ defending against Scorpio at the Clash, love him as a guy telling stories on shoot videos. On any given night, he could look like - without hyperbole - the best wrestler in the world. Especially during that early '90s run. He is the world's greatest Kevin Nash, and had he not been his own worst enemy could have been the true ace of WCW through the '90s. Quite possibly the all-time squandered talent/wasted opportunity in wrestling.

[El-P]

I still enjoyed Windham as a New Blakcjack. Hell, I though he was still a really good worker in 99 in WCW when he was carrying those tag matches and working super well with Malenko & Benoit. That's how much I love WIndham. Hard to get an average placement for him though, but at his peak, he was better than Flair.

[shoe]

Just a stud. Top 20-30 for me. So versatile of a worker. The epitome of a guy who could do it all.

[Childs]

I arbitrarily re-watched some Windham matches last night and this morning.

 

Started with Battle of the Belts, which is one of Flair's greatest title defenses, and Barry's performance was every bit as good as Ric's. It was a showcase for how deep his bag of offense went, and how good his shit looked. Their 1/24/87 match holds a special place because it hooked me so profoundly when I was a kid. But this was pretty clearly a better match, with even the countout finish not coming off that shitty.

 

Then I watched the sequence of matches that led to his heel turn in '88, and that was such a simple, perfect run of storytelling. Everyone played his part effectively, but Barry carried the thing by fitting so naturally on either side of the fence.

 

I finished with the 6/6/92 match against Arn, which demonstrated how good Windham was with little touches on offense (like punching the arm he'd worked over even while Arn had him prone in a hold) and how effective he was selling selling limb work.

 

Anyway, no deep thoughts here. Sometimes it's just fun to remind yourself how good a favorite wrestler was.

[Wade Garrett]

Barry Windham is a lock for my Top-25. If there is one wrestler I'd like to fantasy book/manage from 88 forward it's Windham. By my design he woulda been the man in the first half of the 90's. With a few turns of the wrench (mentally/physically) you have an all-time contender.

[Eegah]

Its a long running discussion of what if when it comes to Windham but I say let's look at what he did. Obviously ridiculous levels of talent but I thought he did well throughout his career. Is it valid to say he didn't live up to his potential? Yes, it is. He still had a terrific career in the ring in all kinds of roles. Easily in my list and it will just be a matter of how high.

[funkdoc]

the yao ming of wrestling, always judged on what he was supposed to be

[Rah]

I mentioned in the Bryan Danielson thread that binge watching can (and does) hurt great talents. It happened with Finlay in Si Oem's stream channel, and it was starting to happen with Flair and Bryan. However, it didn't with Barry. I managed to get my hands on a 42 match collection of his a couple years back, after lurking through his thread in the PWO Microscope and wanting to see why he gets the praise he does. I was completely new to Barry, but I was hooked. I pretty much binged that entire pack in one sitting without once getting bored. He went from a literal nobody to placing 11th in my list. I love me some Windham. This is what I wrote up about him after watching the pack:

 

Throughout his career he was at least as good or, for the most part, better than the opponents he locked up against - which is a tremendous feat considering his list of opponents comes across as a who's who of 1980s wrestling. As a worker, it's hard to not compare Windham's peak to those of others who are acclaimed as all time greats. Flair may have offered Windham his greatest singles matches but I'd rather believe the onus is not on Flair elevating Barry's status but the amalgamation of both men's talents. Honestly, too, in a time when Flair seemingly ruled the world, Barry Windham looked the better wrestler. That statement may seem rather hyperbolic yet I don't think it's quite arguable that Flair and Windham were that different, at the very least.

In terms of his traits, Barry was both a sublime babyface that connected to both genders and all ages as well as a tremendous heel that had the crowd solidly against him once his turn happened. He was an excellent portrayal of character and his slow-turn in the 88-04-20 tag from babyface to full-blown heel lies as a standout moment, not only in his career but in wrestling as a whole. Also, despite his rather tall build, he was both agile and athletic which helped cement his ability to work toward the crowd either as a babyface (through quickness) or heel (in holding a legitimate air of dominance aided by a mean right hook). His ability was not only limited to singles matches, as he shined in tag team environs. When given the opportunity, Windham's face-in-peril or, conversely, hot-tag flurries were often the highlights of the matches in which they happened. His range in capabilities from working the mat to delivering terrific brawling is also another addition to his claim in being a completely well-rounded talent.

 

Seemingly, Barry Windham had it all - the look, the charisma and the talent yet lacks the recognition. Across a decade, Windham remained a consistent performer week-in and week-out and out of those matches watched, Windham did not have a single bad performance. Now, while I won't claim that he could never do any wrong (as this list is not fully inclusive of his entire career), that's still a rather incredible feat made even more impressive when you realise Barry was barely into his thirties in 1993. His top five matches are all, arguably, 5-star classics. Even the Wargames matches (despite being multi-men affairs) hold as examples to Windham's ability with the 1991 encounter offering a phenomenal start between Pillman and Windham.

 

 

[Jimmy Redman]

I think Barry is like the most talented wrestler who does absolutely nothing for me. I see him pimped all the time here, I've read all the arguments and the case, then I watch his matches and I mean...I even see how talented he is physically and it's not like I can disagree with anything people say about him I just...feel nothing. Like how I feel about Ted, but multiplied.

 

I like the Flair matches. I liked the Arn match from 1992. Every other time I see him I am just wholly indifferent to him. Perplexingly so, because like I said, he's talented and I can't really find anything wrong with him other than the fact that he doesn't interest me in any way.

 

Although there is that match he had with Dusty in 1988 that was so horrifying that it turned me off both guys for years.

 

I just don't know what to do with a guy like that. I don't like him, and I won't be ranking him at all, but I have no way of articulating why. It's frustrating on an intellectual level, but there it is.

[JerryvonKramer]

Jimmy, you aren't alone in that (as I've said on WTBBP lots of times) I've never quite got the hype around Barry. I mean he's got exceptionally smooth mechanics and the sweetest of all float-over suplexes, but the stuff Dylan is saying about emoting and character work -- whether he's a face or heel -- I just don't see at all. This is reflected in my rating of 3 for intangibles. Windham often looks glassy-eyed to me. I don't think his character work is strong. I don't think he has much star quality either, which is one reason -- and I hate to say this -- he never got over in the WWF to the level that guys like Ted and Rude did.

 

We are on a board where people can compare Jumbo Tsuruta to Terry Taylor with a straight face, so I wouldn't lose much sleep over it.

[BigBadMick]

Wow! You just couldn't leave out that second paragraph, huh?

[JerryvonKramer]

Well it's true. People see different things in the same material, so there's no point getting frustrated about it.

[Loss]

The glassy-eyed thing was one thing I loved about Barry Windham, especially because it played well when he was selling as a babyface.

 

I'd love to hear you break down what you didn't like about that Windham-Dusty match, Jimmy. If you are talking about the one from Bash '88, I thought that was very good.

[JerryvonKramer]

The glassy-eyed look is an asset to his selling as a babyface, I'd probably agree, but I thought it was odd that his facial expressions and general expressiveness were singled out (by Dylan I think) as particular strengths of his (I think this was in the DiBiase thread and comparison).

 

Do you agree with him that Windham excels at facial expressions and general expressiveness? I don't see that much at all. He always seemed to have that blank glassy stare to me.

[ohtani's jacket]

The Widowmaker gimmick wasn't exactly tailor-made. He was basically a blonde, more athletic version of Outlaw Ron Bass. When he did a similar sort of gimmick in '93 he was badass. I'm indifferent to a lot of his longer singles matches, especially where he's a babyface, but I love his early 90s heel work and he was a great tag wrestler.

[Jimmy Redman]

The glassy-eyed thing was one thing I loved about Barry Windham, especially because it played well when he was selling as a babyface.

 

I'd love to hear you break down what you didn't like about that Windham-Dusty match, Jimmy. If you are talking about the one from Bash '88, I thought that was very good.

 

I can't remember off-hand, so I'll pop it in and see what I make of it now.

 

All I remember is that it was Barry's black glove Claw, which I fucking hated.

 

The early going was fine, I enjoy Dusty bumping guys around so it was fun enough. Barry does bump, feed and sell really well, but we already knew that.

 

My first main problem is the transitions are either terrible or non-existent, especially in the middle third. Like, the story is Dusty killing Barry's back with big bumps outside, but these big bumps are completely fucking no sold. Dusty slams him on the concrete, and Barry sells the shit out of this, barely getting back in the ring and needing the ropes to stay up. Then he walks over to Dusty, starts punching him and goes back on offense. Even JR had to be all "what a miraculous recovery!" because one minute they were selling how dead Barry was, and then two seconds later he's fine.

 

Then they try it again when Dusty tosses him over the top rope to the floor, again a big bump that Barry sells the shit out of...for ten seconds. Then JJ distracts the ref and Barry runs over to Dusty and goes back on offense. Once again it was completely no sold. There were no transitions, no clear link between anything, it was just doing stuff with no thread tying it together.

 

Like, if you saw a twenty second GIF of Barry taking one of these bumps and then selling death, you'd think it was awesome. But the next thing that happens is Barry casually strolling over and punching Dusty again, as if he'd been on offense for the last five minutes and nothing had happened.

 

After this the Claw comes out and you completely lose me because I fucking hate the Claw, it's stupid. Then the obligatory Dusty finish and...eh. I didn't like this.