Jump to content


Photo

Nick Bockwinkel


  • Please log in to reply
78 replies to this topic

#61 soup23

soup23
  • Moderators
  • 9887 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 10 March 2016 - 09:07 AM

Comparing Bock vs. Flair 80's as their two respective peaks seems fair. I know for me that makes it a pretty easy choice and this is someone that enjoyed Bock greatly during the AWA set. 



#62 Loss

Loss
  • Admins
  • 43381 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 10 March 2016 - 09:24 AM

Why can't we think of prime Bockwinkel as the 80s and treat 70s Bock like 2000s Flair?

 

Those are directly inverse career trajectories. 



#63 Jetlag

Jetlag
  • Members
  • 952 posts

Posted 10 March 2016 - 11:49 AM

Wait people hate long NWA style matches now? When did that happen? Bock vs. Jumbo from Hawaii was like that and it's my favourite Bock match by a mile.



#64 JerryvonKramer

JerryvonKramer
  • DVDVR 80s Project
  • 11316 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 10 March 2016 - 11:58 AM

Wait people hate long NWA style matches now? When did that happen? Bock vs. Jumbo from Hawaii was like that and it's my favourite Bock match by a mile.


I've heard several people in different places say that they no longer really have the patience for that style of longer, slower NWA match.

#65 Grimmas

Grimmas

    a Wrestling Feminist

  • Members
  • 7725 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Posted 10 March 2016 - 02:43 PM

 

Why can't we think of prime Bockwinkel as the 80s and treat 70s Bock like 2000s Flair?

 

Those are directly inverse career trajectories. 

 

So? One is a great peak and the other is a down period for the guy. It just happens to be at different ends of their careers. Why not treat them the same?



#66 WingedEagle

WingedEagle
  • Members
  • 5071 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 10 March 2016 - 03:25 PM

 

 

Why can't we think of prime Bockwinkel as the 80s and treat 70s Bock like 2000s Flair?

 

Those are directly inverse career trajectories. 

 

So? One is a great peak and the other is a down period for the guy. It just happens to be at different ends of their careers. Why not treat them the same?

 

 

Sarcasm or you believe this?



#67 Matt D

Matt D

    4:40

  • Members
  • 10161 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 10 March 2016 - 03:27 PM

I don't think that it's productive to assume that Bockwinkel didn't have an overall strong 70s. My worry would be in a totally different direction than Parv's.

#68 Grimmas

Grimmas

    a Wrestling Feminist

  • Members
  • 7725 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Posted 10 March 2016 - 05:18 PM

 

 

 

Why can't we think of prime Bockwinkel as the 80s and treat 70s Bock like 2000s Flair?

 

Those are directly inverse career trajectories. 

 

So? One is a great peak and the other is a down period for the guy. It just happens to be at different ends of their careers. Why not treat them the same?

 

 

Sarcasm or you believe this?

 

A question. One guy got great earlier and then when his athletics failed him had a down period. The other took longer to get great, but once they did they stayed great until they retired. What is wrong with treating a slow starter to a slow finisher?



#69 Childs

Childs
  • Moderators
  • 4392 posts

Posted 10 March 2016 - 05:24 PM

I'm not seeing how this discussion has much to do with Bockwinkel. The issue isn't that he was a lesser worker early in his career; it's that we don't really know.



#70 JerryvonKramer

JerryvonKramer
  • DVDVR 80s Project
  • 11316 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 10 March 2016 - 05:26 PM

I'm not seeing how this discussion has much to do with Bockwinkel. The issue isn't that he was a lesser worker early in his career; it's that we don't really know.


There is a good chunk of 70s Bock on tape. Like at least to fill about 7 or 8 discs I'd say, if not more. As much as there is of, say, Jack Brisco period.

#71 Childs

Childs
  • Moderators
  • 4392 posts

Posted 10 March 2016 - 05:39 PM

There is and I get that, but in terms of age, Bock's '65-'75 are the equivalent of Flair's '80s, and we can't do a remotely fair comparison between the two. That's a significant issue when we're trying to figure out the top of the ballot. Maybe Bock's last six years were his best but I can't say that with any confidence.



#72 Matt D

Matt D

    4:40

  • Members
  • 10161 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 10 March 2016 - 05:46 PM

It'd be a bigger problem for me if I was trying to put anyone over him.



#73 WingedEagle

WingedEagle
  • Members
  • 5071 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 10 March 2016 - 05:52 PM

 

 

 

 

Why can't we think of prime Bockwinkel as the 80s and treat 70s Bock like 2000s Flair?

 

Those are directly inverse career trajectories. 

 

So? One is a great peak and the other is a down period for the guy. It just happens to be at different ends of their careers. Why not treat them the same?

 

 

Sarcasm or you believe this?

 

A question. One guy got great earlier and then when his athletics failed him had a down period. The other took longer to get great, but once they did they stayed great until they retired. What is wrong with treating a slow starter to a slow finisher?

 

 

Because they are not remotely the same thing.



#74 Grimmas

Grimmas

    a Wrestling Feminist

  • Members
  • 7725 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Posted 10 March 2016 - 06:43 PM

I think it's fair some people are better in their physical peak, while others are better after they have gained a lot of experience.



#75 JerryvonKramer

JerryvonKramer
  • DVDVR 80s Project
  • 11316 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 10 March 2016 - 06:50 PM

I'm not saying in any single way that Bock was worse in the 70s, I'm saying that knowing how people are low on stuff like early 80s Jumbo and how there has been a general shift away of liking hour long matches and slower bouts in our little corner of the fandom -- and why not name names, Phil Schneider and Will, would be two pretty influential and highly respected guys in that camp -- there might be a shift in perception that Bock was a bit boring.

Like I know, for example, that some people were lower on him in Japan in general (outside of the Robinson match), and that is partly cos he was working those longer matches in the slower style.

Less a comment on Bock's ability and more an idea about the general tastes of our voter base.

And I know there are still guys around -- Pete, Childs, OJ, me, many others -- who still don't mind watching these styles of matches. But I don't think it can really be denied that there's been a slight shift towards shorter, more intense bouts and brawling over the past however many years. Which is probably why Stan Hansen is going to replace Jumbo as the #1, you could see that as symbolic of that broader shift.

#76 Matt D

Matt D

    4:40

  • Members
  • 10161 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 11 May 2016 - 12:34 PM

Dotdotkins posted a stitched together 58 minute Brunzell vs Bockwinkel match. I do think we've had it in parts previously, but not put together like this. I'm still a few days from being able to check it out though.



#77 Matt D

Matt D

    4:40

  • Members
  • 10161 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 11 May 2016 - 04:34 PM

Ok, so on second thought, I found time. There are about two minutes cut out but anyone who's seen a decent amount of Bock knows what it probably was (Brunzell ending the Bock control/KOTM segment with a revenge leg posting from the outside, a minute of legwork, into the figure four that we come back to). 
 
I really liked it. There was a point around the 48 minute mark where I thought maybe they should go home, but they transitioned into some backwork a couple of minutes later and Bock being vulnerable made it work towards the finish. 
 
It's hard to talk about a 60 minute match in a few sentences and I don't have the time to break the whole thing down. This is probably Brunzell's career match that we have on tape. He's got the Jumbo match and some really great High Flyers matches but he definitely held his own here. The selling was great from start to finish, both the dueling arm/leg limb selling, including in really logical ways while on offense. I think there are discernible chapter breaks that build off of what came before instead of forgetting or ignoring it, with callbacks and selling between chapters (though not where it would no longer make sense or matter, but far more than you'd get from a lot of similar matches, especially from Bockwinkel). The late match selling over the last twenty minutes or so, the exhaustion and desperation is really great. I'm not sure anyone is better at selling of cumulative damage than Bockwinkel and while we see that in 30-40 minute matches,we rarely get to really see it in 60 minute matches and he's the best at it. 
 
Very curious what other people think even though I know some people have seen at least part of this before.

#78 khawk20

khawk20
  • DVDVR 80s Project
  • 2315 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 11 May 2016 - 09:04 PM

Wow! Huge find. Only 35 minutes has been available previously.

Awesome.

#79 conker8

conker8
  • Members
  • 245 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 08 August 2016 - 06:29 AM

Just a taste of what we DON'T have:

 

2/20/64 Medford

Card held at the Armory

1. Tony Borne beat Pedro Lopez

2. Bobby Duranton defeated Don Duffy

3. Mad Mongol & Haru Sasaki defeated Paddy Barrett & Nick Kozak

MAIN EVENT

In a 2 out of 3 Falls match for the NWA World Heavyweight Title

4. Lou Thesz drew with Nick Bockwinkel when Bockwinkel tied Thesz one fall a piece and the 3rd fall ended at the 60:00 minute mark to make it a draw 

 

---

Bock was going for the NWA title as early as 64. Just think about that.

 

He faced Buddy Rogers for the NWA Belt.

 

07/25/61 Dallas, TX Nick Bockwinkel lost to Buddy Rogers (NWA World champion)






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users