Atlantis

[Grimmas]

Discuss here.

[Graham Crackers]

He was a talented rookie when he first started getting put into a position where he could have great matches. The thing is that the great matches frequently involved tremendous wrestlers. When you watch Atlantis vs Satanico it's easy to imagine that he was some sort of prodigy but if you watch his match against El Faraón he looks exposed. El Faraón was a good wrestler in his own right but his leash on Atlantis wasn't as tight. Atlantis has moments of brilliance in that match but his hammy selling and awkward crowd interaction is too much for me.

 

In the late 80s he really put it together. His selling became more subtle and his appeals to the crowd were a bit more assured. On top of that his offense became truly spectacular. He has some impressive flying offense in his 1983 tag with Santo but the stuff he was doing in 1988 was so much more precise. He's a great trios worker during this time but I wish I could see more of his singles performances. His 1988 match against Emilio Charles Jr. is a great workrate lucha match.

 

In the 90s he toned down the highflying and improved his matwork. He was also lucky enough to have a number of programs against some of the greatest wrestlers of all time. His matches against Blue Panther and Villano III in particular are classics. I think I'll need to revisit some of his rudo stuff from the 2000s. I remember liking that heel turn match against Santo but I'm not sure if anything else holds up.

 

Atlantis is a wrestler I expect to have a strong showing, especially amongst people who like lucha. He's a step below the elite tier but he's elevated by having worked with them.

[ohtani's jacket]

I'd say Atlantis' peak was '88-91. During that peak he was one of the best technico workers I've seen and really one of the classic masked luchadores of the era alongside Lizmark, Solar and El Hijo del Santo. The fact that he was such a good worker on the technico side is a big plus for me because often he's completely holding up that side. I disagree that he was raised to the level of the great rudo workers; I think he was legitimately outstanding during that period, and in fact I would give him more credit for giving Blue Panther great matches than vice versa since Panther wasn't as good a singles match worker as people think.

 

There's a large chunk of his career that I don't care about, which is a problem. I wish he'd shown up in maestros matches more often.

[Phil Schneider]

Atlantis v. Ultimo Guerrerro was a classic on initial viewing. Got to help his case

[W2BTD]

Atlantis v. Ultimo Guerrerro was a classic on initial viewing. Got to help his case

 

This is not to slight Atlantis in any way, because he was good in the match, but UG was much better here. I thought he was great.

[Timbo Slice]

I was going to have him on my list because of the Villano III match and me just generally enjoying him in random matches I've seen him in, but I'm with Phil on tonight's match helping his case. A real treat to watch and even though he wasn't as active in the match as UG was, his timing was tremendous. Can't see him not making my list.

[Eduardo]

Here's the match from earlier tonight: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x26agzp_atlantis-vs-ultimo-guerrero-mask-vs-mask_sport

 

I'm with Phil, and I think it was Atlantis' presence and performance what really made tonight's match special.

 

I hope one day Will makes an Atlantis compilation.

[Graham Crackers]

Here's the match from earlier tonight: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x26agzp_atlantis-vs-ultimo-guerrero-mask-vs-mask_sport

 

I'm with Phil, and I think it was Atlantis' presence and performance what really made tonight's match special.

 

I hope one day Will makes an Atlantis compilation.

My stream crapped out on me last night (but I got to see Cavernario vs Rey Cometa which was great) do hopefully I'll get to watch this later. Thanks for posting the link.

[Grimmas]

You can't have the match you had last night, the match you had with Villano III in 2000 and all of the other great stuff from before and in between without making my top 15. I'm really going to have to focus on him, because this is insanity to me.

[Dylan Waco]

I like Atlantis, but I'm not sure id have him as a top 15 luchador

[BillThompson]

I'm eagerly anticipating making the time for the Ultimo Guerrero match, and as of right now he's a low end top 100 guy. Smooth in the ring, and a real tremendous understanding of placement of moves and ring positioning.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

Just watched the Atlantis/Ultimo Guerrero match. Thought it was great, but that finish... Definitely took the shine off it a bit for me. I like Atlantis, but I want to like him more than I actually do. I think I prefer him just doing flashy stuff in trios matches to working big emotional singles matches. I've still got a ways to go on him though, so we'll see how high he can make it up my list.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

Having dug a bit deeper into Atlantis, I'm not sure I'd say his peak stuff is better than Angel Azteca's peak stuff. But, of course, it seems that Atlantis has been able to perform at a high level for much longer than Azteca. 30 years of high-level output is certainly impressive, and makes him a lock for my list, though I'm not sure where he'll fall. I'll add to my earlier statement about preferring his work in trios to his emotional singles matches by saying that I find him to be very good in title matches. I guess my main problem with him is that I don't always find him believable in the way he portrays hatred. It often seems forced and hokey to me. That said, I have since found performances that go against that assertion. There's a trios match post his mask match against Kung Fu (and you'll have to forgive me not remembering who is involved off hand) where Kung Fu attacks Atlantis out with his nunchukas before the bell, which takes Atlantis out of the entire first caida. He comes back in the second caida and just unleashes beautiful fury on Kung Fu. Another good hate-filled Atlantis match I saw was from 2006 (I think) against Perro Aguayo Jr. They really went at each other, and I really bought into it. When I consider everything I've seen of him, that he was in what I thought was the best trios on the Lucha set, his early 90s work with Blue Panther and Emilio Charles Jr amongst others, the Villano III match, the Ultimo Guerrero match (finish excepting), and the fact that he has stood out in so many of the trios matches I've seen, I can't see him falling outside of my top 50.

[Badlittlekitten]

In the late 80s he really put it together. His selling became more subtle and his appeals to the crowd were a bit more assured.

 

I'm glad to see this. I'm new to Atlantis and lucha in general. I've just finished watching him vs Satanico and was about to post a rant about how Atlantis' constant need for crowd approval and his awful backyarder selling stopped a good match from being fairly great. I hope he turns me round cos I kinda hate him at the moment.

[goc]

You started too early on Atlantis, he's very hateable in that match but he gets a lot better.

[Graham Crackers]

 

In the late 80s he really put it together. His selling became more subtle and his appeals to the crowd were a bit more assured.

I'm glad to see this. I'm new to Atlantis and lucha in general. I've just finished watching him vs Satanico and was about to post a rant about how Atlantis' constant need for crowd approval and his awful backyarder selling stopped a good match from being fairly great. I hope he turns me round cos I kinda hate him at the moment.

 

You're gonna HATE that El Faraón match.

[ohtani's jacket]

On Twitter, Dylan had a list of 20 or something lucha workers he thinks are better than Atlantis, but I can't find it. It's highly possible that there are, but I'd like to see the list again.

[JerryvonKramer]

From the disc and a half I watched of 80s lucha, I preferred him to El Canek.

[Eduardo]

On Twitter, Dylan had a list of 20 or something lucha workers he thinks are better than Atlantis, but I can't find it. It's highly possible that there are, but I'd like to see the list again.

 

tomk had a good defense of Atlantis on Twitter.

 

Love Dylan, but just couldn't agree with most of his list. Obviously guys like Santo, Casas, Satanico blow away Atlantis, but even though I like Psicosis, don't see him anywhere near Atlantis' level.

 

Atlantis does have his fair share of boring, mundane work. Some of his selling in the 80's would makes Ricky Steamboat look like subtle seller. But he's been involved in great matches in the 1980's, 1990's, 2000's, and 2010's. He's had incredible sprints with high flying, great apuesta brawls, great title matches, and just all around great trios work. You aren't going to find some neat, nuanced stuff from him like you would Casas or Satanico at their peaks, but you are going to find some great matches.

 

He is also a guy that is arguably Blue Panther's best dancing partner. There are trios matches that involve Santo, Casas, Atlantis and Panther, and the best work in those matches was often Panther-Atlantis. And it was hardly Panther carrying him. Atlantis brought a lot to those matches.

 

EDIT: Forgot that OJ mentioned the Panther bit earlier.

[ohtani's jacket]

I managed to find the list with some random googling:

 

Casas, Dandy, Panther, EHDS, Satanico, Fuerza, Pirata, Virus, Terry, Navarro, Fiera, Charles Jr., LA Park, Chicana, Solar, V3

 

Worth discussing.

[ohtani's jacket]

Regarding Atlantis' selling in the Satanico and Faraon bouts, I don't particularly like it either, but it's worth noting that it's from his first two years doing the gimmick and that we don't have a lot of footage from other lucha great teething years. I would also argue that there are times when the other lucha greats have had embarrassing selling such as rudo Blue Panther.

 

Far worse are Atlantis feuds such as the Kung Fu and Mano Negra ones during a period where he was barely post-prime. The latter was especially disappointing. That work during the CMLL dark years really sucked.

 

EDIT: The Kung Fu feud wasn't even post-prime. I just felt like emphasising how bad it was.

[Graham Crackers]

I managed to find the list with some random googling:

 

Casas, Dandy, Panther, EHDS, Satanico, Fuerza, Pirata, Virus, Terry, Navarro, Fiera, Charles Jr., LA Park, Chicana, Solar, V3

 

Worth discussing.

I definitely agree with him on Casas, Dandy, Panther, Santito, Satanico, Pirata, Virus, and Chicana.

 

I wish I could agree about Villano III but I feel like we're missing the footage that would really make that case. Same with Solar.

 

The strength of Black Terry's 2009-2011 had me considering placing him above Atlantis but I ultimately think they'll be at a similar level.

 

I'd have Navarro a step below Terry but I feel like his 80s stuff has been so disappointing. Undecided on his placement in relationship to Atlantis.

 

I need to spend more time thinking about Fuerza and Fiera. I could see them ahead of Atlantis but I'm not sure about that yet.

 

Atlantis is an incredible babyface trios worker which makes comparing him to Charles particularly interesting as he's a similarly incredible rudo trios worker. That may make Charles a more valuable worker in trios matches but Charles doesn't have the singles matches that may inevitably push Atlantis ahead of him.

 

Undecided on Park. I need to watch done more AAA.

[Matt D]

I really don't have a good sense of Villano III.

[ohtani's jacket]

I managed to find the list with some random googling:

 

Casas, Dandy, Panther, EHDS, Satanico, Fuerza, Pirata, Virus, Terry, Navarro, Fiera, Charles Jr., LA Park, Chicana, Solar, V3

 

Worth discussing.

 

Casas, Dandy, Panther, EHDS and Satanico I think most people would agree with. Panther is probably the weakest of that group as there are stretches of his career I don't particularly like, but as a wrestler he is more skilled than Atlantis.

 

As a performer, Fuerza is probably better than Atlantis, but if you stacked the best of Atlantis up against the best of Fuerza I'd say it's pretty even. The same is true for Morgan and Emilio. They're in a tier of workers who look good in trios matches but don't have as many memorable singles performances. Morgan's peak on tape is short and Emilio was never the greatest singles worker. Pirata and Fuerza were better apuesta workers than Atlantis, but I think the Panther matches are better than any title bouts I've seen from those rudos. Having said that, Fuerza was carrying guys like Misterioso and Octagon. Still, I'd have them pretty even and mostly at the same level.

 

Solar I could see being better than Atlantis if we had enough footage to go on. I always envision Atlantis being in the same lineage as guys like Solar and Lizmark (i.e. classic masked tecnicos.) A few more title bouts from any point in Solar's career prior to the Navarro series would cement it in my eyes, but like Villano III there is a footage issue. If you take the Villano III footage at face value (i.e. what we have) then it's not better than Atlantis' stuff. Reinvented Negro Navarro (circa 2006) is one of my favourite all-time workers. Based on skill level he blows Atlantis away. But there's no way it's a long enough or strong enough run to put him over peak Atlantis. Terry is the same. On talent both might make my top 10, but if Atlantis worked the maestros circuit more then he might have a whole extra layer to his work as well. It's kind of hard to punish him for having a thirty year relationship with the same company. Chicana doesn't have enough footage and would need someone to properly re-evaluate his 90s output for me to consider him better than Atlantis unless you're talking about presence or charisma. Virus has a whole chunk of his career no-one pays attention to between his minis work and his latter day title match rep, but again appears to have more natural wrestling ability. Parka is kind of the opposite; not as much wrestling ability but a better brawler. Fiera is a guy I'm starting to appreciate more, but as a sleazy rudo and apuesta match worker and not really based on technique.

 

I would be tempted to put the tiers like this:

 

Casas, Dandy, Panther, EHDS and Satanico

 

Atlantis, Fuerza, Morgan, Emilio

 

Navarro, Terry, Solar, Chicana, V3, Virus

 

Fiera, Parka

 

If it were based on wrestling skill the order would be different:

 

Satanico, Dandy, Navarro, Panther, Solar, Virus

 

EHDS, Casas

 

Atlantis, Fuerza, Emilio, Morgan, V3

 

Fiera, Parka, Chicana, Terry

[GOTNW]

The La Sombra mask vs mask match was outstanding and is my current MOTY so that's another feather in his cap.