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Kiyoshi Tamura


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#21 ohtani's jacket

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Posted 25 October 2015 - 06:36 AM

It could be something I'm remembering strangely, but to me Volk would do walk-off home run finishes like the '95 bout I mentioned that were incredible to me. 



#22 El-P

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Posted 25 October 2015 - 07:17 AM

Volk Han was the Dan Kroffat of shoot-style in term of finishing stretches.



#23 Childs

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Posted 25 October 2015 - 08:04 AM

OJ (and anyone else), if you were doing a mini-ranking of Fujiwara, Tamura and Han, how would you have them?

#24 El-P

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Posted 25 October 2015 - 08:26 AM

Edit : as far as pure shoot-style matches go :

 

Tamura, clearly ahead.

 

Then, since Han doesn't have the longevity and Fuji was mostly great in both UWFs, it would be a toss up. Some goofy pro-style traits of Fujiwara (those headbutts...) could hurt him, but then again, longevity. So, I dunno.



#25 Childs

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Posted 25 October 2015 - 11:05 AM

I ended up looking at it as two different questions as well. I'll vote Fujiwara highest in GWE because his pro-style work was terrific. He was, at worst, the third best guy in '80s New Japan, with classic performances against Choshu, Inoki and in several multi-man matches. He had his pro-style moments in the '90s as well. Given that his best shootstyle performances were on the same level as those of Han and Tamura, the extra shadings in his resume put him over the top. 

 

But the question of best shootstylist is more difficult. Fujiwara was a founding father and maybe the founding father in terms of developing the best elements of the style. Han really pushed the form forward with his stylistic flair. Tamura synthesized some of the best elements of the other masters, pushed them to turbo with his unmatched motor and produced the highest sustained peak.

 

Fujiwara was the best seller/defender. Han produced the most exquisite moments. Tamura was the most impressive athlete.

 

Right now, I'd rank them Tamura, Fujiwara, Han. But my order might be different if you asked me in a month.



#26 ohtani's jacket

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Posted 26 October 2015 - 07:13 AM

This could change at the drop of a hat, but I'd go Fujiwara, Han and Tamura.

 

Fujiwara had the longest run (from '84-94) and had great shoot style matches in three different promotions (UWF, UWF II and PWFG.) Tamura was by far the most athletic of the three, but held back in UWF-i the same way Sano was. Han, on the other hand, was able to express himself freely. As I hinted to before, he had less to prove and wrestled with the same sort of sagely tongue-in-cheek style that you'd expect from a master schooling young apprentices. He was good and he knew it whereas Tamura was hell bent on proving the world wrong. 



#27 El-P

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Posted 02 November 2015 - 09:11 AM

So yeah, I was a shoot-style fan, and Tamura was the apex of the style. For that reason only, and for years of being awesome and pushing his style to the extreme, he'd be my #4 or 5.



#28 JerryvonKramer

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 03:38 PM

After Chad went so high with him, I watched a bunch of Tamura tonight to see if my dial had shifted at all on shoot style.

One observation- crowds were big and presentation seems real video gamey, especially the music which sounds lifted directly from the Capcom vaults (see Vader clip especially). I'm pretty sure I heard Ryu's theme at one point.

I watched him:

Vs. Takada
Vs. Vader
Vs. Anjoh
Vs. Yamazaki

Yamazaki bout seemed noticeably better and more engaging than the others to me, but what the hell do I know?

Has the dial moved? Not really. For me it's all way too tentative, tentative, feeling out, feeling out, strike!

The style is not boring nor indeed completely inaccessible, but it remains the case that it does very little for me.

#29 Tim Cooke

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 03:53 PM

His best matches were in RINGS

Can't think of an outstanding Tamura UWFI match except for the June 94 Vader match

#30 GOTNW

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 04:48 PM

I think there are shoot styles matches Parv could love but I don't think Tamura will do the trick. I'd be very surprised if you didn't think Masakatsu Funaki vs Tatsuo Nakano from 7/24/1989 was a great match. It has terrific heat, clearly defined roles and uses shoot style as a medium for a great brawl more than it is a shoot style match. I think it will be extremely accessible even for you and all the backstory you need is that the short chubby guy is a huge underdog. I don't expect you to ever love shoot style as a whole but that match really is something special and the submissions are used more as epic nearfalls than they are as a means of struggle.

#31 elliott

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 05:04 PM

His best matches were in RINGS

Can't think of an outstanding Tamura UWFI match except for the June 94 Vader match

 

 

 

I agree his absolute best matches were in RINGS but in terms of singles matches from UWFi....

 

vs Kakihara 91

vs Anjoh 91

vs Anjoh 92

vs Yamazaki 92

vs Takada 93

vs Sano 93

vs Kakihara 94

vs Vader 94

vs Albright 94

vs Yamazaki 95

 

all stand out to me as outstanding. I dunno what to do with the Sakuraba series as it is full of outstanding moments even though there isn't an absolute blow away MATCH.

 

There are some tag matches too worth watching for sure. Again, nothing on the level of the Han, Yamamoto, etc matches. But there is definitely some really great stuff in UWFi.



#32 elliott

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 05:14 PM

One observation- crowds were big and presentation seems real video gamey, especially the music which sounds lifted directly from the Capcom vaults (see Vader clip especially). I'm pretty sure I heard Ryu's theme at one point.
 

 

Wasn't there a Street Fighter character based on Volk Han? Did I hallucinate that (very possible).



#33 elliott

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 05:51 PM

Also Parv, did you not like the Vader match???



#34 pol

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 07:18 PM

I suspect a lot of the music you're hearing is overdubs for the comm tape releases. It is awesome though.

 

The presentation of RINGS was even more fighting gamey, right down to the "Vs." screens with Tekken-esque announcer before each fight.



#35 JerryvonKramer

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Posted 30 March 2016 - 04:49 AM

Also Parv, did you not like the Vader match???


Not especially. I have Flair vs. Vader, one of the few matches ever to make me cry at about ***1/2 and I thought the Tamura match had less drama and excitement than that. It's very had to get into all the psyche-out stuff. In any other wrestling match that is down time, in these shoot matches it is actually about 50% of the body of the match. Those speculative kicks to Vader's leg, for example, is that meant to be offense that has connected or offense that is being deflected? I couldn't really tell. And then the match is over. That's my experience with a lot of this stuff. Match spends a long time in feeling out and then as soon as it gets going, it's over. I get what they are going for, but it's a form of storytelling that fails to elicit much interest from me. I've seen a fair few of the RINGS matches, including those vs. Volk Han. I will say that the strikes are more satisfactory in that setting and the pace is faster, but I'd still have the same general observation. It's a game of waiting for the moment to hit the right precision strike or lock on the right submission finish.

PS. I don't know if you listened to the WTBBP special where we do our GWE lists, but you should for the tribute promo Chad cuts on you at one point.

#36 pol

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Posted 30 March 2016 - 12:30 PM

Maybe I'm alone on this, but I don't really consider shoot style a form of wrestling that emphasises narrative. I'm more looking for interesting/aesthetically pleasing work than a story. I guess a general ramping up of drama/intensity would be as close as it gets to that. I feel the same way about lucha to a lesser extent.



#37 concrete1992

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Posted 30 March 2016 - 02:04 PM

Maybe I'm alone on this, but I don't really consider shoot style a form of wrestling that emphasises narrative. I'm more looking for interesting/aesthetically pleasing work than a story. I guess a general ramping up of drama/intensity would be as close as it gets to that. I feel the same way about lucha to a lesser extent.

Shoot style sort of cuts out the pretense of something I enjoy in wrestling: Watching strategies tried, failed, and adapted to. 



#38 Childs

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Posted 30 March 2016 - 02:14 PM

How does it cut that out?



#39 concrete1992

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Posted 30 March 2016 - 02:20 PM

How does it cut that out?

A more traditional match can muddy that idea with other narratives at play while I feel shoot style seems to cut the fat and gets right to two combatants trying to implement strategies. 



#40 fxnj

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Posted 30 March 2016 - 03:32 PM

I think shoot style is a lot easier to appreciate if you have experience with jiu-jitsu or a similar form of grappling. Traditional style is presented as 90% strength and conditioning with guys powering through holds and trading finishers. Shoot grappling and, by extension, shoot style is 90% technique, so in that respect it's the most built around strategy of all styles. It may not be something an 8 year old would get but, the strategy element consumes the whole match with things like positioning, weight distribution, prediction, etc. I'm not saying you need to go join an MMA gym to get shoot style but just watching something like a Gracie Breakdown or basic BJJ tutorial on YouTube could go a long way in showing how there's far more to shoot style than lucha style flashiness.




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